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Ivorak
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dst raised these questions and I'll turn them over to the community:
- Tipu, Azull, and Sunfire have a tag for the knator's mercenaries. Do we consider this a group tag or is it important/specific enough to add these to the list?
- Sunfire didn't actually quit MD despite his forum post. Should he receive the tag "Consul of Loreroot" for his former role?
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Made changes as per Chewett's suggestions (which also reminded me to add Yrthilian to the list; can someone confirm he's still around? If he is there's probably another title or two he should have, right?). And also added Max Mortlock. Also corrected Resurrected Corpse (Lazarus) to Mur. Also fixed order of MR's (should be MRD granting title to MRAlyon, I think. Is that correct?).
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{
"title": "Garden Keeper",
"recipient": "Menhir",
"authorities": {
"granting authority": "Handy Pockets",
"confirming authority": "Zleiphneir"
}
},
Why Z?
{
"title": "Gardener of MDA Garden",
"recipient": "Kempiniukas",
"authorities": {
"granting authority": "Kyphis",
"confirming authority": "Handy Pockets"
}
},
Why only one MDA leader? Surely it should be both or neither to make it fair?
{
"title": "Water Dowser's Leader",
"recipient": "nadrolski",
"authorities": {
"granting authority": "Princ Rhaegar",
"confirming authority": "Handy Pockets"
}
},
Why handy? is this based on "the last two leaders?" In which case it should be princ and me.
{
"title": "King of Marind Bell",
"recipient": "Princ Rhaegar",
"authorities": {
"granting authority": "Muratus del Mur",
"confirming authority": null
}
},
based on this, previous leader confirms, I should be confirming
{
"title": "King of Necrovion",
"recipient": "Azull",
"authorities": {
"granting authority": "Muratus del Mur",
"confirming authority": null
}
},
Same as above, Should probably be peace
{
"title": "Former Master Advertiser",
"recipient": "Junior",
"authorities": {
"granting authority": "Muratus del Mur",
"confirming authority": null
}
},
Should be confirmed by BFH as per current leader confirms previous
{
"title": "King of Golemus Golemicarum",
"recipient": "Grido",
"authorities": {
"granting authority": "Muratus del Mur",
"confirming authority": null
}
},
Confirmed by Yrth as per above
{
"title": "Leader of KoB",
"recipient": "Rikstar",
"authorities": {
"granting authority": "Princ Rhaegar",
"confirming authority": null
}
},
Could confirm by me as previous king
{
"title": "Concierge",
"recipient": "Miq",
"authorities": {
"granting authority": null,
"confirming authority": "phantasm"
}
},
Mur not phantasm
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Remember to remove the comments before giving it to mur FYI, as it wont parse the JS.Thanks Chewett.
- You're right, not Z. Garden is not part of established housings. Changed to Mur confirming.
- As for Kempiniukas, his role is older than either of his land leaders so it could also be granted by Mur and confirmed by one of the land leaders. Or granted and confirmed by his land leaders to be fair.
- nadrolski shall be Princ Rhaegar and Chewett.
- Azull is a current leader, is he not? Why would Peace confirm his title?
- Mur awards Miq, no confirming
As for the others, Chewett, you seem to have previous rulers being awarded by the present rulers and present rulers awarded by their priors. I don't think that makes sense (you have no authority to give a title until you receive a title from the person whose title you are giving) and I don't believe it was stated that it should occur that way, but I might have missed something. I thought we said current land leaders would get there titles from Mur and reward previous land leaders their titles going back. The one case where this doesn't occur isn't a land leader position and is required because BFH does not have the time to be involved.
I've also removed "former" from the titles. And added Innocence back to the list.
Edit: Been away a little, just noticed there are other topics I'm behind on. Apologize if I made any mistakes here before I catch up on those.
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Thanks, Intrigue. Fixed.
