Hoarding Of Creation Items

[Jubaris]

I agree on the item weight, brilliant idea Marv

normally some items weight more some less... staff isnt that heavy, but 30k of marble is

[Grido]

This suggestion has been brought up before, not entirely sure what happened with it...

I like it though, and this is me, with 30kg's of Cement saying this

[Miq]

Actual points of raw material creation (mines, etc) are very good idea.

And remove the item owner list

Miq

[Kafuuka]

[quote name='Grido' date='22 January 2010 - 05:41 PM' timestamp='1264178514' post='53240']
This suggestion has been brought up before, not entirely sure what happened with it...

I like it though, and this is me, with 30kg's of Cement saying this
[/quote]
[post='30224']Indeed it has[/post] and nothing happened.
Although the adding of effects to items seems a bit like the idea of artifacts and mundane items, the basic problems remain. The amount of raw materials is relatively low, making it too easy to acquire a monopoly. And to have a handful of people artificially keep the circle of items in motion is asking too much.

[Muratus del Mur]

If there would be way to create raw materials, wouldn't it cause a huge inflation of items?

The current usable items allow for dynamic item creation, for example you could have an lumber axe and if you are in certain places on the map the axe could spawn a certain number if wood chunks for example. This can be made for example for christals, metals etc. The other items such as tools , could convert a certain number of raw materials in your inventory into a more rare items. This sounds nice I know. There is also a restricted place in MB reserved for a possible mining camp...but...what is the impact of such a feature on the long run...how would you get a manufacturing tool or a gathering tool.

I am afraid this will only make strong players richer and will cause a huge item inflation destroyin the importance of items overall.

still thinking about it...

[Kafuuka]

If you ignore the alt problem for a minute, the unbalance can be tackled:
Allow people to posses only one kind of extraction tool/creation device, from many many tools available. Make the creation tree complex. => People will can only specialize in 1 'skill' and are required to trade.
eg. to get iron bars you'd need to mine iron ore, coal, then take them to a smelter (which has to be a separate person and will request a fee).

It doesn't have to be 1 one tool, but the amount of tools you can possess should be much lower than the amount that exist. Some tools could be more expensive both in purchase or in 'space taken'. eg. My character wants to be a miller, he could then produce various kinds of flours from various plants. If farmers are allowed to grow only one kind of crop, then milling is more versatile and should be a more expensive ability. (which is realistic too, a mill was a very important possession in the old times; also the reason why I have long ago stated to want a mill and planned to request the deed to the Golems' mill and all milling rights once I'd get a dozen WP )

[awiiya]

That's a great idea Marvolo. From what I could see, it would solve a few problems. The only problem it wouldn't solve is these people who are not doing much moving anyways. But besides that, brilliant.

Awi

[Czez]

My char Czez has a lot of inventory items. Many of them were created uniquely in response to RP events she was involved in, or are specific to her role as a navigator.

She also posses a number of 'Raw' items. Almost all of these were gifts from people as she was fortunate to celebrate her 200th AD the day many were introduced to the game. One of them I bought. They are not for sale or trade, and certainly not for profit. That is not hoarding. I've long wanted to comission special items for her role, and use some of the items she has in quests. Currently, she actively employs almost all of the items, [i]including the Raws[/i], in RP.

Why must I feel pressured to sell these to other people? I don't want to. I have plans for these items, and I do actually use them.

[Sparrhawk]

In my opinion Raw material isnt for Roleplay why because its reason for being implemented in the game was for crafting, It annoys alot of people maybe thats why there is "pressure" I would know I have been wanting to craft something for a very long time and have had alot of difficulty trying to get any materials I needed, it took me months just to get my hands on a moonstone one thing I wanted to use in crafting now there are issues with getting other materials due to hoarders. Hopefully something can be worked out and I will be able to craft, I do not get how some people dont understand that their hoarding is hurting those who want to craft. There isnt unlimited Raw materials.I couldnt care less if people hoard normal items its raw materials that IS an issue.

