What To Do About Offensive Public Log Entries

[(Zl-eye-f)-nea]

This issue has come up a number of times but has never been dealt with. What do we do when we have an offensive public log entry? Please vote in the above poll and/or leave comments and extra suggestions.

Z

[ladytwin]

i find it a good iea that there are persons in the game who can change it when needed and grido is a kind off police *giggles* in md so why not him.

[Kafuuka]

Removing the comments yourself gives too much freedom. eg when the dojo existed people got marked with 'dojo violator' in their log and I don't think they should have had the ability to remove that comment themselves.

Submitting it on the forum will bring more sad topics and doesn't really solve it.

We trust the mods with the forum, so why not with the PL? Of all people, they should know the difference between a negative comment and an offensive comment. It might be a tiny bit more efficient if there was a central 'please remove comment X by player Y from my PL' form; they have no way to see all the new entries like the forum RSS.

[Grido]

Forum mods being PL mods as well....the current forum mods i have faith in (yes, me in third person lol), but in the future there may be forum mods, who are good at forum modding, but might not be suitable for this.

I have no objection to this one, so long as the community agree on who it is, that, or Mur chooses the person who he thinks fits the position best. I would be quite happy for it to be me, but equally happy if another person was chosen to do it.

The way i know the game and how it works(and i think i know it fairly well now), I find it extremely unlikely that players will ever get the ability to edit [u]their own[/u] PL's. PL's are there for both good and bad comments about the player, and being able to delete comments on yourself, well, most people would just delete all the negative ones.

Depends on the extent of the offensiveness, but for the more serious cases, i think there probably needs to be someone other than Mur to deal with it.

This tends to lead to huge rant threads, as we've had recently.



LE: As a note, it might be a good thing to put a time/date stamp on PL entries, so that it's known how recently/long ago it was written.

Edited November 24, 2009 by Grido

[Malaikat Maut]

I voted to allow forum mods to edit the PLs also. However, I did want to express that I don't believe the last option to be viable as it doesn't make provisions for players who are unwilling or unable (because they no longer play) to edit the PL.

[Chewett]

[quote name='Grido' date='24 November 2009 - 03:24 PM' timestamp='1259076281' post='48369']
the current forum mods i have faith in (yes, me in third person lol), but in the future there may be forum mods, who are good at forum modding, but might not be suitable for this.
[/quote]

Good at forum modding is objective I might dissagree that the lot of you are useless mods but would be good PL Moderators

It works both ways.

[Death Bell]

i voted on forum mods since there will be more than one person for it so we don't have to depend on one guy to see if he is online or not. if its just one guy taking care of this then what he decides is offensive and is not is the final decision, but if the forum mods are in charge then we can ask all forum mods to see if they think its offensive and get a better decision.

[pamplemousse]

I voted for there to be one person, I think Grido, who would be in charge of PL's. Too many people make things complicated and this isn't that complicated of an issue.

Centralized communication is where its at.

[Grido]

@Death Bell, so if you get a negative responce you can ignore their decision and tryanother person until you get one you like?

right....


and lol Chewy, true

Edited November 24, 2009 by Grido

[The Guy Casey]

Personally, the option to remove offensive logs should fall to the receiver of said logs. I'd insert an [x] somewhere in the vicinity of the logs, so that players are allowed the freedom to delete those that they find bothersome. If you'd like to deter over abuse of log deletion, you could add penalties for removing them just as there are ones for removing friends.

[Grido]

I made a suggestion in another thread somewhere about having a tick box on players PL's, the owner of the PL would mark the box, then the errr...'moderator' of the PL's would only be able to remove those ones.

I dont think a 5ap (like removing friends from list) drop would stop removing all the negative comments on yourself.


LE: Is there no other suggestions for the person to do it if ""Allow there to be a go to person with the editing ability for situations where you want something removed"" gets the most votes?

Edited November 24, 2009 by Grido

[asryn]

I voted to choose a specific PL moderator, but I think using the forum mods could work fine as well.

