Nex

ya mentioned demand not me, i said requesting, anyway its pointless to put that request in here, saying ya gave ally to ppl that betrayed him and then askin for your daddys soul is provocative and counter effective, this wont way of acting wont get it back to ya, if ya used your brain a bit ya would have knew it, but to me it looks like ya really dont care about it, same as ya didnt taken yrth's warning seriously even if he said it A LOT earlier, and then ya played it off like he gave too short time to respond just becoz he posted it 1h before he did it on forum which is bs, he warned ya before, and that forum post was final warning, and now ya are provocating him in order to appear innocent again becoz ya was so good to give ally back to betrayers and then requested from him to give khals soul back bs, idc wot ya wanted to do with ally, thing in here is that this is total disrespectful provocation and indirect accusation (becoz he wont give ya back khals soul and then ya would attack him), ya picked totally wrong place to ask for it, but then again to me it looks like it was on purpose

LOL get serious

[quote name='Lifeline' date='01 October 2009 - 04:50 PM' timestamp='1254408640' post='43413']
i find this whole situation laughable. u want to get rid of a king that in ur point of view hasnt served his land correctly in the near past. then please judge the king on what he did. not just on his own land but compared to all other lands. get an impression of all 4 main lands how they were led and if the person in charge did a good job. make an average and if yrth is way below the performance of all the other dispose him. if he did perform just as good as the leaders of the other lands why replace him then? if u want to replace him then u cant just count on the hatred from the war to take him out u will have to state what u try to accomplish and above all do better than yrth.
[/quote]
Glad you find it humorous. Take an average of the lands? I will and the result is that, yes, Yrthilian has performed badly, duh, why else are we doing this? Have you even read the reasons why (and not just the burning of K and the ousting of Grido one's, there are more).
[quote]
and btw there was obviously a traitor in the alliance that invited peace in and made this whole situation happen. and now members of the alliance revolt against yrth because of what he did in response to stealing the alliance? could it not be possible that this was done on purpose? make him loose the alliance, hope he acts on revenge later on, and then bring up that he is not fit to rule to take it urself? i mean no offence with this and have no clue who the traitor is i just speak of this being a possibility. so please dont take it for more, i dont want to offend any gg member here with this.
[/quote]
Again, it's not just that single action, it is the total of all his bad actions together, and if you still don't get it. It's not just his /bad/ actions, it's also his inactivity. Have you seen how many activity days wodin dropped? I have, and while the total measurement of activity days is not a good and accurate measurement, the /lack/ of activity days is. Wodin is an empty and dead, almost hollow character. And it is not just about Wodin. Yrthilian himself spends an amazing time at his lab, researching. Inside the alliance I felt almost no unity, no kinship with anyone, contrary to when Wodin was in charge. There was a decline after wodin left, yes, but the growth that was to come never fully came. And that was under yrthilian's leadership. Compared to the current growth of Necrovion and how Loreroot recouperated after GG had invaded, I find that yrthilian did an inadequate job.
[quote]
a king cant be taken down by an election dont u agree? a king is a king he decides who gets which statues and job. if u want another status than the king gave u then u have to revolt. especially when u want to title of king then u have to force it. u need to take the king down. there is no election there is a forcefull revolution.
think about this again i guess this makes sense to all parties...
[/quote]
I had hoped I wouldn't have to explain this, because I assumed it was so simple already.
Of course holding a mere vote is not enough to oust someone. You would have to get control over the alliance first and guess what? We do.
In fact, the military coup is done already, all this vote is doing, is ending this military coup, as it is legitimizing the coup based upon popularity votes.
[quote]
a revolution has to be thought through well. it has to be very clear who gets the new king title afterwards. otherwise the land will just be in more chaos. a revolution weakens the land greatly. if the revolution army cant even decide on a king themself then the land is doomed and sooner or later another revolution will take place because the last one was obviously not successful and didnt bring structure into the land.
now Metal Bunny says:

