Death Ray / Noxids Offensive Comments

[asryn]

[quote name='CrazyMike' date='23 November 2009 - 12:29 AM' timestamp='1258964967' post='48167']
LOL.....

Can we safely say the issue is dead or should we discuss options available?
[/quote]

I realize this post was originally about that one comment, but I dealt with a very similar issue not long ago and I continue to occasionally stumble across offensive comments when reading other people's PLs. Right now the only recourse is to speak out publicly, track down the offender in game, and convince them to make the change. If you can't find that person, or they aren't willing to cooperate, you are out of luck. I think it would be a good idea to have some admin type person who is able to edit PLs who can be contacted in these situations, if the above method doesn't work or if someone is uncomfortable having that sort of confrontation.

[Asterdai]

Fenrir, you really dont get it do you.

i dont know the history very well, but i know this much.
The N word, was a derogatory word then. And to use it nowadays is Disrespectful. Whether it is ok to use it in your small circle of friends or not.It is not accepted and shows that you do not care for the bad things that happened in the past.
like you are doing by not actually saying it, show some respect and never use that word. its not about anyone else. its about you and YOUR respect.

It is similer to the SEX RP posts that are going around at the moment. You may find it ok to say...

*lifts up his loincloth and rubs his "c..." against fenrir* in the player log.

but anyone else seeing something so...explicit.. might not be so impressed.

Edited November 23, 2009 by Asterdai

[Guest]

[quote]We are not in the 1960s anymore. These words do not have the same effect anymore.Their meanings have changed dramatically, if you don't agree with me on anything. You have to agree with me about this.[/quote]

Learn to listen to other people, Fenrir, then you might find yourself actually learning something about the world around you.

Yes, for some people the word fag and other derogatory terms have become meaningless.. but for a lot of others they have not. The world is a much larger place than your own back yard.



@asryn . Agreed.. we need a workable way of of removing offensive or personally insulting PL entries.

[asryn]

[quote name='Fenrir Greycloth' date='23 November 2009 - 11:34 AM' timestamp='1259004873' post='48255']

Zleiph I never said that saying it was right. I was merely pointing out that it is up to the person being called a name to be offended. If they are black and called a N!!!!!', it only affects them if they are sensitive about being black. If I am called a cracker, I laugh it off. It's a word. They make themselves look stupid when The person doesn't react negatively. Names are just that, names.

We are not in the 1960s anymore. These words do not have the same effect anymore.Their meanings have changed dramatically, if you don't agree with me on anything. You have to agree with me about this.
[/quote]

*takes a deep breath* Fenrir, I agree that words do change with time, but that is not the same thing as saying that their history is irrelevant. The ability of a word to harm isn't something that disappears overnight, or even over decades. What you appear to be saying here is that if someone is offended by a word or phrase, it is essentially their own fault for being too sensitive, since in your mind the words themselves are now harmless.

I am willing to give people the benefit of the doubt, and assume that their intentions in choosing those words are benign unless they give me a reason to think otherwise. But it is not up to you to dictate how people should react to hearing them, and what they should and shouldn't find hurtful. Words can be hurtful for any number of reasons, even unintentionally. They can create mental links to unpleasant memories, they can demonstrate subconscious biases, they can hide in joke form sentiments that truly are harmful. Just because you aren't trying to offend doesn't mean your words can't be offensive. The effects of words are defined by the one listening, not the one speaking.

The language people use in private conversations doesn't particularly concern me. But MD chat and player logs are public spaces, viewable by anyone. The types of words we are discussing are upsetting to many people, myself included, and the fact that someone knows someone who isn't bothered by them doesn't make that any less true. Surely we can agree to err on the side of civility and avoid speaking in ways that are likely to hurt people? There are enough other words in the English language, even insulting ones when needed, that I really don't think that is an unreasonable request.

Your statement above essentially said one of two things: either you are telling people how they should feel, or you are telling them that their feelings are irrelevant. I hope that isn't what you intended to say, but that is how it sounded to me.

Edited November 23, 2009 by asryn

[Jester]

Who cares if its offensive? The simple answer is for Mur to stop messing with principles for 5 minutes and use his amazing programming powers to add a feature where you can delete your own PL entries, or at the least have a character who can delete them, and you just have to ask them too.

[Pipstickz]

Jester does have a good point...you can delete forum profile comments, why not PL entries? If people want to say something bad about you and you won't let them do it in your PL, they can post it in their papers, or talk about it in chat...

[CrazyMike]

Here, here.....

I agree with Jester.

Lets give players the ability to delete posts in their PL that they do not like.

Btw, my apologies to those that were offended by my posts earlier. Wasnt saying that the posts are right, but am saying that what one finds offensive might be normal for others. And I would be offended if MD starts a moral police to start telling everyone what is offensive and what is not.

Give the option to delete by the players and that should solve the problem.

