Alpha 10, Opinions?

[Muratus del Mur]

I think the changes that happened in A9 are quite important. They changed the gameplay and also big concepts in MD.

Considering all the things added or changed in A9, including the ones during the festival, do you think it is time to declare MD at the next change?

Possible things that could still delay next stage could be factions getting done, tokens fixed. More wish shop items and achievements and other things are irrelevant because they are only "more" but not new.

Please review the A9 changes in the newslog and share your opinion about this. Also take into consideration how many changes of what importance were done between other game stages.

The next stage will be equivalent of v1.0, thats a BIG symbolic step. I do not wish to call it version 1 unfortunatly. MD has no versions, MD is constantly evolving. The next stage will be called Stage 10. or Epoch or whatever i will find better (a discussion about this was opened long ago)

The steps between such stages should be as if we are jumping MD from version 9 (not 0.9) to version 10.

Why do i put so much importance on a simple version number? Because this number tells me how far MD got, how stable it is, and how i should treat it emotionaly and rationaly. It also indicates what kind of things i will focus on, if i will think more about its fighting system, social system, role play system, or other things. It is very important for me to have accurate stage steps, not to long but not to hasty.

[awiiya]

I think the removal of RPCs is a huge step towards Version 10, but there is just too many loose ends to go into the next stage.

Like you said, I think more automation needs to happen before Version 10. Wish Shop is one of the major introductions of Alpha 9, and it's not yet complete, so I think Alpha 9 can't fully be done either. The more emphasis you put on the difference of Version 10, the less ready I think MD is for it.

The major things I think needs to complete are the King elections, the introduction of factions which will tie the lands further together, and the fixing of the battle system. With these three things I think we will see a much more separated MD, one in which there can be true rivalries, and rivalries breed fun and entertainment, and bring people together. Once there is a strong palpable sense of togetherness, and I'm not saying it doesn't exist in some weaker form now, then MD will have entered Version 10, one in which the focus is not the individual anymore (like the RPC stage, and all those before it), but the collective lands.

Awi

[Grido]

Whilst i think the removal of RPC's is a big enough change to start the next Alpha step, i think there are too many unfinished things currently...i don't know what you're working on currently, but i would think, that rather than trying to implement new things (and i know you love this ) that the unfinished, or broken things get fixed first. And with it being a big step, i would say finishing off the old things increases the symbolism of the stage, and shows how far the game has progressed.

With the tokens, i believe Shadowseeker sent something to you, which he believes would balence them out, at least for now, so possibly implementing that? Unless you have another idea which would work.

Wish Shop, i have no idea what else you're wanting to put in there, but there's the quest rating thing? That could help with the new WP distribution thing as well possibly?

You made a list of things you'd stopped doing in the other thread, maybe you could work on those? finish them off? I figure it'd help with closure on the previous stage(s), and make it more appropriate moving onto the new stage.

Again, absolutely no clue about how long it'd take to do all that stuff , but if it co-incided with the King accounts starting to be used (which i suppose is entirely up to you when it happens), then that would be a good point to start Alpha 10 i think.

[Fenrir Greycloth]

As I am sure you expected Mur, you will recieve nothing but "finish what you started"s. This is a very good piece of advice. We all anxiously wait what you have planned with the scholars and black letters and the changes to the battle system(I don't look forward to the battle system myself but others do lol).


Hopefully we con complete these before Alpha Ten.

[Jester]

You consider removing the RPCs is big enough to go to v10? Wouldn't removing a failed feature be going back to the beginning and having to try again? With the way MD is right now I'd say move on to v08, or v07.

Torches was implemented, and that failed. Not very many people even try, and those who do can't find people to attack and just sit at GoE or SG.

Items are boring and have no purpose except to collect and trade.

Achievements have no purpose and can be finished by anyone playing the game normally or with a little help from another, except the LHO achievement, which just makes it so most people can't finish them all. With RPCs gone I don't even know how you're supposed to get the spell doc one.

The lands of the East have nothing in them except a place to get achievements and an actual Pub.

Combat was utterly ruined by the token system, which I assume was meant to bring in money but will probably end up chasing away all the new players who would spend money if they found the game to be worth playing. Since most of the MD shop items are based on combat, ruining the system that people spend money on seems... strange.

I won't bother going through the list Mur posted that has all the other unfinished projects, I think it speaks for itself.

This is progress in MD? Am I the only one that likes things to be finished before moving on?