what is this? doesnt sound planned or thought through at all to me. there is no promised structure after the revoltion and disposing of the king. this can just bring more chaos and hurt the land more if there is so little planning being done. this cant be claimed to be for the good of golemus as a land. such an unplanned revolution or whatever it is now will just weaken the land more and more. GG will loose all its respect if its possible to overthrow the land without a new agenda and just more chaos to wait until finally a new leader is elected.
[/quote]
You want real concrete plans? I have them, but again, I won't post them here because it's off-topic. It creates chaos and ensures a 3 page long off-topic debate and makes it all chaotic.
And you need to ask yourself in what status the land is in now, because it's already chaotic. But the moment GG starts recruiting again, and that will be the moment yrthilian is de-throned or stays on the throne, then order will return.

You people are putting all of this waaaaay toooo muuuuch into the real life perspective, but that's not possible!
Where is death? How does loyalty go into all of this? What about Mur?
This is MagicDuel, stop making quite frankly, useless real life analogies.
[quote]
isnt it said u get what u already have in MD? how can u simply elect people for kingship then by popularity? u have to proof that u have the potential to be a king. u need to be able to stand up against the tyrant and take his status. u have to fight for it and go through with the revolution and then put urself into that position because it was u who managed to take down the old king. it is what proofed that u as a future king can stand up agaist a possible threat. if u just lean back afterwards and run an election u obviously dont have what it takes to be king. and above all u lagged all preparation u just "beheaded" the old king and left the land in chaos afterwards just waiting for something to happen to bring structure back into it. u have to bring that structure urself and nobody else if u want a strong land.
[/quote]
Potential for king? I know I do. When wodin left, yrthilian, me and savelfuser ruled together and it worked out fine. Then savelfuser went to loreroot and I decided to advise yrthilian, as I was too busy with RPC and mp6.
I am the frigging emperor of bunnies, you want potential? I give you the fact that since yrthilian no longer commands GG, is proof enough that potential is not the real issue here, it's proven conduct of the leader in the past.

If you want more potential and plans, then once yrthilian is de-throned, I will make a seperate topic and put it all there.
All of these questions are not the real issue.

And why will I not make this topic now?

[i][u]Because I am not arrogant enough to presume to know what Mur wants or will do.[/u][/i]
For all I know, Yrthilian will stay king and then that topic will become useless.

I somehow doubt yrthilian is a king as in the definition of being a military leader.

You shouldn't forget, he was a researcher first, and in terms of combative ability I am rather sure he's not amongst the first 2..3rd is negotiative, because of the powers given.

And the issue with a mandate of kingship is..if nobody accepts it, or so little that it has no use in the lands, then it's no real reign, even if he has power. And currently it seems to me that there is little public support from golemians for him.

What definition of King are you using?

In England, which is the most classic example of Kings, the King was the military leader, at the back of the army but always fighting. In fact, sometimes entire battles would be settled by a King and his challenger fighting.

So in that sense, Yrthilian did exactly what a King of old times would have done.

If you refer more to the spiritual King (which is what Khalazdad claimed to associate more with, although to be truthful he did lead an army as well), then yes it would have been beneficial to appoint a military leader.

But in my opinion I think Yrthilian did fine as the military leader. He is the leader, and as such controls the most who he attacks and how he attacks them.

But this whole dethroning business... it seems to me in a bitter spirit. People are throwing accusations that Yrthilian overstepped his boundaries. Did he really? Or did everyone just not realize what the title "King" means?

Also, why is Kingship going to a vote? Votes are for appointed leaders of democracy, where everyone's opinion is equal. This should be determined by a fight, because the King is the strongest person in a land, not the one that everybody likes the most. Did everyone like Napoleon? No, he killed lots of people. Then why did he lead? Because if you spoke out, you would end up like the dead people.

True, death means very little in Magic Duel, which is the source of a lot of problems, including this one. If Yrthilian could just kill Grido, rather than exiling him, this whole business would be avoided, and he would be even more of a leader. Unfortunately that is not so.

But in the spirit of the Kingship, and what that means, I think Yrthilian is perfectly in his power. King's powers derive from the Gods, not from his subjects, at least that is the way it was set up in the past. You dare question someone who is appointed by God(s)?