*wink*

[Fenrir Greycloth]

Umm, the words have meaning to those who give them those meanings. Why care if the word ni!!!! was used for slaves. They arnt slaves any more, nor are there any slaves anymore. Forget what the word meant and focus on what the word now means.

[pamplemousse]

Well, Fenrir, you are an idiot. And I know that you won't take offense because you aren't sensitive about being one! It's not the 1960's you know!

[Phantom Orchid]

[quote name='Fenrir Greycloth' date='23 November 2009 - 07:50 PM' timestamp='1259034611' post='48297']
Umm, the words have meaning to those who give them those meanings. Why care if the word ni!!!! was used for slaves. They arnt slaves any more, nor are there any slaves anymore. Forget what the word meant and focus on what the word now means.
[/quote]


Yes, you are an idiot...

In the country where I live, land of the free,

"Over 700,000 women are taken prisoner each year in the worldwide network of human trafficking. Approximately 50,000 of these women end up in the United States..."

[url="http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/54318/americas_modern_day_slave_trade_human.html?cat=37"]America's Modern Day Slave Trade[/url]

[asryn]

Ok Fenrir, apparently that is what you intended to say. So I will stop wasting my breath on that particular line of reasoning.

I see two problems with Mike's proposal. One is that PLs are used for other game functions - notes from quest creators, sparring ground warnings, etc. We don't want players to be able to edit or remove those on a whim. Nor do we want people to be able to otherwise meddle with what is written, otherwise there is no point to the logs at all.

The other is the point that I made earlier. When Pample calls Fenrir an idiot, she is insulting only him. Comments like the one in Phantom Orchid's log insult an entire group of people, as well as anyone who cares about them. Had I come across that comment in someone else's log I would have been offended by it, even if the log owner wasn't. Honestly it is the fact that these types of comments get scattered around so lightly that I find most upsetting, much more so than if they were just being directed at me personally. So I really think there needs to be some way to address offensive comments even if they are not in your own log.

As far as I am concerned people can use whatever language they like in private conversations, PMs, etc. But player logs and papers are public, and I think the language used should reflect that. If people want to call each names, or make negative comments, that's fine. I'm not saying it has to be all sweetness and light, just that we are intelligent and eloquent enough to find ways of insulting individuals without offending whole communities of innocent bystanders at the same time.

Anyway, I like the idea of giving someone editing power, but I would prefer to see some type of moderator. It works in the forum, why not in game? It would be a much smaller job - just someone whose name could be posted as the person to contact if you see something inappropriate, who could step in and make changes if needed. Can't imagine it would be needed often, but I do think it would be worthwhile.

Edited November 24, 2009 by asryn

[pamplemousse]

I nominate Grido. He is fair, trustworthy and an insomniac.

[CrazyMike]

Rather then finding someone new to do that task, why not expand the forum moderators to include PLs.

I trust the moderators to know whats right and wrong for the forum, and I would extend that trust that they would know whats offensive and whats not in PLs.

Btw, I asked some of my friends who are practising alternative lifestyle about the post by DR and they are indifferent. They are curious though why is so many people finding it offensive, when they themselves find that it is not. They find that it is more offensive that the public at large have to keep jumping to their defence and trying to be politically correct as it is painting them to be a community who is narrow minded and sensitive. Their advice, if you are not practicing an alternative lifestyle, stop trying to defend their sensitivities.

*wink*

[death ray]

If it's such a big problem maybe you all should have a talk with me and hear my side

[dst]

DR, right now, the issue is not about you anymore. It's about how to prevent players to post unwanted things in the PL. And it is also about how Fenrir, as always, goes in the opposite direction then the majority.

[death ray]

with all honesty, i didn't see it to be so offencive and negitive. to me it's just a word,like F**k S**t ect. just words nothing more,i should have thought about one fact tho and thats that MD is a community from all over the world and that we all do see such things diffrently.this can and will work out in the end it all ways does, it's MD! i'm asking every one as a whole to find it in them to forgive my poor actions...



(if haven't read my papers i'm not realy meant to be a nice,loving,and caring ect. type of charactor)
THE END...

[Totenkopf]

[quote name='CrazyMike' date='24 November 2009 - 09:16 AM' timestamp='1259046976' post='48310']
Rather then finding someone new to do that task, why not expand the forum moderators to include PLs.

I trust the moderators to know whats right and wrong for the forum, and I would extend that trust that they would know whats offensive and whats not in PLs.

Btw, I asked some of my friends who are practising alternative lifestyle about the post by DR and they are indifferent. They are curious though why is so many people finding it offensive, when they themselves find that it is not. They find that it is more offensive that the public at large have to keep jumping to their defence and trying to be politically correct as it is painting them to be a community who is narrow minded and sensitive. Their advice, if you are not practicing an alternative lifestyle, stop trying to defend their sensitivities.