Edited January 22, 2010 by Sparrhawk

[I am Bored]

if we do impliment a way of gaining raw materials, then those who currently have raw materials should be compensated, because the value of them would drop a bunch, and i am speaking having 3 or so raw materials myself, i don't want them to become worthless just because a new feature was implimented, however if the new raw materials were totally seperate from the main invintory, then i might say that it is just fine not to compensate us at first, as long as the raw materials we have now, will be usable for more than the new raw materials, for example if you needed to create an item that requried 10 peices of wood (in terms of new raw materials) it would only take 1 of the current raw materials instead of the 10 of the new version. (this is just an example, because if it became easy to get raw materials, then it would actually be worth more than what it takes there.....) however if you limited it so you could only obtain 1 raw material every 2 weeks (trying to keep them uncommon enough for my example above to be feasable) and you made it so you would have to have lets say 100 active days and be at at least mp4, then we could also help prevent abuse of the raw materials, because if a player has been here for 100 days, then they would know how md works, and would be less prone to hoarding, in the end some raw materials would be more valuable than others, but that's what we want, to have a working economy, and i must say that we shouldn't have items expire, that would just drive people away from md.

[lightsage]

Should people who had angiens before they were freely available at angien's shrine have been compensated as well? Those dropped from the price of a drach to almost nothing overnight.

IMHO That's the way it works, while something is rare (it's not meant to be rare) you either sell it during the time you can ask a lot for it, or risk getting next to nothing for it.

Light

[Kafuuka]

[quote name='I am Bored' date='22 January 2010 - 11:13 PM' timestamp='1264198401' post='53260']
if we do impliment a way of gaining raw materials, then those who currently have raw materials should be compensated, because the value of them would drop a bunch
[/quote]
They were never meant to be valuable, but as soon as they were released, people saw the potential to corner the market and control the supply-demand ratio. From the start those people were asked politely to refrain from doing this and now you want to be compensated? For what? For thinking of the obvious plan everybody thought about but only a few decided their own gain is worth causing trouble to all other players? I wonder what is more sad: your sheer opportunism, that you think people are silly enough to agree with you, or that you not so long ago tried to see if the average MD iq is significantly different from 100 in a vain attempt to feel better about yourself but now seem to hope people are stupid so you can profit from it?

Besides MD is a perpetual beta game, things will change and there'll be no refund. You know that when you sign up.

[Azrael Dark]

The sheer rarity of particular "raw materials" is indeed a problem since no one is completely how to re-acquire the item once they have parted ways again. I do believe setting a standard and constant way of reacquisition of raw materials is the solution to these woes. I've read the previous posts and it seems we all share the same predicament as to how to treat these materials. In general, items are still a rarity and having one of anything is a source of some excitement. I for one believe it is better to have than have not, no matter the value or worth of the item you have in your possession. But like others have expressed a strict economic control must be applied to avoid flooding the market with raw materials while also maintaining the scarcity of said raw materials. To wrap up this long winded post, I just want to post some brainstormed solutions to this item problem. I don't necessarily agree with the points I bring up, but I believe they each bring about a fair balance to raw material acquisition. each bullet point is independent upon the other ideas:

[list][*]For the mining / lumberyard idea, with a specific place meant to gain wood/ore, anyone should be able to do this. The two caveats to this idea should be 1. The process of mining/lumberjacking/etc. should take the entire day, so you will not be able to move or attack (or be attacked?) while working, only live chat until you are done with working to get 1 wood/ore. Having an axe or pick would increase the amount of wood/ore you get per work day (say 5 wood or ore per work day).[/list]
[list][*]Make finding raw materials a luck factor. Just as the luck stat attributes to finding gold coins occasionally (in the form of value points), a (very) small percentage should be devoted to randomly finding a raw material. Also, what material you find is dependent upon which land you are in (example: you are far more likely to find wood in Loreroot, ore in GG, bones in Necro, fabric in MB) Having/crafting axes or picks or needles increases this chance.[/list]
[list][*]Have raw materials age like creatures, with some depreciating in value and some appreciating. Examples include:[/list] wood -> aged wood -> petrified wood -> rotten wood -> mulch,
stone -> hard rock -> cracked rock -> fragile rock -> dust,
coal -> dark coal -> hardened coal -> pressurized coal -> diamond

[list][*]Should there be a limit to the number of items you carry? And should this inventory system be weighted with each item carrying a weight value, or slotted with each item occupying one slot (coins not included in this inventory system)?[*][/list][list][*]To avoid alt abuse, a similar system as the trade advisor should be applied to the transfer of items as well.[/list]


These are just some ideas I wanted to share. I know I haven't really addressed the issue of tools like axes and picks, but without a set way of constructing purchasing these tools, I don't know myself. Like I said before, this is just some brainstorming I've done. I apologize if I have infringed upon someone else's idea and feel free to think these ideas are just dumb.