In short, Yrthilian's power should not end because he angered his subjects, and they hold a silly vote. No! It should end when there is a coup, a show of military strength that Yrthilian is NOT the strongest person in the world, and NOT appointed by God.

But I'm not involved in this, so this is only an opinion. I am a member of Golemus now, true, but my pursuits don't change based on Kings.

Awi

[quote name='awiiya' date='30 September 2009 - 02:37 PM' timestamp='1254339422' post='43268']
What definition of King are you using?

In England, which is the most classic example of Kings, the King was the military leader, at the back of the army but always fighting. In fact, sometimes entire battles would be settled by a King and his challenger fighting.

...But this whole dethroning business... it seems to me in a bitter spirit. People are throwing accusations that Yrthilian overstepped his boundaries. Did he really? Or did everyone just not realize what the title "King" means?

...But in the spirit of the Kingship, and what that means, I think Yrthilian is perfectly in his power. King's powers derive from the Gods, not from his subjects, at least that is the way it was set up in the past. You dare question someone who is appointed by God(s)?

In short, Yrthilian's power should not end because he angered his subjects, and they hold a silly vote. No! It should end when there is a coup, a show of military strength that Yrthilian is NOT the strongest person in the world, and NOT appointed by God.

But I'm not involved in this, so this is only an opinion. I am a member of Golemus now, true, but my pursuits don't change based on Kings.[/quote]
I agree with you that a military coup is more appropriate (and realistic, for whatever that means in the context of Fantasy) than a vote in terms of resolving the issue of deposing Yrthilian.

But there is a lot of specious reasoning and what I can only call error in your post. If England provides the "most classic example of Kings", then you of course realize that the doctrine of the divine right of kingship is only about 400 years old in England and has obviously faded in modern times, whereas the tradition of English monarchs is far older. How and why you pass over ancient, Asian concepts such as the Mandate of Heaven, which would admirably support your arguments, though not in a European/Western context, I do not understand.

If Yrthilian is king by the mandate of the gods of MagicDuel, then you, as a member of the Kelle'tha Order, will of course be ready to instruct us who the gods of MagicDuel are... unless you mean Muratus and none other. If you do, then I must answer that Muratus has shown himself to be receptive to popular opinions [u]if[/u] such opinions are well-founded. If you do not, you are merely speculating. We can point to godlike powers who anointed Khalazdad; as an open question to which I honestly do not know the answer, which being or beings anointed Yrthilian?

You use the phrases "what the title 'King' means" and "the spirit of the Kingship" as though there were definitive, unassailable meanings of such things. There are not. The meaning and practice of kingship on Earth has been as diverse as the means of communicating ideas with words. I have reason to think in one culture, the king was a symbolic embodiment of the passage of the year, at the end of which he was ritually killed and his entrails sown into the earth to entreat the gods for an auspicious harvest. Surely neither Yrthilian nor anyone else would want to be such a king. If you mean to talk about the meaning of kingship, I enjoin you to keep to the history of kingship in Magicduel, and not in imaginary places such as "real life".

[b]Edited for grammar/typos[/b]

I am a new comer to this land but i have been many things in many places before now. If you know where my name comes from then you know i am a warrior. The name Hell hounds was bestowed upon a group of warriors in a great war by their enemy, it was a title of respect and fear. I can see both sides of this issue; one person was told to due something by their leader and they refused( for whatever reason). The other side is that they told a subordanite to do something and said person did not. Now in the warrior culture i was part of when you are given an order to do something you obey it, It does not matter what that order is. This is a burden as well as freedom. The burden is that you can not think for yourself, and if you do then it had better be right. The freedom is that you dont have to think, you just do what your told. When you swear feality to a king then that is a big deal, if you are the second in command then that is a massive responsibility, you must help your king and guide them. If the king chooses not to listen then you HAVE to follow what they say, that is why they are king. By choosing not to follow a direct order in a time of war you disrespected your king and chose to aid the enemy. The king leans on his second in command for any number of things and has to know they can count on them so by choosing to not listen and obey you dealt your king a huge blow, both to his pride and to his cause. I think the king was right to exile you Grido.
This is not real world/real life. It is a game and if you are going to play the game then you must play it right.