Edited October 18, 2009 by Jester

[AqlBeast]

At this moment, I consider going to Alpha 10 hasty. The battle system (in my opinion) is seems to be turning back to previous Alpha stage.

[cryxus]

Aye, I would say it'd feel a sufficient change if you implemented citizenship and factions (yeah, yeah, i know i'm shameless) because i think those two features alone have the power to ~drasticly~ change the feel of MD as we know into something new, and better still.

[Udgard]

Pip has many good points there.

As far as automating MD with still involving human touch, I think finishing the clickable objects coding will be a big step. The keys feature on the clickable, as well as some other unfinished feature mentioned there will go a LONGGGG way towards integrated quests that can stay for a long time in MD, and personalizable by players who make them.

[Nex]

i'd say if alpha 10 should start depends on the scale of changes the stages should stand for. should each stage represent the [i]introduction[/i] of certain projects and ideas or more an overall progress to general vision of MD?

if you see the versions as eras or chapters of MD history, i'd say the [i]actual impact[/i] of changes, both mechanic-wise and on a 'political-'/ RP-level, would make a good decisive factor if a new chapter is reached.

since you are working on many projects behind the scenes, i'd agree with jester that finishing the important ones that have been actually introduced and implemented in alpha 9 before starting the next chapter would have a more complete feel to it.

[Lifeline]

i think its very important to finish all or most of the unfinished features. otherwise it will just become a habit to always start something which is a great idea but then not finish it because another great idea comes to mind. players will be waiting for the change or fix or whatever it is and just keep getting disappointed that it never happens.
for example token and the WPShop would be in my opinion very important to fix or bring closer to completion. and having illusions ready would be awesome as well.
i would think its best to finish the king stuff and citizenship and whatever else falls into that section. then only focus on unfinished stuff and finish it (token, WPShop, illusions, spells, spelldocs, ect). then announce alpha10 and start bringing all the new ideas into the game

[Death Bell]

yeah i agree with lifeline.. finish the king stuff first... then the spell document and illusions and stuff. i am guessing tokens is gonna take some time, so finish off all the other small bits so that you can have a clear image on what ends to be done. Otherwise when you look at all the things that needs to be finished you will have headache and won't even feel like it at all.

[Pipstickz]

[quote name='Udgard' date='18 October 2009 - 02:50 AM' timestamp='1255855852' post='45041']
Pip has many good points there.

As far as automating MD with still involving human touch, I think finishing the clickable objects coding will be a big step. The keys feature on the clickable, as well as some other unfinished feature mentioned there will go a LONGGGG way towards integrated quests that can stay for a long time in MD, and personalizable by players who make them.
[/quote]

I didn't post until now... :/

[cryxus]

wow, that is a good point Pip... he must be able to tell the future

[Udgard]

Yes, and as you can see, he gave a very good point there, just like what I predicted =)
Ph34r my divination skills!

/ot

[Chewett]

[quote name='Fenrir Greycloth' date='18 October 2009 - 03:21 AM' timestamp='1255832499' post='45014']
As I am sure you expected Mur, you will recieve nothing but "finish what you started"s. This is a very good piece of advice. We all anxiously wait what you have planned with the scholars and black letters and the changes to the battle system(I don't look forward to the battle system myself but others do lol). Hopefully we con complete these before Alpha Ten.
[/quote]

Come one fenrir, Sucking up wont do you any good. You know he only casually mentioned two of these features and you have no idea about them. And really, A battle system change would be a whole stage likely as it would be so big


[quote name='Jester' date='18 October 2009 - 05:06 AM' timestamp='1255838763' post='45024']
You consider removing the RPCs is big enough to go to v10? Wouldn't removing a failed feature be going back to the beginning and having to try again? With the way MD is right now I'd say move on to v08, or v07.Torches was implemented, and that failed. Not very many people even try, and those who do can't find people to attack and just sit at GoE or SG.Items are boring and have no purpose except to collect and trade.Achievements have no purpose and can be finished by anyone playing the game normally or with a little help from another, except the LHO achievement, which just makes it so most people can't finish them all. With RPCs gone I don't even know how you're supposed to get the spell doc one.The lands of the East have nothing in them except a place to get achievements and an actual Pub.Combat was utterly ruined by the token system, which I assume was meant to bring in money but will probably end up chasing away all the new players who would spend money if they found the game to be worth playing. Since most of the MD shop items are based on combat, ruining the system that people spend money on seems... strange.I won't bother going through the list Mur posted that has all the other unfinished projects, I think it speaks for itself.This is progress in MD? Am I the only one that likes things to be finished before moving on?
[/quote]

I agree with Jester on this, On all of his points. You removed quite a lot this stage, and it would be interesting to move back to v8 B or something to show that some things and ideas failed.