Before I submit this round to Mur, any further suggestions? We're talking about the list at https://titanpad.com/A2GfPvEanN, which looks like this:
{ "titles": [ { "title": "MDA Land Leader", "recipient": "Kyphis", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Muratus del Mur", "confirming authority": null } }, { "title": "Seed Keeper", "recipient": "Handy Pockets", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Muratus del Mur", "confirming authority": null } }, { "title": "King of Necrovion", "recipient": "Azull", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Muratus del Mur", "confirming authority": null } }, { "title": "Queen of Necrovion", "recipient": "Peace", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Muratus del Mur", "confirming authority": null } }, { "title": "Leader of the Underground", "recipient": "dst", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Muratus del Mur", "confirming authority": null } }, { "title": "Bugs Researcher", "recipient": "dst", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Muratus del Mur", "confirming authority": "Chewett" } }, { "title": "Watching You", "recipient": "dst", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Muratus del Mur", "confirming authority": null } }, { "title": "Judge", "recipient": "dst", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Muratus del Mur", "confirming authority": null } }, { "title": "Judge", "recipient": "Ailith", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Muratus del Mur", "confirming authority": null } }, { "title": "Judge", "recipient": "Granos", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Muratus del Mur", "confirming authority": null } }, { "title": "Seeker of the Void", "recipient": "Granos", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Muratus del Mur", "confirming authority": null } }, { "title": "Tainted", "recipient": "Assira the Black", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Granos", "confirming authority": "Ailith" } }, { "title": "MDA Land Leader", "recipient": "darkraptor", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Muratus del Mur", "confirming authority": null } }, { "title": "Gardener of MDA Garden", "recipient": "Kempiniukas", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Kyphis", "confirming authority": "Handy Pockets" } }, { "title": "Garden Keeper", "recipient": "Menhir", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Handy Pockets", "confirming authority": "Zleiphneir" } }, { "title": "Consul of Loreroot", "recipient": "Mya Celestia", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Muratus del Mur", "confirming authority": null } }, { "title": "Water Dowser's Leader", "recipient": "nadrolski", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Princ Rhaegar", "confirming authority": "Handy Pockets" } }, { "title": "King of Marind Bell", "recipient": "Princ Rhaegar", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Muratus del Mur", "confirming authority": null } }, { "title": "Code Guardian", "recipient": "Chewett", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Muratus del Mur", "confirming authority": null } }, { "title": "Former Queen of Marind Bell", "recipient": "Handy Pockets", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Muratus del Mur", "confirming authority": "Princ Rhaegar" } }, { "title": "Former King of Marind Bell", "recipient": "Chewett", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Muratus del Mur", "confirming authority": "Princ Rhaegar" } }, { "title": "Avatar Manager", "recipient": "Neno Veliki", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Muratus del Mur" "confirming authority": null } }, { "title": "Master Advertiser", "recipient": "BFH", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Muratus del Mur", "confirming authority": "Junior" } }, { "title": "Former Master Advertiser", "recipient": "Junior", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Muratus del Mur", "confirming authority": null } }, { "title": "Seedwalker", "recipient": "Rophs", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Handy Pockets", "confirming authority": "Muratus del Mur" } }, { "title": "King of Golemus Golemicarum", "recipient": "Grido", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Muratus del Mur", "confirming authority": null } }, { "title": "Head LHO", "recipient": "Grido", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Muratus del Mur", "confirming authority": null } }, { "title": "DracHorn Master", "recipient": "Burns", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Muratus del Mur", "confirming authority": null } }, { "title": "Ardent Knight", "recipient": "Burns", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Shadowseeker", "confirming authority": "Muratus del Mur" } }, { "title": "LHO Second in Command", "recipient": "Burns", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Grido", "confirming authority": "Muratus del Mur" } }, { "title": "Knight of the Hunt", "recipient": "Shadowseeker", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Muratus del Mur", "confirming authority": null } }, { "title": "Resurrected Corpse", "recipient": "Lazarus", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Granos", // not sure about this one either "confirming authority": null } }, { "title": "Protector of Golemus", "recipient": "MRD", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Muratus del Mur", "confirming authority": "Grido" // old title, but still under authority of the king } }, { "title": "Former Leader of the MR's", "recipient": "MRD", "authorities": { "granting authority": "MRAlyon", "confirming authority": "Muratus del Mur" } }, { "title": "MR's Commander", "recipient": "MRAlyon", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Muratus del Mur", // (MRD if active) "confirming authority": null } }, { "title": "Abettor", "recipient": "No one", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Muratus del Mur", "confirming authority": null // Who does he abet? } }, { "title": "Co Leader of the Treasure Keepers", "recipient": "Pipstickz", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Muratus del Mur", "confirming authority": null } }, { "title": "MasterChief", "recipient": "phantasm", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Muratus del Mur", "confirming authority": null } }, { "title": "Leader of KoB", "recipient": "Rikstar", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Princ Rhaegar", "confirming authority": null } }, { "title": "Child of Necrovion", "recipient": "Syrian", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Azull" "confirming authority": "Peace" } }, { "title": "Guardian's Echo", "recipient": "WHIsper", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Zleiphneir", "confirming authority": "Muratus del Mur" } }, { "title": "Guardian of Bob", "recipient": "Zleiphneir", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Muratus del Mur", "confirming authority": null } }, { "title": "Concierge", "recipient": "Miq", "authorities": { "granting authority": null, "confirming authority": "phantasm" } }, { "title": "Former Boss Heads Master", "recipient": "Eon", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Muratus del Mur", "confirming authority": null } }, { "title": "Son of the Storms", "recipient": "Marvolo", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Muratus del Mur", "confirming authority": null } }, { "title": "Secret Ary", "recipient": "Ivorak", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Muratus del Mur", "confirming authority": null } }, { "title": "Pilgrim of Marind Bell", "recipient": "Emerald Arcanix", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Princ Rhaegar", "confirming authority": "Muratus del Mur" } } ] } -
Rophs, what's the status of this?
