The Way of the Dojo:

[Vaul]

I accept your apology, where ever it might be, but I'll read between the lines No problems.

Back on topic shall we?


[quote name='Liberty4life' post='18138' date='Oct 9 2008, 01:22 PM']i didnt tried to say that your observation should be discarded i was trying to say that it was already seen and suggested a way to fix it, the same one you suggested[/quote]

Ok, I pointed out a problem about the dojo information system and it has been observed before. Done.

I observed several other things however (which have been seconded as "new"), and I would like them commented.


[quote name='Liberty4life' post='18138' date='Oct 9 2008, 01:22 PM']i still dont get this, so what if you dont want to follow rules, you attack players, dojo staff permits you to attack, when spell wears off, later you came back when there is no dojo staff online and attack again, i still dont see it as problem, btw i think it will work in that way, but dont believe me much because i dont know it, it just an assumption[/quote]

I would like to explain it further to you. If you give powers to some players that nobody else has, and if you call those special players "officials" - then you have made the dojo "official", and it becomes part of the game rules.

On several occasions you have said that the dojo will not become part of the game rules. It has been sanctioned by the creator, but it is not implemented as a game rule. Can you see the contradiction? If there are officials with special duties and powers about the dojo, then the dojo becomes an official element of the game structure.

As I understand it, the dojo is based entirely on community decision. I would like to point out that this is not the consensus of the majotity of the gaming community, but rather those who have taken the initiative in the first place. This is great and I love the idea, as most players. BUT! There's alway a but isn't there? BUT it is not [b]mandatroy[/b]. This is a huuuge HOLE in the game, or rather - your dojo project. It is the very first thing that needs to be defined! It is the the basis of the whole project. Is the dojo mandatory (either now or in the future), or not?

It is completely inconsequential to discuss the details of the dojo system, such as punishment and information availability, until this vital question is answered! The answer to that question will answer numerous other questions. For instance, if the dojo is NOT mandatory, nor will it be made mandatory in the future, then what possible argument could support founding special officials and special powers that are concerned with the dojo?? If the dojo-supporters want to punish people who damage them, they can punish them on their own, they can organize, they can make their lists, they can do this or that but it's their [b]private matter[/b].

If the dojo IS to become mandatory, then we can talk about the punishment system by means of special officials with special options and powers... Without an answer to that -it simply can't be done in a normal stable system of rules, and that is the foundation of every community of people, be it a game or a state.

Is there anyone else who is in a position to answer this question? And I hope you agree that I have validly proved the contradiction, as well as you'll agree that there is no place for contradictions as the game becomes fully developed.

[Liberty4life]

well you are a lawyer, you see rules from different point of view thats for sure, i will tell you what i know and what i think about this

first off all i dont know much about this, so i cant give you full answer on everything you said

if i understood you good enough, dojo rules are to you part of game rules, but a less important ones, rules put by mur (game creator and developer) are also part of game rules but this rules are main rules, well from my point of view, mur's rules are only one game rules in there, i consider dojo rules (no matter what power dojo staff has) as society rules

so when i said that dojo rules wont became part of game rules i meant on rules set by mur

i think you get it what i mean, i hope others will answer to your other part of post

[Vaul]

Yes, your division corresponds with my understanding of the matter.

Here's a bit more of legal theory, I think it's useful in the development process...

A system can be categorized by defining its elements. Vital elements of a rule/obligatory system are:
- Who defines the rules and their transgressions?
- Who enforces those rules?
- How are the transgressors punished by the rule's enforcers?
(there's much more but this will do for our discussion, the rest if of a more scientific nature )


So how does this apply to our discussion?

1) [b]The game rules[/b] (set by the creator) are mandatory for all players, and transgression is punished by officials, whose authority and methods are derived from the game "law".

2) [b]The society rules[/b] (set by a bigger or smaller group of players) are not mandatory, and can only be tolerated by the officials if they don't interfere with the game rules. Based on consensus, it operates solely through the participation of willing participants. Transgression of these rules can be punished but that's between the participants and the transgressors - as long as it doesn't interfere with the game rules.

I hope the difference is clear enough, and that we can agree on these two categories about the nature of a stable system that can exist in the game.


The question remains - how does the dojo correspond to this division?

[Burns]

As you can imagine, the ideal society we all wanted to make of that place wouldn't need any rules at all, that's why the original intention of the dojo was a society project that IS GOING TO work just because everybody here is perfect and that's why everybody acts perfect.
before you start laughing about this (i know you will, we all know the really human nature), please accept that the dojo was set in a community totally different from the one we live in now (by living in i mean the game world, not any real state).
Before the dojo was there, there was NO, absolutly NO rule that wasn't enforced by mur, may it be directly or indirectly through his trusted rpc's and lho's, so we all assumed that there WERE no people who were potential transgressors of any rules. Our Garden of Eden fiction lasted long enough to make us try to set up the dojo and tell people about it and assume that they would honor the dojo by any means.