Ofc we all know you prefer new projects, But the token system utterly broke the Fighting System, The Whole Rp system is now based on the Wp shop and the wishpoints which i see needs some fixing.

Everything changes, it would just be intresting to go back to a "second epoch" and try it again, A bit like an undo button on the computer.

[Fenrir Greycloth]

I'm not sucking up ffs.

I don't know anything about them, and because of that I am interested. Now stop being such an [...] Chewett and get over your demotion.

Edited October 19, 2009 by dst
Removed foul language

[cryxus]

I'd bet a silver Fenrir's gonna get his ass metaphoricly stomped...

[phantasm]

I think story lines in the Story Mode need alot of work. I don't know how much of an issue it is in alpha 9, but I personally and several others are "under construction" in Chapter 2 still. I think it would be nice for everyone to at least be able to get to chapter 3 before moving onto another version.

[Muratus del Mur]

Ok, vote is clearly no.
jumping to A10 will not happen yet.

jumping BACK to aA8 will also not happen, because rpc was not the one thing to advance game from A8 to A9 and also a lot of the RPC things are still used and will be used but in a different setup. For example wishpoint rewarding, was once for rpc only but now its for anyone (or could be if you have wp codes)

Fell free to tell when you think its time for a name change, i'll be working on those unfinished things.

p.s. YES i will also work on new stuff, regardless how insane that is, its the one thing that keeps me going.

[Grido]

As far as i'm aware the status on Chapter 3 is that the story is all done, but images are needed. Also, what with the issues there were surrounding that ""[Ancient Lore NOT TO BE REFERED in Realm or any research. It is just a story NOT a myth, NOT history of Magic Duel. ]"", not sure what Murs feelings on Story Mode is anymore

[Mya Celestia]

I'm with Phantasm. I'd really like to get the "under construction" off my scroll. Granted not all the chapters should lead to access to Necrovion, but maybe getting the permentant ability to cast a specific spell or the ability to access Golemus would be nice.

Just suggestions

[Guybrush Threepwood]

As Jester said, removing RPCs is a step backward. You took something away and haven't fully replaced it yet. I would have argued that you should not have removed the RPCs until you had the replacement system ready to put into place anyway, certainly we shouldn't call it progress until it's done. So, I would say finishing whatever system you plan to replace the RPCs with is a definate necessary, though, since the main thing I see here missing is the spell doc reward which is apparently worthless anyway, (What does having those things do?) perhaps that is finished. ***For the next version: Replace the old system you removed with a new one, unless you're already done doing that.

So what was done to consider this change? Well, I like the Wish Shop, a lot. Seems to be the only thing that we can currently call success/progress. Certainly completing the only successful change seems like a good idea, though it seems pretty well in place to me.

The lands of the East: Adding a new land seems huge to me, like this would be quite a bit toward a new version. Except, as Jester said, it doesn't do anything... Since there's no lore, we know nothing about the land, can't know anything about the land. It's just a bunch of buildings that were naturally formed? Anywho, the only mechanics based thing you added there was the abiilty to get some achievements, as mentioned, and some new scenes. Perhaps the scenes would be worth hanging out in if they had any history or anything of the sort, but as it is there are few enough people in the realm that adding new places to be can only spread us out further... Perhaps the Caretakers will begin changing this though... ***For the next version I suppose is that SOMETHING needs to be done over there, or we may as well take out the whole land, it's just hurting things the way it is. I know you said you have plans, I look forward to seeing them, but until they've been done...

Fighting: A new battle system could be lovely, don't really know what you have in mind, but the new system could fix things, a lot. It could of course make an even larger mess of things. The current system of course just requires a fair bit of money to be competitive. As Jester said, that's not really enticing to newer players. Their reasoning becomes, why stick around here and dish out money when I could go to the store and buy a game with a better combat system, with lore, sound, and graphics. (Not that MD needs these things, but they are far more shiny and enticing.)****For the next version: Fix the old one or make a new one that works.

