Hoarding Of Creation Items

[Orlando Gardiner]

[quote name='I am Bored' date='25 January 2010 - 12:31 AM' timestamp='1264379490' post='53353']
we don't sell them for massive amounts.

unless you just limit the number of raw materials a person can have, not overall items, as was suggested previously....

and one question, slightly offtopic, why are my posts the only ones rated negativly?

pehaps we would get somewhere if we had a meeting of both parties, as we will eventually get somewhere using the forum, but i think it might go slightly faster if we had a meeting of both parties in md, and because of the number of those who aren't in the " item hoarder's " catagory, we must have a few designated people who will be able to represent their side's interests well, but they must also be a person who is willing to make compromises, otherwise we won't get anywhere.

one final point i would like to make is that items were meant to be rare and special.
[/quote]

You'r rated negative because people don't like your opinion.., if you want positief post you shoud say exactly what others want you to say;)

[Firsanthalas]

[quote]we don't sell them for massive amounts.[/quote]
Erm, you said yourself earlier 30 silver for an ingredient item. Now some items require 3, perhaps more ingredients to make. So that would put the price at anything up to 120 silver and that's without factoring in the WP cost. To me that seems to be making the cost of getting items made rather excessive don't you think? And especially when you consider that many items won't even do anything. You could perhaps think that paying for an item with spell like abilities would be worth that kind of money, but an item that doesn't actually do anything?
Seems completely unrealistic to me.
As for items being devalued and you loosing out. Sorry, but your attitude seems to be that of a person seeking to take advantage of your fellows. In short, if you seek to exploit people, refuse to trade for fair prices and subsequently miss out. Well.... lets just say I won't loose any sleep.

[Kriskah Arcanu]

I do believe that the item's creation, and later, the item trading, should be something that involves lots of people not just a few. I know some people believe hoarding is something that we should respect, but I would say hoarding only makes people less and less interested on the items market.

I consider that the hole idea of extraccion/creation/trading should be very diverse and complex and involve as much interaccion from the MD community as possible. This could sound too idealistic, but I believe it is the only way to make it really interesting.

During the firsts auctions taking place on MD, I as a merchant never hoarded and it was fun, we where able to emulate a market fair,and many people could participate because the prices wherent so high. I dont know... maybe I have a different aproach on this... all Im saying is that REAL ACCESS to the market and item creation its required to make it interesting.

Regards,
K

Edited January 25, 2010 by Kriskah Arcanu

[Muratus del Mur]

items will still be stplitted in rare and common items. Raw materials might get more common , such as silver for example, but if so they will also have a different dynamic. Maybe they will be just temporary untill you convert them into somethign or gain something for them. The rare or unique items will remain unique, their value won't change, in fact it might grow once they get any kind of usability.

You better don't haste to make assumptions on what it will be. I am still not sure of the things i can do with the new features. It might surprise me as well in the end.

The only stable things you can rely on are the things i place in the announcements. Here on forum i say ideas, how things might be , etc. If you want to plan ahead and anticipate if the item value will raise or drop, its your own risk.

[aaront222]

I just got an idea!
If the shops are implemented if you buy the raws for silver you can sell them for silver too!
When combined with the tools this will likely create a well flowing economy that fluctuates with supply and demand!
(to IAB by rediculos prices do you mean when you wanted to buy mine and i responded with the most outrageous price possible)

[I am Bored]

i must ask how do you think i got the silver and gold i got? i have sacrificed almost nothing... 1 gold for an item.... i wouldn't have bought that item, most of mine i was able to buy for at most 3 silver, as i have posted before, i am great at getting a great price on things, and i have only sold a few of my items.... btw i'm looking to buy another bottle of alchohol, need one for the bartender at my pub and my last post was made before that announcement, and at that point mur had said nothing about items in the announcements about wanting them to be commonish.

(btw i am only putting this in a new post so this topic is shown to have a new post)

If there is any other way you can think of that would apeal to both sides, then by all means, or if there are specific parts of my suggestion you dislike, then by all means mention them, that way i can help further the resolution of this problem.

(same reason for a new post as above)

So I take it that no one has any real objections to my suggestion?

Edited February 4, 2010 by dst

[dst]

I believe we got bored of your posts and of the hole subject, that's why you do not get any answer (and I am merging all your posts).