When the festival started (still a good bit before Vaul got here, i guess), the shallow roleplaying started and loads of new players started playing the game. At once, our perfect little world had some, maybe even many intruders who didn't give a crap about our rule to honor the dojo.
So we had to set up dojo guards who hunted the aggressors and beat them up to show them that they shouldn't attack in dojo. Vaul, as you ARE a lawyer, i guess you know everything about the history of law, for all the others here let's call this step the [i]primitve law[/i], in which the society helps itself with simple acts of revenge. There are certain rules, in our case [b]"Thou shalt honor the dojo"[/b], and everybody who doesn't stick to them will be tortured by the means the community has to offer.

Step by step, we see that this is leading nowhere (as it never did in history) and a kind of [i] archaic law[/i] starts exiting, and that's where Vaul's arguments start:
Troughout history, the "primitive law" was never efficient. We all live in eloquent societies where the state has the power to enforce laws and punish offenders. Sooner or later, this is what's going to happen to the dojo rule, just for the simple reason that mankind is too dumb to think of "the greater good". In the anonymity of the internet, breaking rules is even more easy to most people! Either there is a way to find some eloquent rule that will be laid down in the rules, or we stay with our primitive/ archaic laws, where either people use revenge to get "justice" or some amongst the people (usually the oldest or wisest) try to find solutions by talking it out when revenge is leading nowhere.
I think you will agree that we've tried it for long with our society rules, and if we want to stop offences efficiently, we will have to find another way.

So, to answer Vaul's question: the law system of the dojo is still in a process of growing up to the standards we know today and seems to be stuck somewhere in the 6th-7th century AD atm, so just be patient and don't get upset by those who are still trying to make the world an ideal place...

I would like to keep the illusions of our perfect little MD World, but in the long run, it's not going to work that way-.-

PS: i myself think that it's absolutley enough to have our primitve laws with occasional offences and punishments, but i assume that most of you (specially the dojo crew) want to put a stop on the offences, even if that means that we loose the society rule and hand it over to shoeps to make it a game rule and give the dojo crew effective spells to keep repeated offenders out of the dojo^^

[Liberty4life]

i fully agree with you burns, you said everything thats needed to be said

after all nothing (hmm i hope mur wouldnt read this XD ) is perfect

[Vaul]

A very nice analysis, well said.

So the "beatification" (shall we say haha) of the dojo is in progress. It is to be made mandatory, in due time?


Ok, I'm satisfied

[Burns]

It was always intended to be mandatory, at least in the way that nobody who goes there can attack anybody in there without asking for permission first.
Of course there's nobody forcing you to go there at all, we live in a free society
But once you are in one of the locations, you silently agree to the rules and will be punished if you break them repeatedly, first time with a pm about the ways of the dojo, second time with an angry pm about the ways, third time with a little act of revenge and if you either don't understand it or don't care, you'll get yourself on the list and will REALLY be punished^^

[STF]

[quote name='Sol' post='13879' date='Aug 17 2008, 07:16 PM'][b]Is it ok to attack idle players in the dojo.[/b]
Yes, but only if they left word that it was ok.[/quote]

guys... all the respect for helping the other players, but... the thing is that i cannot agree with not attacking (idle or not); if you do not want to be attacked you logout or stay in sanctuary.
anyways... those places are way too close to willow to even consider not thinking of them as places where i would not find players to attack.

peace :D

[maggot]

I do not think the dojo should be saying players silently agree to the rules of the dojo when they enter until the dojo is officially part of the game and enforced by game rules, not the players. It is like a community forcing its rules on another community.. and the other community was established first, too. What do you think some people feel about how you just take over an area that used to be free like all the others and make it your own to do whatever you want? Players should have the right to decide they don't care for the dojo or its rules, just like the dojo has the right to make up a list and create a community effort punish those players.. they are both valid ways of playing. It is like a realistic mini-society: you can try to cooperate with others or you can alienate yourself in pursuing selfish goals, each way has consequences and advantages. It is one of the reasons why I still like this game. Just don't say it is "mandatory" for a player to go by dojo rules in the game. It is definitely not (not yet), hence why some players don't.