AZ

P.S - Is this even the right place for this topic?

Edited January 23, 2010 by Azrael Dark

[Udgard]

@czez: I guess the point many people are not really happy with is : if you wanted to commission items using them, then why haven't you done so? Since you're going to use it, but haven't (and you mentioned that you got some of them since the day it was implemented), the item is stuck on you and no one else can use it. Why not use it soon so it can be recirculated?

@bored: I know it's gonna shake the economy and make some people lose money, if implemented, but you do know that it is how MD works. You can always liquidate your investment if you want, it's just like real economy: invest in risky investments, or hold the less risky cash (coins in this case).

For some considerations:
Not all list of raw materials are released yet, and hence the number is indeed too few than the number of players. But let's look at this; there's only 3 types of raw materials that are released right now: wood, gemstones and animal parts. They have a total of 35 different raw materials, each having at least 2 copies, some more than that AFAIK(13 kinds of wood, 13 stones, 9 animal parts). Now imagine how it will be like when we implement the other kinds of raw materials (metal, cloth, herbs&chemical ingredients, etc). This will multiply the amount of available raw materials quickly, without even increasing the number of copies of each type of item. They are not requested to be made yet because there's no one to actually craft them (like the case with metal during Kragel's absence). But maybe, should we just go ahead and create them right now, so there will be more items on the market? I dunno, but maybe if there's more item in the market, it'll redirect some of the 'hoarding' to those new items, and allow the actually usable ones to be let go to those who actually need it. Opinions please.

[Jubaris]

I agree with Udgard.


Also, I think it's the best choice that we collect some coins, and send Udgard to academics of skinning and blacksmithing, so he can eventually make those ones as well (I guess it would scr*w up your role, but you're the only stabile crafter m8, dunno would you consider it )

[Amoran Kalamanira Kol]

Czez: I think its absolutely fine if you are using the items to keep them in your inventory UNTIL they are used, however when I speak of hoarding I merely mean that people collect such items simply for the sake of collecting them or ending up at the top of a list.

If you look on the item owner's list, there is an account that has a massive number of items- specifically metal items and the like- who doesn't appear to be active at all. Metal items are by far the most difficult items to gather in MD and I see this person having at least 4, perhaps 5 of them.

The point is, it does not help to hoard the items that would under normal circumstances be most useful, in fact it hurts the creation process more than anything.

I believe that having markets for each land would be a somewhat decent idea, and it would only make sense to me that such markets should exist.. however, how would such a thing work? Who would manage it? Would it be self automated or would it be something similar to the Material Vault?

Marvolo:
The weight thing is a good idea, it'd keep people from carrying too many, though... I think the crafters would be very slow!

[quote]"The current usable items allow for dynamic item creation, for example you could have an lumber axe and if you are in certain places on the map the axe could spawn a certain number if wood chunks for example. This can be made for example for christals, metals etc. The other items such as tools , could convert a certain number of raw materials in your inventory into a more rare items. This sounds nice I know. There is also a restricted place in MB reserved for a possible mining camp...but...what is the impact of such a feature on the long run...how would you get a manufacturing tool or a gathering tool.

I am afraid this will only make strong players richer and will cause a huge item inflation destroyin the importance of items overall.

still thinking about it..."[/quote]

It would definitely be an interesting concept but I understand the complications of it.


(edit: sorry, skimming through the topic bit by bit.. haven't checked it for a few days.)

Edited January 23, 2010 by Amoran Kalamanira Kol

[I am Bored]

but how many had agiens? there are many more who have raw materials than those who had agiens, and the agiens still had value, they had age, age is value, they were more valuable than the new agiens, there isn't any current way of showing that our's was one of the old raw material, as there was with agiens.