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After hearing from Rhaegar, I have:
- Fixed nadrolski's title to "Water Dowser's Leader" from "Water Dowser Leader"
- Moved Rikstar and Clock Master to a new waiting list (to be dealt with next round) section at the end of the doc.
- Added Emerald Arcanix
{ "title": "Pilgrim of Marind Bell", "recipient": "Emerald Arcanix", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Princ Rhaegar", "confirming authority": "Muratus del Mur" } }Also moved Innocence to the waiting list, as the title is disputed.
See the up to date list here: https://titanpad.com/A2GfPvEanN
Kiley, redneck, and Fire Starter should receive titles to match their tags; can anyone confirm them active? Or would anyone care to dispute redneck's tag, "The mosquito"?
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Oh. Thanks for clarifying Azull. I have removed that comment.
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New changes
- Removed gonzalocsdf for the time being since this is a new title (gonzalocsdf doesn't already have this tag.
{ "title": "Freelance Artist", "recipient": "gonzalocsdf", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Muratus del Mur" "confirming authority": "Mya Celestia" // proposed the title } }- Fixed MRD's authorities
{ "title": "Protector of Golemus", "recipient": "MRD", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Muratus del Mur", "confirming authority": "Grido" // old title, but still under authority of the king } }, { "title": "Former Leader of the MR's", "recipient": "MRD", "authorities": { "granting authority": "MRAlyon", // current title holders will grant former title holders their for the present "confirming authority": "Muratus del Mur" }- Added Junior as confirming authority to BFH (N.B. this is the reverse of the general scheme of current title holders granting former title holders, but see http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/15649-md-titles-updated-list-with-suggested-hierarchy/?p=153739)
{ "title": "Master Advertiser", "recipient": "BFH", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Muratus del Mur", "confirming authority": "Junior" // opposite current scheme of current confirming former } }- Added Junior as Former Master Advertiser (now Junior can confirm BFH as above)
{ "title": "Former Master Advertiser", "recipient": "Junior", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Muratus del Mur", "confirming authority": null } }- Added myself (Ivorak) as Secret Ary
{ "title": "Secret Ary", "recipient": "Ivorak", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Muratus del Mur", "confirming authority": null } }- Added Innocence as Raconteur
{ "title": "Raconteur", "recipient": "Innocence", "authorities": { "granting authority": "Kyphis", // current land leader "confirming authority": "darkraptor" // current land leader } }Next up
- Can someone confirm the proper spelling of Clock Master's title?
- There are more players with tags who haven't been confirmed active. Some are on this list: https://titanpad.com/OR5EOoBWdW
- I've seen some players from Loreroot with tags such as Loreroot Judge, but forgot to note them down.
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Thanks, Chewett.
Everyone else, please take a look at the other TitanPad at https://titanpad.com/OR5EOoBWdW so we can add the players we have missed and start to figure out who the granting and confirming authorities are for those players.
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I've edited the doc with the rest of your comments and I also realized along the way why you were repeating things I had already fixed, when I edited the first post to replace the Google Drive link with a TitanPad link, I replaced the text but not the reference... I've fixed that now, sorry. The doc you should be looking at is https://titanpad.com/A2GfPvEanN.
Judge is a group tag, but an important one. Should it be kept?
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I will respond / edit the doc for each post shortly, but there are a few important issues to be sorted out. I'll explain the problems which lead to this messiness and then you can correct me or suggest fixes.
1. Mur wants existing tags to become titles, so some shoehorning of old roles into the new hierarchy may be necessary.
2. I need to check this with Mur, but I don't think council can be an authority because it's not an individual and the individuals who it consists of are secret.
3. Alliance leaders should come from kings/land leaders, unless that the alliance has no higher authority.
4. If all miscellaneous tags come from Mur or the Council, that doesn't allow for one of the primary goals of the titles, which is a self emergent hierarchy in the realm.