V:
some thoughts:

1. about all this killing wodin would kill the shades/peace/sentinels, etc...

what you are speculating about is a thing of the past. do you really deny that the pillar of light that was wodin already disappeared? if this has weakened the shades or not is for you to observe. true, the puppet 'wodin' still remains, but are you seriously trying to say that it was his physical component and not the true soul of wodin, which is gone, that created the unbalance that strenghtened the shades?

although my questions are rhetorical, i obviously do not have the answer to them. who of you can say they know 'for sure'?


2. wodin under the controll of the shades?

ok, so the sentinels controll the puppet wodin now, and already learned how to pull some strings (yeah, you get the referrence). so, we agree that indeed the sentinels controll wodin, not the shades. i remember people stressing the point that the sentinels and the shades are seperate entities. and as we have seen from the attack of the summoned army against jester, current leader of the sentinels, they are indeed different to such a degree that it cannot yet be claimed to really understand the other.
so again, my question.

if you disregrad all the above and still assume the shades had controll over wodin, and that this would indeed weaken them to a severe degree, i ask you, why keep the controll? are the shades, them of all, slaves to their possession (and how else should i describe owning a puppet?)

the following applies to both the controll of wodin and of the white:
"you only own what you can take and hold.
you only own that which you can give away.
whatever you cannot give away owns you."

V:
some thoughts:

1. about all this killing wodin would kill the shades/peace/sentinels, etc...

what you are speculating about is a thing of the past. do you really deny that the pillar of light that was wodin already disappeared? if this has weakened the shades or not is for you to observe. true, the puppet 'wodin' still remains, but are you seriously trying to say that it was his physical component and not the true soul of wodin, which is gone, that created the unbalance that strenghtened the shades?

although my questions are rhetorical, i obviously do not have the answer to them. who of you can say they know 'for sure'?


2. wodin under the controll of the shades?

ok, so the sentinels controll the puppet wodin now, and already learned how to pull some strings (yeah, you get the referrence). so, we agree that indeed the sentinels controll wodin, not the shades. i remember people stressing the point that the sentinels and the shades are seperate entities. and as we have seen from the attack of the summoned army against jester, current leader of the sentinels, they are indeed different to such a degree that it cannot yet be claimed to really understand the other.
so again, my question.

if you disregrad all the above and still assume the shades had controll over wodin, and that this would indeed weaken them to a severe degree, i ask you, why keep the controll? are the shades, them of all, slaves to their possession (and how else should i describe owning a puppet?)

the following applies to both the controll of wodin and of the white:
"you only own what you can take and hold.
you only own that which you can give away.
whatever you cannot give away owns you."

having you as hostage is totally worthless, and if peace wanted she would have done the trade somewhere around tuesday evening, or wednessday, she had chance

[quote name='Death Bell' date='26 September 2009 - 10:35 PM' timestamp='1254022504' post='42823']
i dont think its a illusion since he actually has in his inventory, the last side of khal's cube.
[/quote]


The Illusion lays not in the Cube that was in his inventory but in who has control over who. Merely an opinion that has yet to be played out.

why not? it influenced all this events that happened afterwards as well, didnt it?

what happened to wodin was worse.. stealing his creatures like that is worse than whats happening to you. why do u keep forgetting to mention that in your posts.. about how u stole his creatures.

lol same for your peace, ya took two things remember, both ally and wodin, so shush, ups forgot about all those drachs, so 3

we have discussed your idea in detail, you have my support.

[edit: verbosity]

1. "A conglomerate of shades, also known as the Summoned Army, assembled and started to attack all non-necrovion people close to the Stone. Not only that it was defeated repeatedly by Shadowseekers (GG fighter) army, even it had 80k attack and huge defence, but also it was attacked by Necrovion people it was trying to help."