[Jester]

Personally I think being able to delete a comment that offends you yourself is better than not having the option to have it deleted at all. Which is more important, warning people who have no power to do anything that a person is a dojo offender, or removing a comment that offends someone and ruins their enjoyment of the game?

As for the PL entry deletion mods, forum mods seem to already have too much to do, so I think it'd be best for it to be voluntary, like LHOs. And then have those people read peoples PLs while waiting to attack or chatting or something. I do that already. There be a list of types of comments to remove. Comments that waste space, like I posted first in this PL but have nothing to say! Hurray for brain damage! or the comments that are blank and take up lots of room, and then any comments with offensive words in them (to be determined later).

I like the second option, and that's just my idea. Also, anyone who is caught PMing the people in charge to remove the PL entry more than once would be banned or something, and the only time you can PM someone about a comment is if its really offensive, not just annoying. Those comments would be deleted by the people just randomly surfing PLs.

[pamplemousse]

I also nominate Innocence to help with PL's. Inno is fair and easy to talk to and is around a lot.

[Indyra]

i agree with a PL moderator...but only for the PL's that have real "offensive" language ..not for any comment that doesn't suit you as a player....we should all be able to deal with a little criticism

[Laphers]

So, a couple of thoughts:

Allow the player to "hide" an offensive/inappropriate log entry. They must type a reason for hiding it when hiding it. On hiding, a PL moderator will be notified of a hidden log entry and can review it and the reason for hiding it. If the PL mod chooses to unhide it, the owner can not rehide it until it has been changed by the original poster. If the comment is deleted, the original poster is not able to post to the owner's log (perhaps for a period of time or permanently). The PL mod also gets the ability to affect the reputation (Not sure how Mur has this implemented) of the owner/hider and the poster to hopefully limit the amount of frivolous hiding of log entries and offensive postings.

There should be at least 2 PL mods and a PL mod is not able to act on their own log or their own entries.

Perhaps there should be a reward to the PL mods. Something small but significant like 1 loyalty for every log entry that they deal with.

I will not say who I think should be a PL mod as I don't think I know the people well enough to say yea or nay.

[Asterdai]

hmm i voted for a particluar person,
Grido, pample, inno, Z, these are all sensible people, who are on a lot, it doesnt matter to me who does it.

i have my 2 bad entries, Creep and Stalker. and i dont feel it has anything to do with my character and is something personal, for someone who really doesnt like me and wants to flame me in public. Now its fine to have them on there, im not too bothered becuase others know im not like that. But um.. if i WAS a stalker.... that would be a different matter. I know one person, who has LOTS of negative remarks against her name...

I suppose it has to be a conversation between the PLM (player log moderator, and the parties involved)

[Grido]

thought i'd revive this....looks like the ""Allow there to be a go to person with the editing ability for situations where you want something removed"" won, or is winning anyway

[Daemon Torvez]

I voted for allowing there to be a “go too person”. It makes the most sense and it seems there are at least a couple people that Mur could rely on to handle this job responsibly. If Grido wants to do it I’d accept his nomination and decisions. This task would actually be very important. I have witnessed numerous acts of grieving and flat out discrimination that did not fit within the context of role playing in MD. Ethically and in some ways legally a game designer is responsible for attempting to prevent discrimination and it is a good thing that Mur is acting on this. In past events that I witnessed it was very difficult for the community as a whole to curb players from do this. I saw a couple players be targeted and end up leaving the game or maybe they started over but regardless they should not have had to endure that.

MD needs a PL constable. On a side note it would be best if that person had access to a direct dump of all logs at the same time for ease of viewing but that is mechanics. I feel that players should not be able to edit their own PL. This would destroy the role playing element that the PLs were designed to add. Allowing more than one person to be the PL constable could create division or set up unwanted situations already mentioned. The current PL system is not fine and needs an established go-to person for PL complaints and review. These matters should not be brought up in public either. This may be an online game but people still take things personally have feelings and a right to privacy. If they are being discriminated or harassed in their PL the matter should be handled as privately and quickly as possible if for nothing more but the respect of the victim.