5. All titles that don't come directly from Mur are required to have two signators (a granting authority and a confirming authority). If I didn't include two above it's because I couldn't think of a suitable authority (as you've noticed, I should have written in a lot more nulls).
The whole title system is a mess because it needs to take in account existing systems, and because it doesn't represent purely political roles (otherwise we'd just go kings as the first tier and then on down). For example, Avatar Manager might have a granting authority who has the role of Master Artist but there is no Master Artist.
Grido never aksed council to confirm his appointment, so its unoffical atm FYI
I'm glad you brought this up. I tried asking the council about this and never got a response so I instead "confirmed" with a poll of some citizens. I should definitely have gone to you but lost track of that thought in the shuffle of everything else.
Keep the comments coming.
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I swapped the Google Drive link with a TitanPad link. Please avoid editing the TitanPad directly and instead leave comments in this forum thread.
Ary's title has been removed. Shadowseeker has been removed as an authority on Rikstar's title. BFH has been removed whereover he was listed as an authority.
Keep the comments coming!
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I need you to do the following:
1. If you are listed as a granting authority or confirming authority, for all such titles post whether or not you are willing to take a part in the granting of that title.
2. Note any errors/discrepancies in titles/tags.
3. Suggest a different granting authority/confirming authority if there is a more suitable role. Null values are only permitted if Mur is the granting authority.
4. Suggest further titles to be granted. This list is still incomplete. (There are about 200 titles to be given out, this list currently only has 50 listed. I thought I'd post before I went to bed.) One way to help is to confirm activity/tag text for the players listed (or not listed) here: https://titanpad.com/OR5EOoBWdW
At this time, avoid voting on who should or should not receive titles. Each title shall be put to a vote, to be considered by Mur, but we'll hold that off a little longer so we can do it in a more organized fashion.
View the list here: https://titanpad.com/A2GfPvEanN. Please avoid editing the document directly and instead leave comments in this forum thread.
When I have more time I will provide other lists based on this data to make sorting through it easier.
Edit: my previous edit to replace the Google Docs link with TitanPad, replaced the text but kept the same href in the hyperlink. Oops.
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In what way do "niche" groups like the flag groups play into this? It would fit into the title hierarchy and could be used to promote the social groups. I don't see a must to do so, but reintegrating them into the new systems might be worth a thought.
I actually suggested that to Mur as pertaining to your title, but Mur responded "that's not really an achievement". But I assume you got it for something, so perhaps you could remind him of that something?
On another note, leaders of alliances who have been at the role for a while should probably receive titles. Though the alliances are mostly under the authority of one land or another so that should already be covered by their respective kings, right?
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@dst, Dark Demon has actually somewhat clarified Mur's intent. Though I must add that it's not a straight vote, Mur will have the final word on these matters.
@Burns, Granos was actually on my original list of possibilities and I lost his name in the shuffle.
@Dark Demon, if you think names on the list are inactive, please list them, so others can discuss and we can cross them off. Though some may go on a separate list to be awarded if they return later.
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So you're asking who will give out titles that aren't leader roles or land related?
Correct. And yes, the list is a bit confused because, for instance, it might make more sense for Innocence to receive her title via Kyphis and darkraptor (provided she gets one at all).
Edit:
To clarify not so much "who will give out titles..." but "who do you think should be able to give out titles..." In other words, I not asking Mur, I'm asking this for Mur.
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The granting of titles/roles will soon be accompanied by a quality physical document, a collector's item as described in this topic: http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/15247-important-future-way-of-granting-titlesroles/.
Additionally, future titles will not be awarded solely by Mur or the Council but in a hierarchical fashion. For example, Mur will be awarding titles to the kings and other land leaders, and those land leaders may in turn grant titles to those with roles pertaining to their respective lands. It's comparable to the feudal system where a king may award a faithful follower with the title and authority of a lord, and that lord may in turn knight his men, to serve him as he himself serves his liege. Of course, in MD there is less of a notion of noble blood and fewer political structures (and a greater sense of merit); a "Master Artist" might have the same authority to grant titles as a king, albeit under a different dominion. A "Master Artist" might award the title "Avatar Manager" whereas a king would be more likely to award a title related to the management of his own land.
Unfortunately, I've been unable to come up with a suitable candidate for "Master Artist", which brings us to the purpose of this thread: "Who deserves the authority to award titles?" and, to a lesser degree, "Who deserves a title?" Mur will have the final say regarding the first question, while the second question will be mostly left to those whose names are an answer to the first. The list below is provided not as an indication of who will be awarded titles, except as a rough sketch. Please comment on the list provided and suggest additions. Keep in mind that to receive a title a player must be currently active (though we will maintain a list of those who may be awarded if they reappear) and should have a specific concrete role for the title.
