Rebel System

[Pipstickz]

For the last few weeks or whatever, I've been watching and involved in the Necrovion rebellion, and have noticed a problem with the rebel system in general; if one is to rebel, they can't actually do anything without the help of Mur. The only thing that has gotten done throughout the Necrovion rebellion is bickering that hasn't gotten anybody anywhere, and Necrovion remains stagnant.

If all GG citizens were to rebel tomorrow, would it actually get anything done? Or could Yrth simply say "Meh, I don't need you people" and continue his business?

So, I propose that either the rebel system is changed or taken out until such changes can be made.

Discuss/suggest, but don't make this into an argument about Necrovion rebellion, please; it's about rebel system as a whole. Thanks.

[Aysun]

What you're looking for has already been proposed in the original rebel thread, pipz.

edit: But for the sake of things (and also because I'm pressed for time at the moment), here's a link to my last post in that thread mentioning problems with that same thing: http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/8355-rebel-rule/page__view__findpost__p__72116

Edited November 24, 2010 by Aysun

[pamplemousse]

I think these are good points you raise, Pip, and I know that you and I have talked at length about what can be done, and you have put yourself forward in a role of a somewhat mediator, which is appreciated. But, that raises another question, what if, as in this case, the King does not wish to speak to the rebels or is absent for large amounts of time?

Trying to speak objectively here, I believe the burden of action must fall to the Rebels, as they are the ones dissatisfied with the King/Queen and frankly, it comes down to either fish or cut bait. A stalemate doesn't do anyone any good, especially if one side, or both, are not willing to at least have a courteous discussion about things. The whole point of a rebellion should be to get things accomplished, not just raise a stir, then sit around fighting and bickering. I think the fact that the Rebel system was put in place is tool enough for those who wish to make real, [b]positive[/b] change.

I don't believe that Rebels can [b]only[/b] get things done with the help of Mur, and in the end, I believe that there was too much pressure placed on him to step in, and I own up to my part in that pressure. However, if a rebellion feels that there are repeated offenses, or that their voice is being ignored or silenced by the King, there are ways to make it heard; the Council, gathering support of other people and the use of a mediator, among other things.

One of your question was, "does a rebellion get anything done?". I think it is too early to tell, but I do believe that there needs to be a way for citizens who are unhappy with their Ruler to speak out, and to make changes if there are enough people to support the change. The Rebel system may not be perfect, but I do not believe enough time has passed to say that it has failed or that it needs to be altered.

[Chewett]

Im sure that if something indeed reaches a critical mass, the council or mur will step in and prod something into happening. Either that be an election, or some other method of dethronement/punishment for the rebels for a failed rebellion

[Pipstickz]

[quote name='Chewett' timestamp='1290667827' post='73151']
Im sure that if something indeed reaches a critical mass, the council or mur will step in and prod something into happening. Either that be an election, or some other method of dethronement/punishment for the rebels for a failed rebellion
[/quote]
How can you judge whether a rebellion has succeeded or not? For example, not all of the Necrovion rebels simply want Jester dethroned.

Anyways, isn't the point of the rebel system to make citizens able to do something WITHOUT Mur's help?

[Chewett]

[quote name='Pipstickz' timestamp='1290670873' post='73155']
How can you judge whether a rebellion has succeeded or not? For example, not all of the Necrovion rebels simply want Jester dethroned.

Anyways, isn't the point of the rebel system to make citizens able to do something WITHOUT Mur's help?
[/quote]

So, What should they be able to do on their own? currently i dont see anything that rebels can do, so obviously something needs to change?

[Rendril]

Please remember that the rebel system is still underdevelopment. There can't be just one "rebellion resolution procedure" because rebellions can differ in both actions and goals, so there must be a human factor involved in the resolution. Keep an eye out for changes, as you saw yesterday the kingship rules were published.

[Sharpwind]

hmm perhaps it would be enough if every citizen of a land could see the percentage of rebellious people in his land
So then one could bring the subject for discussion if the % is high enough (for example over 65%) and propose alternatives in the foroum

[Kamisha]

The problem is showing the percentage could eaither discourage or facilitate a rebellion. For example if only 10% where rebelling few people would join over 50% would make it increase. There are also in actives which would make a lower percentage.