Rules would need to be established of course. Players who file repeated false reports would need to be punished as well as the players actually committing the crime. There would need to be an established definition or set of guidelines made public describing what is considered illegal to be placing in the PLs in MD. Players would need to acknowledge these and agree to not commit any offenses (I think this is already done). What should be considered harassment may be subjective in some cases but that is why it’s important to have one quality person as the constable.

I think using universal values would be best meaning anything that is directed at the individual themselves and not their MD character that results in discrimination based on their gender, ethnicity, religious beliefs, etc. Also as a lesser offence, anything blatantly negative that is directed at the player in some personal manner that does not add to the content or value of the role playing experience of MD should be considered for removal from PLs.

For punishment, if the offense is blatantly discriminative in nature than the offender should be considered for banning and force a transfer of their better creature(s) to the victim as added restitution. For a lesser offense the offender can be jailed or better yet “tied” to the “town square” (forced idle for a bit) so everyone can publicly stone them (get free attacks on them in some fashion with their stats being lowered-just a thought).

Discrimination is very damaging even online where the parties involved are not directly in physical contact. There needs to be a measure for protecting players and punishing those guilty of the crime. I’m glad to see this being discussed and acted on.

[Pipstickz]

2 warnings, 1 day ban, week ban, month ban, etc.?

Will it be like LHO to accommodate all time zones, or will there only be one or two people?

[Observer]

Well, seeing as it's not _that_ urgent, people who'd just idle in a set public place would do mostly. 2 could already cover the entire day.

[Kyphis the Bard]

[quote name='Laphers' date='25 November 2009 - 07:02 PM' timestamp='1259139772' post='48433']
So, a couple of thoughts:

Allow the player to "hide" an offensive/inappropriate log entry. They must type a reason for hiding it when hiding it. On hiding, a PL moderator will be notified of a hidden log entry and can review it and the reason for hiding it. If the PL mod chooses to unhide it, the owner can not rehide it until it has been changed by the original poster. If the comment is deleted, the original poster is not able to post to the owner's log (perhaps for a period of time or permanently). The PL mod also gets the ability to affect the reputation (Not sure how Mur has this implemented) of the owner/hider and the poster to hopefully limit the amount of frivolous hiding of log entries and offensive postings.

There should be at least 2 PL mods and a PL mod is not able to act on their own log or their own entries.

Perhaps there should be a reward to the PL mods. Something small but significant like 1 loyalty for every log entry that they deal with.

I will not say who I think should be a PL mod as I don't think I know the people well enough to say yea or nay.
[/quote]
This seems like a really good solution, if there are multiple PLM's then it could operate the same as the LHO alerts do.

However, as far as not being able to rehide it goes, I think that the person should have the option to appeal to Ailith if (and only if) they have both reason to believe and evidence to support that the PLM is biased toward them. Or Mur,, since he heads the MD Court >.>

I think the reward would be abused though, probably beter to use something like how the LHO's have special markings, giving them status in the community.

[quote name='Daemon Torvez' date='02 December 2009 - 12:22 AM' timestamp='1259677373' post='48812']
For punishment, if the offense is blatantly discriminative in nature than the offender should be considered for banning and force a transfer of their better creature(s) to the victim as added restitution. For a lesser offense the offender can be jailed or better yet “tied” to the “town square” (forced idle for a bit) so everyone can publicly stone them (get free attacks on them in some fashion with their stats being lowered-just a thought).
[/quote]
I like the Public stoning idea, the creature transfer is a bit harsh and could cause bugs.

Actually, I REALLY like the public stoning idea >

[Daemon Torvez]

There should only be 1 constable but you bring up a good point, having a second person in a different time zone as the primary would be good. They could handle the removal of any immediate, blatant discrimination problems. Other than that though, the primary person should handle everything else.