Actually, I wanted to point out a new issue:it seems there are some players that grab the items put in Wasp Totem then never return them. And you IAB are one of them.
I even seen a player that actually doesn't play (just logs in for his active days) that have 2 of the items on him. Why do you people keep the items after you use them? Let them go so others can try them! Shish!

Edited February 4, 2010 by dst

[I am Bored]

i don't have any heat i can't use mine, although i think there is another that does the same thing that is floating around somewhere....

[dst]

That's even worse! You say you don't have heat and can't use it but you keep it. Why? Just cause of that stupid list? I wish Mur would make a list with all the characters that have items and put them in alphabetical order. Maybe this way such behavior can be prevented.



[quote name='Czez' date='22 January 2010 - 11:37 PM' timestamp='1264196249' post='53256']
She also posses a number of 'Raw' items. One of them I bought. They are not for sale or trade, and certainly not for profit. That is not hoarding. I've long wanted to comission special items for her role, and use some of the items she has in quests. Currently, she actively employs almost all of the items, [i]including the Raws[/i], in RP.
[/quote]

That's not hoarding? No s***!
You use them for role playing? Lately I have been traveling a lot around MD and I never once saw you RP with items. Use items in quests? How? I am curious cause I am always interested in quests and I haven't seen none from your side...


I am not a fan of Calyx but I really appreciated that she "freed" her items. And she was quite high on that list.She earned a white ball in my top (not that it is anyone's business but just as a fun fact ).
So I say: ban the top list! Make an alphabetical list in case we need to see which player has what item.
As for the other suggestions:some of them are really good but they will be inefficient if we continue to have players like Shape Shifter for example and if we continue to have such lists. Bah!


ps: I don't like items and I bought items just once just to trade them for something better. And I have never regretted my deal.

[I am Bored]

and the answer is no i don't keep the item for the top list, i don't give a ***** about that list, if i can't be top (which i can't) then i don't care where i am on the list.

[Firsanthalas]

That just makes it even worse imo. Your basically saying that your sole purpose is to make profit. I accept that people will seek to make profit, but at what point does one differentiate making profit and stymying the game? You make profit by trading, yet it appears that many people refuse to trade items altogether, or at the very least, only for ridiculous prices.
If you buy an item for 3 silver (an item that was most likely received by a person for free I might add) and then seek to sell it on for 30; do you not think that is beyond making a profit? Do you not think that is extortionate?
Furthermore, if people start to realise the crazy prices being asked for raw materials and items in general, then will that not lead to a spiral in price? Your 3 silver will become 10 and then your asking price a hundred?
If this continues I will tell you exactly what will happen. People will not trade and there will be no item creation by the general public. At the very least, only the wealthiest people in MD will be able afford items. And imo some of these 'wealthy elite' will be the wheelers and dealers who don't seem to contribute much to MD other than lining their own pockets.

If this continues you might as well change MD to 'Make Dosh', the game of monopoly building and cartels.

Edited February 6, 2010 by Firsanthalas

[I am Bored]

no, as another reason that i have the price at that is to prevent too much hoarding, meaning people who would just buy it to have an item, which isn't what they are meant for, and yes part of my reason for buying them was to get a profit, but that wasn't my original reason, my original reason was to get them away from those who would just dissapear offline and take their items with them forever, and i haven't been even attempting to buy any any time recently.

[Rendril]

Let me see if I understand this.
You are hoarding the items, so that they do not get hoarded?

Regardless of whether you actaully believe this logic, you keep directing what is complaint of [i]general[/i] item hoarding to your [i]specific[/i] case. I am most certain that this reasoning does not apply to the other hoarders.

[I am Bored]

ok, well i am just givning my input, as there doesn't seem to be anyone who would be considered an item hoarder posting in this topic, i am the closest to that which is actually posting on this topic, and no i'm not hoarding them, as i am willing to trade them,

Edited February 7, 2010 by Chewett
removed what you shouldnt have posted

[Pipstickz]

For prices nobody wants to pay, and prices I highly doubt were intended.

Edit: You say you have high prices so people don't hoard the items you sell, but who has enough silver to afford your items? Probably most of the hoarders.