[Kafuuka]

[quote name='Pipstickz' timestamp='1290636733' post='73115']
Discuss/suggest, but don't make this into an argument about Necrovion rebellion, please; it's about rebel system as a whole. Thanks.
[/quote]
If you don't want me to discuss the Necrovion rebellion, then don't mention you are actively participating in it. For one you couldn't have accomplished everything (this is not a typo), because you didn't bother to talk to all of the characters who are related to Necrovion yet. Why do you think there is a shu item for the king?

As for the % indicator:
1. If people are afraid to join a rebellion because there aren't many who did and are opportunists when things are in favor of the rebellion, this could be remedied by lagging the % indicator by a week. I don't know if it really is an issue though, real rebellions have trouble finding members until it is clear that they will win; nobody likes to join the losing team.
2. If there are multiple rebellion groups who don't feel like cooperating, a single % indicator is misleading.

[Laphers]

I kinda like the % indicator idea but perhaps it should be a colour coded view (green - everything is fine, yellow - something's happening, orange - trouble's brewing, red - the s**t has hit the fan) Then the coders or Mur can decide what percentage each colour change should take place at without informing the populace.

As for active rebels/citizens: make the the counter only count the citizens/rebels who have been active in the last 5 days.


And as to the current ongoing rebellion - perhaps they have to maintain the redzone for a period of time. It is generally known that human nature prefers the status quo as much as we claim otherwise.

[Pipstickz]

I dislike the percentage idea, it does not accurately represent differing opinions and such within a group of people.

The only thing I can think of at this time would be for rebels to choose a candidate for kingship that they support upon becoming a rebel; if every new rebel chooses themself, nothing happens, because all rebels need to accept their candidate's rules, direction, etc. Of course, that does still make it possible for generalization of the many opinions, but Iunno.

[Chewett]

The system works best if you have people to decide it, i doubt any kind of system can be programatically work out if someone is winning a rebllion or something.

[Sharpwind]

[quote name='Pipstickz' timestamp='1290747654' post='73271']
I dislike the percentage idea, it does not accurately represent differing opinions and such within a group of people.

The only thing I can think of at this time would be for rebels to choose a candidate for kingship that they support upon becoming a rebel; if every new rebel chooses themself, nothing happens, because all rebels need to accept their candidate's rules, direction, etc. Of course, that does still make it possible for generalization of the many opinions, but Iunno.
[/quote]

So what you're saying is to have the option when becomming a rebel
of following another rebels ideals (from a list of independant rebels in the land) or be an independant rebel yourself
and so every independant rebel would have a list of followers and if a rebel has a very big number of followers,
in respest to the citizens of the land, that would be a good indicator for changing leadership of the country

If I have understand your idea correctly I find it quite interesting

[Pipstickz]

[quote name='Sharpwind' timestamp='1291051430' post='73701']
So what you're saying is to have the option when becomming a rebel
of following another rebels ideals (from a list of independant rebels in the land) or be an independant rebel yourself
and so every independant rebel would have a list of followers and if a rebel has a very big number of followers,
in respest to the citizens of the land, that would be a good indicator for changing leadership of the country

If I have understand your idea correctly I find it quite interesting
[/quote]
Yep, that's about it.

Having this page also allows for the general public to make more educated decisions, because they could read what each candidate thinks they could do better.

[Yrthilian]

Hmm.. after reading this and thinking on it for a bit i think there is too much focus on what is not there rather than on what is there.
If i do recall it was already mention the system is still under development and much has yet to be complete.
but why focus on what you don't have and more on what you do have.

With this new system in place it give the rebels a chance to push agents the kingship or even agents a kings idea.
This is great as the rebel is protected from the kingship ability and still get to push an argument.
I am sure for each land the player know more or less how many member there are in a land.
This is of a great advantage to the rebels but also to the kingship.