Without further ado, my draft list (in no particular order):
- *Chewett* - Code Guardian, etc.
- *Grido* - Head LHO, King of Golemus Golemicarum
- Kyphis - MDA Chancellor
- darkraptor - MDA Chancellor
- dst - Leader of the Underground, Bugs, etc.
- *Burns* - DracHorn Master
- Shadowseeker - Researcher
- Princ Rhaegar - King of Marind Bell
- Azull - King of Necrovion
- *Peace* - Queen of Necrovion
- Zleiphneir - Tengri, Defenders of Bob
- Eon - Legendary Fighter, Assassin/Executioner
- Mya Celestia - Consul of Loreroot
- *Sunfire* - Consul of Loreroot (inactive according to http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/15604-time-for-a-break/#entry153211)
- Nimrodel - Quest Organizer
- Awiiya - Rooted Philosopher
- Neno Veliki - Avatar Manager
- Fire Starter - Avatar Manager
- BFH - Master Advertiser
- Pipstickz - Treasure Keepers
- Max Mortlock - Treasure Keepers
- Innocence - Head of the Archivists
It's a bit rough, I'm already catching errors or flaws in reasoning I haven't addressed, but that should help you get started in tearing it apart. In a constructive fashion, I hope. :)
P.S. Land leaders, please don't forget the related forum PM I should have sent to all of you. -
I am compiling an initial list for Mur of those who should be able to grant titles. To that end, it would be helpful if this topic was further considered and commented on.
I will be send Mur my list soon, he may strike from or add to the list some names, and then it will be presented for public comment. It includes mainly land leaders and some other key figures (Chewett, Grido, etcetera). What I feel I'm lacking most at this time are players who have important and well defined roles that are independent from the four main lands (those who are citizens of the main lands will be awarded titles through their sovereign).
- Azthor and Muratus del Mur
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ADD "Request for comment" or something along those lines, as there are a number of announcements, often referring to forum posts, asking for feedback/ideas regarding a certain topic.
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A key that locks/unlocks the cellar door in MDA.
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Some thoughts about how lands should operate:
- Lands should organize activities and quests. Some (but not all) of these should be for citizens only.
- Quests need not only be solved by more or less predefined paths. Leaders could award bounties for non-citizen outlaws, for one.
- Citizen only quests should be awarded from land treasuries rather than with wishpoints and the treasure keepers' stock.
- There is also the opportunity to award ranks and titles instead of other rewards.
- There should be more opportunities for lands to increase their treasuries through competition amongst the lands.
- Leaders should have great power over their land's citizens. They should also exert their influence to punish/reward citizens of other lands as they are able.
- These powers should stop short of life and death (at least as far as powers inherent to leaders; still doesn't prevent them from using a killing item if they can get a hold of one). But land leaders should be able to jail their own citizens (unless a certain degree of dissent is registered by the rebel system).
- Leaders should extract a vow of fealty from their vassals (unless an explicit political structure is in place that offers an alternative).
- Leaders should protect their citizens from each other especially, but also seek out treaties and agreements with other leaders for the laws that are most important to their land.
- Lands should cultivate their culture carefully. Land powers should be somewhat balanced, but in a dynamic fashion and allowing leaders and citizens to be rewarded for their efforts by improvements to a land.
- Traditions and laws are what should make one land more desirable than another.
- Entry (AP) requirements for lands should not be equal just because of a desire for equality. There are advantages/disadvantages for both low and high AP costs. Leaders should be able to decide which is most suitable for their land.
- More plotting, please! What's the point of controlling a few dozen scenes when you could rule the world?
- Intrigue is fun, duh.
- Also, internal politics. If MagicDuel grows again, Golemus Golemicarum should have a tricameral legislature and Necrovion should have faction upon faction of desert tribes. Or something like that...
Some ideas: benefits to internal trade, such as creature trades between citizens of the same land not reducing won battles or something; citizen only training grounds (though it's up to you to keep non-citizens out); mock battles/tournaments/competitions between lands with wagers to bolster the winning land's treasury (or wager a scene along the border, if you're feeling daring).
I'll think on this more.
- Lands should organize activities and quests. Some (but not all) of these should be for citizens only.
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MD Titles - Updated list with suggested hierarchy
in MD Title Discussion
Posted
Sorry for the slow response; I moved a few hundred miles, started a new job, and hosted a 36 hour hackathon with 300 attendees all in the past week.
This was something Mur said previously, but the situation has changed a lot since then as we've worked out more details about titles. I'll add Sunfire back in. Will hold off on KC mercenaries for now.