So many things are wrong with that... Summoned Army attacked me, I did not attack Summoned Army. In fact, it attacked me 3 times in a row and drained stat points and over a million value points. Were my value points too high to stop Yrthilian? Otherwise I don't see how that's helping. None of the other Sentinels were attacked by Summoned Army, and none of them attacked it. If it was really trying to help the Necrovions, maybe it should have tried telling them instead of attacking the current leader of the Necrovion Sentinels?

2. "Hoping to get the attention of Necrovion and force them to give the ally back, Yrthilian started to burn sides of Khals cube in the fires of the Stone of Twisted Souls. Very little attempts were made to stop this process, most present Necrovian players looking at it as to a show they had nothing to do with, Yrthilian continued to burn pieces from the cube."

Yrthilian started burning the cube when the person with the GG alliance wasn't even there. If he thinks we can magically give his alliance back without actually having control of it, why didn't he just magically take it himself? Or do Necrovions have some sort of super powers in getting alliances that I'm unaware of?

Also, tackling a guy who's standing next to unbearable heat and messing with a cube that contains the soul of your former mentor, which he had for some reason, seems dangerous. I figured if Khalazdad trusted Yrthilian with it, there must have been a reason. Apparently I was wrong?

[quote name='Yrthilian' date='24 September 2009 - 08:15 PM' timestamp='1253816152' post='42553']
NOTE to Necrovain,

If the GG allaince is not handed back by 22:00 server time.
I will Destroy Khalazdad's soul

You have been warned
[/quote]

V:
yrth, i know and acknowledge the dilemma between raja dharma and kshatriya dharma, but i can asure you that such a threat will only harm your cause. while the act you threatten with is meaningless itself and only bears witness to ignorance of the meaning of concepts like 'soul' or 'immortality', the grief it would cause for his familiy still is reason enough for anyone who esteemed the late greymantle or who is a friend of his family, to raise the blade against you. this includes myself, for multiple reasons.

forgive my straightforwardness, but a king who just lost his army should not force his potential allies to turn on him for such a dishonorable deed.

[quote name='Yrthilian' date='24 September 2009 - 08:15 PM' timestamp='1253816152' post='42553']
NOTE to Necrovain,

If the GG allaince is not handed back by 22:00 server time.
I will Destroy Khalazdad's soul

You have been warned
[/quote]

V:
yrth, i know and acknowledge the dilemma between raja dharma and kshatriya dharma, but i can asure you that such a threat will only harm your cause. while the act you threatten with is meaningless itself and only bears witness to ignorance of the meaning of concepts like 'soul' or 'immortality', the grief it would cause for his familiy still is reason enough for anyone who esteemed the late greymantle or who is a friend of his family, to raise the blade against you. this includes myself, for multiple reasons.

forgive my straightforwardness, but a king who just lost his army should not force his potential allies to turn on him for such a dishonorable deed.

[quote name='Yrthilian' date='24 September 2009 - 08:15 PM' timestamp='1253816152' post='42553']
NOTE to Necrovain,

If the GG allaince is not handed back by 22:00 server time.
I will Destroy Khalazdad's soul

You have been warned
[/quote]

V:
yrth, i know and acknowledge the dilemma between raja dharma and kshatriya dharma, but i can asure you that such a threat will only harm your cause. while the act you threatten with is meaningless itself and only bears witness to ignorance of the meaning of concepts like 'soul' or 'immortality', the grief it would cause for his familiy still is reason enough for anyone who esteemed the late greymantle or who is a friend of his family, to raise the blade against you. this includes myself, for multiple reasons.

forgive my straightforwardness, but a king who just lost his army should not force his potential allies to turn on him for such a dishonorable deed.

[quote name='Yrthilian' date='24 September 2009 - 08:15 PM' timestamp='1253816152' post='42553']
NOTE to Necrovain,

If the GG allaince is not handed back by 22:00 server time.
I will Destroy Khalazdad's soul

You have been warned
[/quote]

V:
yrth, i know and acknowledge the dilemma between raja dharma and kshatriya dharma, but i can asure you that such a threat will only harm your cause. while the act you threatten with is meaningless itself and only bears witness to ignorance of the meaning of concepts like 'soul' or 'immortality', the grief it would cause for his familiy still is reason enough for anyone who esteemed the late greymantle or who is a friend of his family, to raise the blade against you. this includes myself, for multiple reasons.

forgive my straightforwardness, but a king who just lost his army should not force his potential allies to turn on him for such a dishonorable deed.