[cryxus]

Guybrush, some history of the land can be inferred from other lands... like cubes, spheres, and other phenomena in MD, form follows function... I mean if you think of the lands as elements I would think of GG and Necro as water, LR as Earth, MB as wind (mostly because of the capitol and angiens), and that leads me to believe that the East lands would be fire, on account of it being a more civilized and sociable feeling place (i come to this conclusion because man only truly became a society after the discovery and harnessing of fire) so not all Lore has to be in the form of stories... though perhaps I've said too much *looks for a censor button for his mind*... Maybe observations and being able to place things is the kind of lore that Mur was truly looking for, and not the actually story, he wished us to use our minds to see something bigger. But then again I could always be wrong, and likely am oh well, hope you could gain something from my ramblings.



~Cryxus


P.S. sorry for adding nothing regarding the non-movement of the Epoch, I just wanted to perhaps present what I think may be part of the reason for the push for non-lore, because people got side-tracked by the story of the lands and missed the meaning in other details.

Edited October 19, 2009 by cryxus

[Muratus del Mur]

I assure you all lands have their roots well placed within the entire "map". I am so so sick of this lore crap, everyby seeking for "lore" just to feel safe that they "now" about that land or place. Lets think about it. What lore is sufficient? You want to know how it started? Fine .. then what was before that? and before that and before that? Do you want a lore to go to the stoneage of MD? Sorru, md started adhoc when the Angien opened the big box, no stone age.

In the beginning it was a point to put lore, but i wanted in that lore only certain key elements, elements important to the entire concept. These elements worked perfect with the graphic clues, but some of you so obsessed with lore and stories ruined all by digging deep, finding Ady and making him tell more stories than he should. The ancient lore turned into a nice story that was extrapolated from the original. Of course it was nice, made sense, etc etc. Then you started to use made up stories to support your weaknesses in the present.

The tribunal will have ancient lore when i will grow hair in my palm, or when the pigs will fly ... well in MD that might happen sooner or later actualy.

Not being able to rely on the story clues because of Adi's big mouth and my incapability to put chapter 3 up and get chapter 4 done, made me decide that i should leave only the visual clues. Both story and visual tell same story, just that the visual can not talk more than they should.

You go in a town you never were before... do you realy feel the urge of a historian to digg its past and find out everything you can about it? I don't think so. Ok some might like that particular aspect of a place, but most dont. You seeking history in MD is because its made so to wake up your curiosity, but that curiosity should not be focused to ancient inexistent lore.

I could tlak a lot about this, but its not the topic. I noted your points about the A10, basicaly its somehting like "oh no stop it, just fix things first" .. i got it. You are proably true.

RPCdemotion was a step forward in my view. wp rewarding was kept, rpc spells moved to wish shop, abilities will be made public in an organized form..so where is the step back in this? Its a big concept change, and its true i lost time hoping it will work., but i also learned about what works and what doesnt in md,... thats a step forward, in an other direction.

I have nothing against making A9 the longest stage in MD history. ..

[Phantom Orchid]

Good point! Who but the Angien who opened the box would know what came before...?

I feel compelled to comment by saying that we are the stories we tell ourselves. We are defined by our own notions of who we are. People define themselves by their jobs, lifestyles, families, roles, relationships, etc. They seek stories (lore) to feel safe because they wish to identify with their surroundings. Stories help to explain their surroundings - myths/religions spring forth and grow because people desire to explain and/or connect with various phenomena experienced in their world.

Each member of any given culture/religion shares in a common story - it is part of their identity. Our sense of identity is necessary for our survival, both culturally and spiritually. Most cultures/religions/myths of the world have a 'creation' story - every one sounding just about as 'crazy' as the next (generally speaking, if it is not one's own). For example, the myth of Western science proves that the world is 6 billion (or whatever) years old - though certain religions proclaim it as a few thousand years old. There are many of these religious believers, and for them, their truth stands firm. But the question of 'what is reality?' is, well, another discussion.

Though it is impossible to tease out which is influenced more - our stories by us, or us by our stories - both influences shape ourselves and the world around us.

Stories can easily, though, turn into labels - and the more we label ourselves, the more limited we are (the more we label others, the more prejudices and stereotypes arise) - it's like being stuck in a box that gets smaller and smaller.

A question arises: Even if stories are based fictitiously - do they have no meaning? Fiction cannot change true events of the past but it can shape our perceptions about them. For MD, I know not what the implications of this are... I do know, however, that stories (based in truth or fiction) carry power when enough people believe in them. A brash example might be to think of crusades, conquistadors, tyrants, etc. Propaganda (story) is often their most effective weapon.

====================================================

There is an Oak, growing in MD Archive land.
It is told a story each day,
For Oaks are the keepers of knowledge.
It is blessed, for it I pray
It holds the secrets of our homage

Edited October 20, 2009 by Phantom Orchid