*wink*
[/quote]

i agree with that - homosexuals and other minorities, whether sexual, racial or otherwise would probably be better off and viewed better if the majorities stopped being such fags about what to call them
[i]exempli gratia[/i] - in romania gypsies are considered by most people an annoyance, though even moreso since it became politically incorrect to call them "gypsies" (which carries a slight pejorative inflection, however has been used almost unanimously so far, including in all major works of literature) instead of the PC "rroma" (which is too close to "romanian" to be liked), and a surefire way of pissing off someone is to "correct" them on this (i.e. acting like a PC fag about it ) - and most gypsies actually are against that and prefer people calling them "gypsies" and refer to themselves as "gypsies" rather than "rroma" - only 1-2 gypsy politicians call themselves "rroma", everyone else is more like "yeah i'm a gypsy and proud of it" and i've even seen cases when _they_ get upset about someone calling them "rroma", which would only imply they should be sensitive about it and brings their ethnicity more to the spotlight.

PS - please don't infer from the above that i have anything against gypsies - i may or may not have (i hate all minorities equally and majorities probably even moreso ), but that doesn't have anything to do with the above and is completely unrelated to the discussion.

Edited November 24, 2009 by Totenkopf

[(Zl-eye-f)-nea]

You know what? Some of your reactions to this situation are really making me consider if I've just entered the twilight zone. Mike, your friends really have no concept of their own rights and freedoms if that was their reaction, nor the value of the use of their own language. I wonder if you are aware of how freedom and equality is gained by minorities? I'll tell you a secret...it isn't because people "left them to it". I gotta tell you, I've asked my gay mates too and frankly you should have heard what they said because I can't repeat it on this forum without getting banned. If my friends were on here they would have an absolute field day wipping the floor with you people - and when I say wipping the floor with you I mean you would have so many facts, figures, websites and historical referrences coming out of your ears that you'd be willing to burn them off just to get rid of it all.

Sort out the PL issue like DST says and stop trying to justify or belittle the original action. I'll set up a new thread where we can vote on the suggested options, which will hopefully resolve this farce of a conversation. And before anyone else makes any smart remarks about my temperament, yes, i'm at the end of my fuse on this one, so tread carefully or tread on a landmine.

Z

[CrazyMike]

Z.....

I totally agree with you.

Again, I am not trying to justify the actions done, nor am I saying one should not take offence.

(Z, please do not take offence if I am not as offended as you are)

The point that I have always been trying to make is that different people have different levels of sensitivities.

If I say F*** You as a joke, but you got hurt by me, though it is not my intention to hurt, it is only appropriate for me to apologise.

Again, MD is an international community with different cultures and understanding and definitions of words being used.

All I am saying is that, react to offending words, fine, its ones right to do so, but I am asking for restrain as the offender who utters that word might have a different understanding of it.

Z made a good point when he said that his friends who practices alternative lifestyle will froth at the mouth at the use of that word, but those that practices alternative lifestyle from my country doesnt. See.... different cultures, different sensitivities. The history and stats and facts are only relevant to those from the same culture.

I am not asking that offensive words be allowed.

Just asking that when we are faced with an offensive word, deal with it diplomatically and try not to get too emotional about it.

I have insulted people by calling them a bastard, and they just laugh it off, but when I call them stupid, they get real offended. We will never know people's reaction to certain terms. Its obvious Z is passionate about the term used, but should I apologise if I am not as passionate.

MD is not about me or any one individual. Its a growing community that is slowly developing its own personality. Even now we have different alliances that has their own personality, it would be normal that when personalities get stronger, they will try to dictate others to follow suit. Hence, we get wars, takeovers and squabbles.

Let's agree to disagree.

I agree that word is very offensive to some and you agree that the word is not offensive to some.

*wink*

Btw, thank you, Z for making that new thread.

For those who doesnt know about it, please go here

http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/5778-what-to-do-about-offensive-public-log-entries/

[Fenrir Greycloth]

Fight the power!

No seriously, words are words. If everyone stopes being offended by noises we make, life would be better. If someone calls you a piece of crap, laugh. Because a piece of crap that big must surely have torn someone anal sphincter to shreds.

Most "insults" are funny if you take them literally, others just don't make sense. Really, what you are reacting to is the intent. Not the words. So, deal with the intent, not the words! Not much of a difference, but there is one.

[asryn]

[quote name='CrazyMike' date='24 November 2009 - 08:02 PM' timestamp='1259121720' post='48418']

The point that I have always been trying to make is that different people have different levels of sensitivities.

[/quote]

I actually don't disagree with that, Mike. There are a lot of things which affect how we interpret language - judgment, culture, experience, preference. That's why I think warnings are appropriate before punishment. All I am saying is, can we as a community please err on the side of avoiding offense, and set the bar for public discussions at a level where everyone can feel comfortable?

Edited November 25, 2009 by asryn

[Chewett]

This issue has been dragged out too long. It is closed

If you wish to have a non insulting, Friendly argument about how we can solve this problem then please go ahead

But if there is another topic like this where everyone is being insulted there will be punishment, Not just on the forum...

Edited November 25, 2009 by Chewett