[quote name='Yrthilian' date='24 September 2009 - 08:15 PM' timestamp='1253816152' post='42553']
NOTE to Necrovain,

If the GG allaince is not handed back by 22:00 server time.
I will Destroy Khalazdad's soul

You have been warned
[/quote]

V:
yrth, i know and acknowledge the dilemma between raja dharma and kshatriya dharma, but i can asure you that such a threat will only harm your cause. while the act you threatten with is meaningless itself and only bears witness to ignorance of the meaning of concepts like 'soul' or 'immortality', the grief it would cause for his familiy still is reason enough for anyone who esteemed the late greymantle or who is a friend of his family, to raise the blade against you. this includes myself, for multiple reasons.

forgive my straightforwardness, but a king who just lost his army should not force his potential allies to turn on him for such a dishonorable deed.

[quote name='Yrthilian' date='24 September 2009 - 08:15 PM' timestamp='1253816152' post='42553']
NOTE to Necrovain,

If the GG allaince is not handed back by 22:00 server time.
I will Destroy Khalazdad's soul

You have been warned
[/quote]

V:
yrth, i know and acknowledge the dilemma between raja dharma and kshatriya dharma, but i can asure you that such a threat will only harm your cause. while the act you threatten with is meaningless itself and only bears witness to ignorance of the meaning of concepts like 'soul' or 'immortality', the grief it would cause for his familiy still is reason enough for anyone who esteemed the late greymantle or who is a friend of his family, to raise the blade against you. this includes myself, for multiple reasons.

forgive my straightforwardness, but a king who just lost his army should not force his potential allies to turn on him for such a dishonorable deed.

NOTE to Necrovain,

If the GG allaince is not handed back by 22:00 server time.
I will Destroy Khalazdad's soul

You have been warned

It is time to clarify a few things.

The previous statement was intentionally worded in a misleading way to draw out those are power hungry or blinded by hate, and it worked exactly as I had desired. The reason that "Instead of being a peaceful college and fighting to prevent war, we now desire war above all else" is because I want to fight these people. Don't misinterpret that, my motives are not unselfish. I mainly want a war, but as long as I can fight anyone it would be best in my mind if those were the ones I fought.

"Our primary task remains the same: to guard Necrovion from all who seek to do it ill, and to learn as much as we can about the mysteries of this place, our homeland."

I personally found it amusing how people seemed to completely skip over that part of my statement. The Sentinels are just that, Sentinels. We guard Necrovion. My enemies have obligingly brought the war to me, the Sentinels don't even need to leave home.

"Do not misunderstand us, our purpose is not to cause pain and misery. We merely desire combat, true combat, not combat without meaning or purpose. Among our ranks there may be people who desire only to inflict suffering, but they are not representative of the views of the Sentinels as a whole."

I had fun with this part, I told you right in that paragraph not to misunderstand what I was saying. In addition, right there I pointed out that I wanted "combat, true combat, not combat without meaning or purpose" and people still insist that I'm going to be declaring war randomly and for no purpose. The reason I claimed not to need a reason was because I knew my enemies would graciously provide me one.

"For now we shall prepare, but soon you will be hearing more of this. Very soon. My reign may be brief, but I am prepared to follow through with my cause even at the cost of my death.

As long as I live, there will be WAR!"

Another bit of irony, I said that you would be hearing more of this soon because I anticipated that my enemies wouldn't wait very long before playing their hand. While I'm still here its very likely these invaders will not cease to invade my homeland, whether it be the land or the shade's death that they desire.

If I were to lose, Yrthilian will add another land to those under his control, and Liberty will get one step closer to attacking the shades. As long as they are in power, I will fight. If Necrovion falls, who will be next?

Wait... by precedent, GG shall declare war on the Seal of Six, and Granos shall step down as leader... shall we start looking for a new leader?