Edited February 7, 2010 by Pipstickz

[Phantom Orchid]

Perhaps an item might be created, such as a thief's tool, which could allow one to steal items from players who hoard more than 'x' number of items. Because having so many items [i]must[/i] be hard to keep track of.

Or perhaps some other system of balance for items... As this top-heavy capitalistic ideal of self-serving appropriation is probably the most unbalanced system ever.

[Sasha Lilias]

Alot of us have gained items through hard work or roleplay. Some people think that it is a MUST.
I agree that the hoarding of items in rude and annoying but surely if they bought them they should be able to decide wether they sell them or not.
Perhaps the raw materials can be made to be more common, perhaps through quests of some description?(When I say be more common I mean more of them created)

Edited February 7, 2010 by Sasha Lilias

[Shadowseeker]

Not sure if I can agree with that..Key items I personally would keep are actually just 3, if I had to discard all others.

Essentially, it's a matter of the values people see in items..each of the non raw material/coin ones etc is unique, so they tend to get more value.

That and, who doesn't like having more items which you think are nice? If people actually came to me trying to convince me, one way or another, it isnt like I wouldn't argue..depending on what is asked for and why.

In the end it is about who has something and who doesn't, and those who like to display it.

[Metal Bunny]

Hands up if you are an economics student or graduated already. *hands up*

The logic used in this topic is preposterous and ridiculous.

I can go on and on about why, but I just don't feel like it.

However the main problem persists. The sheer amount of items is far to scarce, driving prices up, regardless of moral objections.
The demand is far too high and the supply is far too low. Besides that, supply is a fixed amount, and decay isn't a factor.

Solutions range from introducing decay and the ability to manufacture without restriction. Though I doubt this will happen soon.
Or, flood the market with items. Both will artificially inflate the items and deflate the worth of money.

Item inflation is necessary as the inflow of money, thanks to the MDshop, is theoretically infinite and has shown to be increasing at a faster rate than the inflow of items, which drives prices up, or from another perspective, devalues money.
Hoarding will always occur, especially since the worth of items here, even the most useless scrap of concrete, is worth tons, meaning that money is becoming more and more worthless and people tend to stockpile that which at least retains their advertised value, much like gold.
When the growth of money is higher than the growth of the sum amount of increased production, or in MD's case, items, then money will become more and more worthless. Right now, items are fulfilling the function of gold in the real world. Very little inflation compared to the amount of money printed. Value fixed (it's money that is becoming more and more worthless) and it doesn't decay. And apparently, partially thanks to the list, it holds social value.

Basically, it means that that crappy piece of concrete you were holding on to, is still worthless and crappy. It's just that the worth of money became even more worthless, because there is more money to buy the same amount of stuff with.

Even if you introduce something that will allow the inflation of items to grow at a constant and somewhat equal rate to the inflation of money, hoarders will still persist.
It's just that, especially if you introduce decay (at least to some items), due to the sheer amount of items and the relative reduced value of items compared to the amount of money in the system, that the hoarders can no longer operate as an oligarchy, stifling trade with an unofficial cartel.


So.. there isn't anything legal you can do to this hoarding problem, other than social pressure or begging mur to inflate items.

Until then, well.. wait, because I'm not going to pay 70 silver for a piece of salad.
And please stop complaining, lol. It's a structural problem mostly, meaning that this topic will just go on and on forever, until either the inflation of money, or lack of inflation in items is addressed.

Edited February 7, 2010 by Metal Bunny

[Shadowseeker]

It's also because there is no real way to spend the coins but amongst trades..nothing like health refills, more AP etc.

If you were able to buy them for a certain amount of silver, it would greatly help reduc inflation, possibly even introduce deflation.

[Rendril]

At the risk of going off-topic, what if there was a tax on silver transfer?
Lets say 10% gets given to a charity/random newbie/treasury/worthy cause.

[Jubaris]

aha, now we're talking

taxes based on lands? Kings claim the tax of every trade of their citizens?

[Pipstickz]

Then they could just give it back to their citizens

I say make a banker alliance xD

[Jubaris]

possibly (taxes could be adjustible by kings), but most likely, it would go into the budget of the land

[Chewett]

So how do you tax trades?

unless you revamp the system, how would you make people pay these taxes? unless you work it from every X coins traded you have to pay some, it wont work since how does the system know every time you "trade"?