[Burns]

i start liking maggot, that are some good points all over the forum^^

as you have said, those are two mini-societies. feel free to join whichever you want, or even start up your own if you want ( and find a way between attacking and not-attacking... ), but don't try to tell the other side what they should do! You are fully free to play according to the rules the dojo-society lives with or not, but the dojo-society is there, and it's a huge part of the users, and if you rebel against them you will have to take their revenge. compare it to a city and it's gangs: it would be the same if the dojo-community was a real small group, they would still claim the marble dale park to be their territory and try to keep aliens out of there by all means, and to them, those rules are absolutely "mandatory".
i guess you have read most of the posts here, so i guess you already know all the arguments that were brought into the discussion. mankind always claimed parts of the earth as "their land" and often fought huge wars to defend the things we believed in, and it's the same with the dojo. there are enough users to keep that society up and they will try doing so until every single one of them falls or Mur tells them to stop the dojo :lol:

and if the dojo really was about to become mandatory to all, there would be no use for punishments, would there?^^
we assume that there will always be rebels like STF, no matter whether they have a cause or not, and that's the only reason why the staff wants some stronger means of punishing offenders, because they are all afraid of STF, he could kill most of the players who are trying to enforce the dojo with absolutely no troubles, and i guess he would have full support of dst and No One just for the fun of it =D

[dst]

I think you are right there . I do break a lot of rules for the fun of it. Hmmm...you gave me an idea...oh well...we shall see .

Serious now: I don't really agree with the dojo but I don't do anything against either. I just ignore it. It's better for me and for it. So let's hope I will continue doing this.

[STF]

my posts on this forum are scarce... and they are so because i only chose to post when something happens

in this case the thing that happened was one of the so called dojo defenders threatens me with pm. that is no good guys, you should know better how to promote the dojo.

what i can tell you from starters is that so far i outlived all the ones that started playing this game, and i do not intend to retire any time soon. the way i see it this dojo thing might be memory next year... but who knows

[Kragel]

saying that actions have consequences is not making a threat


and i want .Shoeps and Clayx to contact me as i am in a dream mode that i want to know if it is real

IF STF and .Morpheus. are the same person then trapping me in a dream mode for 72 hours is a severe abuse of power


one thing is for sure as a MP5 you may be stronger than most in the game STF but you are not stronger than all and i have the massages you sent we will splay them all out right here and show who was making threats saying they can do what they want

[Logan Marquis]

Calm down both of you...please...

First of all, I really could care less who you are, who you were, and how long you've been around. Let's just set that straight...

With that said STF...

Kragel, STF has a point. The Dojo, while being an official in-game tool for training, is not a rule-enforcing entity(yet). Which means he does have every right to attack as he sees fit, idle or not. Unfortunately, thems are the breaks in that regards.

However, STF, let me apologize to you if things have been mishandled by the dojo staff(i am not one of them and totally understand where you are coming from on this).

Really, all the dojo staff ask is that you respect their desire to have certain areas(designated) as dojos.

But please do not get upset with them if you go against those wishes and they request you to cease and desist.

As much as you have your right to do what you wish, since it is not breaking rules, they too have a right to request such things.

While this may not have been handled in the most koosh sense, I think this can be resolved in a better means than what has transpired.

[Kragel]

AGAIN I WILL STATE

saying actions have consequences is not making any kind of threat

everyone knows mur supports the dojo and its in the AL

but how can anyone back an abusive player who it making threats to the ones who are there only to help and try to make peace

[Logan Marquis]

I apologize if you misunderstood what I said. I am not backing either of you, but I am trying to help both of you to see certain sides of the argument here.

As of yet I cannot confirm nor deny he has abused any privalege or powers. But I am pretty sure it will get looked into on the off-chance this may be an issue to address.

But seriously, calm down. You getting all riled up will not solve anything, and probably make more people annoyed and upset than necessary.

[maggot]

rotfl. I am truly laughing now..

In the case STF has access to the account of morpheus and did this to you, which I have seen nothing to indicate, this is not abuse. Rpcs have no regulations, really, except they must be in the game developer's favor or else they'll be demoted.. and that is obvious anyway. They are basically gods of the game and can use their own judgment to guide their actions. The few people who protested "rpc abuse" not too long ago concerning a certain rpc named Ren were not responded to by game management except to be told that rpcs can do whatever they want, so regardless of what Ren did it was not abuse and the author of the thread should not have "complained." When the same few people tried then to get regulations in place by starting another thread, there was no reaction at all.

Have fun in dreamland.