The lower the number of citizens the easer it is for a rebel to cause a uprising
the larger the number of citizens the harder it is.

So say for example a land has 20 active members the rebels only need 11 to be a real pain
but the more the better. You don't need a % system to tell that the rebels are more then the
non rebels. The realm is very small at the moment and number are small in each land so currently it is
easy to know if you out number the kingship.

Now with that in mind you have the forum. So if the rebels believe they have enough backing then use the forum
to make you stand and do what ever you wish to be it the removal of a king or the forcing the change of a decision
it does not matter as you are protected in game and the forums are a great way to get something started.

So it does not matter there is no rebel page to make a statement on use the forum and link to it from your
own papers. Rebels in the RL dont have a page to use to rebel yes there is the internet but MD technically
do not have internet but still use your own papers for the rebel cause the more that are on your side they
too could use their papers and over time the whole rebel cause will be known.

The forum and the player papers can be used to the rebel cause and there for push out the demands of the rebels
I don't see the issue with not knowing the % of the land that does not agree in fact i think knowing the % give an
unfair advantage. as someone may not agree with the kingship on 1 point but the rebels on all point that player that
does not like the 1 point will join the rebels just to get at the king if the new their part would tip the balance
In RL we don't know the % of the population that is annoyed at our government the only way we know is down to the
protesting they do and that give an idea of numbers.

So i say this, Use what tools you have currently been given and make the fight for what you want It is all well and good
making suggestions on what can be used to make the system better but don't expect the changes to be quick.

[Curiose]

I like to state something:

This came up in a conversation, and some things have come to light.

1. In my personal opinion, the only people in Necrovion that I truly believe to be deserving of the rebel status are Keith and Pample, and maybe Roland [depending on if he went rebel before or after he was attacked].

2. I honestly don't like the thought of people getting the status willy nilly [like an undiscovered alt, or a simply disgruntled player like Seigheart]. I was thinking, instead of the rebel status being a one-click deal, that there should be some kind of formality to it...

People should have to state why they are going rebel, and it would have to be reason enough to get the tag instead of becoming a rebel, joining a party, and simply causing havoc. As of right now, that's all this Necrovion rebellion feels like [to me, anyway.] Looking at some of the reasons people have gone rebel... it's ridiculous.

Thoughts and opinions are encouraged.

[Jubaris]

well why not Curiose? One could go rebel just to go bandit, the person could actually make a community within rebel system x) (that would be so cool )
Perhaps maybe adding few faction-differences from those that rebel for a same reason and those they rebel for a different reason, but that can be done by the players themselves and their advertising.

But I would like to see some possibility of conflict, of rebels overthrowing a king with their might, or king crushing the rebels with his might (physical conflict Mur said he'll avoid for now tho.)

[Muratus del Mur]

actual development of things and timelines differ based on various things, i won't go into that now. There are however certain concepts that will be followed with the rebel system. If you understand those its enough reply on my part.

- Like with every new feature don't expect it to be fully stable or complete. The major thing was to aknowledge rebels as a separate type of citizens, how that will evolve depends on many unhappened things.
- I see the rebel status as a sacrifice status. Rebels should suffer for their cause and "pay" to keep their honor. Hopefully that will keep all wannabe rebels away and make rebels a group that is serious about their intentions and not just a bunch of trouble makers
- Being at the same time regular citizen and rebel of same land by using alts means for me a serious moral issue. Whatever automated or human controlled ways there will be to manage this, it will be treated more severe than a simple alt abuse.
- I see rebels like some sort of resistance movement, not a way to protest on short term
- Activity can be measured easy and accurate by counting all active players of that land and comparing rebels vs regular citizens percentage ONLY for the active players in a given period...like a week or a month.


New players don't know it yet but older players should already be aware that you should deal with what there is and not wait for anything else to be finished or added. Some things could get done over night others could take month to complete, other things might change before they get developed. Md development is constant and quite active, but not always in the direction you might expect.

[Windy]

To me rebels should do what they are suppose to do and that is an old fashioned Lynch Mob. Rebels don't politic, they fight. I would love to see a good role played Lynch Mob!