[Asterdai]

the price of the raw items at the moment : when the gemstones were around, i know some were being bought by the hoarders for 1 gold. Im not defending them... but where do you think they got this money from.. either they fed money into the game, won money/items in contests, sold/traded creatures for items/gold or "cheated" people by buying low and selling high.
How much money has Shapeshifter invested in the game? if it is a lot then dont you think he almost deserves the items? how on earht did he get so many...

maybe there can be a section just before Gold coin, on the MD shop which allows you to buy something - say a tool creator part (maybe you would need to unlock all 5 sections of the MD shop to recieve it) that would cost 250 quid or something, i dunno.... and someone who spent that much money .. do they deserve something like that?

where does that leave the rest of us (kinda but not really me, i mean i CAN afford a few investments in MD) that have to rely on voting for MD. silver coins that can be used for trading can be obtained by quests, even gold has been given as a prize and items probably will be too, so i guess this is how they can do it. It Still involves SOMEONE investing in the game,

hard to know where im going with this. Its just i know that the raw materials were being bought at a "high" price in comparison to objects sold by Arcuna Krishkah at the item auction 6 months before (i bought a cloth breathing mask for 4 silver...which i gave away selflessly in RP to someone who left the game a week later, just one of those things..)

What about gold and silver? will this "flood" the market and depriciate too??
will there be a way to "lose" silver for good, in return for raw items like a shop

i am not defending anyone, i dont really have an opinion, you might not agree with somethings i said, but this is part of a discussion and i dont think i should be rated down for saying these things,not that they seem of high importance to some really good points you guys have come up with

Asterdai

Edited January 23, 2010 by Asterdai

[I am Bored]

i still think that the idea i suggested would satisfy all parties, it allows new methods of putting raw materials into the system, and it will satisfy those who already have raw materials, because their current items don't lose value.

[Chewett]

This topic wont ever give everyone full happiness because of the key split in people.

There are the hoarders that bought really low and sell for massive ammounts, they want to keep owning the market. And then there are people who actually want to use them, Who want it to be cheaper.

Since it is a RP game surely it is clear what party should be appeased.

There needs to be some way to destroy the item monopoly so that everyone can get a few raw materials if they want so they can make their item.

[I am Bored]

we don't sell them for massive amounts.

unless you just limit the number of raw materials a person can have, not overall items, as was suggested previously....

and one question, slightly offtopic, why are my posts the only ones rated negativly?

pehaps we would get somewhere if we had a meeting of both parties, as we will eventually get somewhere using the forum, but i think it might go slightly faster if we had a meeting of both parties in md, and because of the number of those who aren't in the " item hoarder's " catagory, we must have a few designated people who will be able to represent their side's interests well, but they must also be a person who is willing to make compromises, otherwise we won't get anywhere.

one final point i would like to make is that items were meant to be rare and special.

Edited January 25, 2010 by I am Bored

[Pipstickz]

Raw items weren't made to be rare and special, which is why there's more than one of them.

[Yoshi]

[2010-01-25 04:32:15 - Alpha 9]
Usable items can now be configured to return to creator (or a predefined account) when they exhaust all their uses. The returned items will show info about the last owner, such as playername, location it was when last used, storage amount (if used), and time of return. I am not sure for what I could use all these, but maybe they are usefull for certain type of quests or recycleble items of some sort. To make things clear, all these features are new feature of the inventory items. They are not yet used on the current items (except a few for test). I will start to use these new features to enhance existing and fure items based on your suggestions (forum) and based on how i think best. [i][u][b]I am aiming to make items more common for more players and turn them into an essential part of the gameplay and not just collectibles.[/b][/u][/i]

I believe they were originally meant to be only rare very special things but now they are going to be more common.

[Chewett]

[quote name='I am Bored' date='25 January 2010 - 12:31 AM' timestamp='1264379490' post='53353']
we don't sell them for massive amounts.
[/quote]

And have you tried to buy some? i got a quote for some raw materials, just one gemstone, 35 silver...

And no as Yoshi posted, Mur is trying to make them more common.

If i were you i would sell quickly at a high price before the market drops. Otherwise you might have bought a load of stuff at a high price that you will never recover.

[cutler121]

[quote name='Chewett' date='25 January 2010 - 06:45 AM' timestamp='1264401903' post='53371']

If i were you i would sell quickly at a high price before the market drops. Otherwise you might have bought a load of stuff at a high price that you will never recover.
[/quote]

Why are you trying to help them? Wouldn't it be better they lost out for all the difficulty the hoarders caused others?

Cutler