[Liberty4life]

i dont know much on rpc abuse and we wont talk here about it, if you wanna discuss that open new topic

yea i agree, main dojo area (marble dale park) is toooooooo close to willows, now there are much more players at dojo than at willows, and its frustrating that players are RELAXING at dojo, more than 80% of them are there just to dont get killed, they are "abusing" dojo since they mainly use it as protection not as training place, so i dont wonder that lots of player get frustrated on that matter, also i agree that you dont have to be for dojo, you can be against, lets say ppl like STF and Jesous Faction (i am not sure of name) are one of oldest and strongest players which doesnt support dojo, so you new and weak ones which doesnt like dojo can talk to them and maybe get their protection from dojo enforcers, also there is some kind of anti dojo alliance so seeking them could also be of help to dojo haters

i dont like two things about marble dale park as dojo area, in background is that frustrating music and it is too close to willows so 50% of players do jump ins for hit&run, so they get one kill at willows and they are instantly back at dojo for protection, thats another dojo abuse

well dont get me wrong i am a big supporter of dojo but i really dont like that two big abusing problems of dojo
1)80% doesnt train at dojo they use it as sanct (calyx tried to stop this by allowing attacks at idle players but it doesnt help much because it is at so crowded and popular location)
2)50% do jump ins to willows so if you want to hunt that player down you need to break dojo rules and most players dont want to do it

you wont see this problems at defensive quarters or road of battles, only at marble dale park, and why is that? because willows is so close to it, moving dojo to new location in marind bell would solve all problems, i think dojo was mainly put at marble dale park because when you get out of story mode you get into marble dale park, but this players ont benefit from dojo, and here all misunderstanding starts from point that they dont know about dojo and they want all kind of signs and alerts which tells them this is dojo

in short it will be best for all that mur makes new location for dojo in marind bell, also glor damar is already working on artwork, so i hope it will be implemented very soon and i hope it wont be so close to all this crowded areas

[Daemonfaa]

You really need to get the rules across to new players, i was attacking people for my first few days and no one said anything. Then i have a nasty run in with someone called BlindGod and i end up being black marked for it

All this because I didn't have any idea what was going on

[xPo]

Yes Daemonfaa, I agree with you.

I attacked some players in the Dojo in the first days, but I didn't know what was the Dojo yet, but then one of the players I attacked explained me what it was and what was the purpose of it, and also gave me the link topic of the forum which talks about the Dojo.

Now I am also trying to help with the Dojo movement, cause I think it can be very important to some players.

When I get attacked in the Dojo, I always send a PM to that player, explaining what is the Dojo, and it's rules.

But there are those players that already know what is the Dojo, but keep attacking the others... Well, they are not forbidden of attacking there, but I think we could start saying to the players attacked on the Dojo, to write on the attackers log what happened, so that the others could know what he have done and also attack him, in the Dojo or not...

About those players that "abuse" Dojo, trying to get protection, I don't care about them, because they can be attacked there, it's not 100% sure they won't be attacked for those who don't support the Dojo idea. They can go to willow's to attack and then go back to Dojo, but then if they get attacked, we can always see the Battle log and the time of the attack's and see that if he was at the Dojo or not...

[STF]

[quote name='xPo' post='19743' date='Nov 12 2008, 02:04 PM']About those players that "abuse" Dojo, trying to get protection, I don't care about them, because they can be attacked there, it's not 100% sure they won't be attacked for those who don't support the Dojo idea. They can go to willow's to attack and then go back to Dojo, but then if they get attacked, we can always see the Battle log and the time of the attack's and see that if he was at the Dojo or not...[/quote]

Actually the log does not give info for others but only for the ones that are engaged with that fight. Hence, the fight logs are not public info.

[spoiler]Also, when activating the secret burst the logs of the won fights are erased.[/spoiler]

The log does not give you info on where the fight took place either.

For this matter the control over the dojo thing is a mouth to mouth job, trustful or not.

[xPo]

But you can see the time when the battle took place...

It happened to me once, one player attacked me, and I also attacked him... then he sent a PM saying that I attacked him when he was at the Dojo, but I saw the Battle log and the time of the battles where almost the same... I told him that and he agreed with me that I didn't attacked him on Dojo... You can also take a printscreen and send it to him...

I know it is not a good system to see if the attacks were made at the Dojo, but it can help...

[Yosarian]

I was playing for a few weeks now, been attacking people a lot, and yesterday was the first time I even heard that that place was the dojo. I had no idea.

I agree that it's not really a good place for a dojo; it's a high traffic area, people passing back and through there all the time, and it's right where newbies appear after story mode, so they will probably come out and start attacking long before they have any idea that that's supposed to be a dojo there. Besides, just from a storytelling viewpoint, I'm not really seeing how the center of town makes sense as a Dojo.

There's several places in there that people basically never have any reason to visit and mostly just sit there empty. Why not make one of them the dojo instead? Bring a little more of the game-world into play, less people randomally wandering through on their way somewhere else, plus it's something newbies find by exploring and such instead of just by not moving from their starting location.

[xPo]

Can we attack a player at the Dojo, if he is idle, without his permission???

[Grido]

no, you may only attack an idle player if they have left permission for players to attack them