Shameful MD

[Firsanthalas]

So, basically I have to say this because if I don’t I will simply end up exploding in a very undignified manner and letting myself down. Laugh if you want to, I am past caring and in an odd way you will just endorse what I am saying in my view.

MD encourages and fosters harassment, victimisation and bullying. MD is a game for bullies and blow-hards. It seems that MD has rules about using bad language and we have the word Nazis on patrol because we use a word like ‘crap’ or we have the sex patrol, out to make sure that we all remain chaste. Yes folks we need all these things because MD is a place where kids might hang out and they may be exposed to something that poor little children should remain protected from. But, bullying? Nah every kid needs a healthy dose of bullying don’t they? (And by the way, age is no excuse either, whether 9 or 99, nobody should be subjected to it and using the excuse that someone should be old enough to handle it is also just ignorant)

For a long time now I have seen people in MD chased around the place. Spied on, called names or just being attacked over and over again. And what do people in MD do? Well, some people point out that no rules are being broken. That the person has said ability, so no matter how they choose to use it, it’s all good. When people actually dare to complain what happens? They get told they are talking rubbish, to grow up, to deal with it, to get their own back, that they are being babies, or even that you think it is hilarious or better still, there is no problem and that you would do exactly the same. And some of you endorse it by the virtue of saying nothing.

I’ve seen people let themselves down in their reactions to things. Their arguments might reduce down to babbling and bad language and little else. However, I feel that there is an element in MD that just delight in that. It’s easy to laugh at the poor tortured soul having a meltdown. Bless them, they are clearly off their rocker. It seems that many people content themselves with the view that the person was just unstable or weak or immature to begin with. Let’s not waste time considering that perhaps there actually was a valid reason for them to complain in the first place. Or heaven’s forbid that perhaps we have a moral obligation to recognise that not everyone is as hardskinned or hardnosed as you may be? No, what we need to do is keep pushing and pushing someone that is clearly unhappy or distressed about something until they reach the point that they snap. And you know what, we can all have a jolly good laugh about it and then just sit back and wait for the next person to snap. Fun times indeed.

Yeah, I have decided that I will just be a dick to someone today/this week/this year/forever and you know what? It’s totally fine. As long as I don’t break any rules, I can do whatever the hell I like. I mean, I can be a dick in real life, but chances are I would have to deal with my boss, my friends, family at some point or just get a plain old box in the face from someone. But, I don’t need to worry about that in MD. As long as I don’t actually break a rule I can be as big a jerk moron wallyface as I please. Yay for me! Go team jerk moron wallyface. Oh, you don’t like being called a jerk moron wallyface? Tough nuts jerk moron wallyface, I am not calling you a curse word, so neah neah neah. Ohh and by the way, you have a face like an elephant’s backside and your mother fed you with a slingshot you is so ugly.

The other one I love is when a person acts like a jerk, but it’s ok, coz guess what? They are just like that. Yup, if you happen to be a total jerk it’s ok to act like one. But if you aint a jerk and you do something that someone thinks is a bit jerky, then yeah, you need to be told off for that one.
Do you think that I am over-reacting? Maybe I am, I think not though. Come on Firs, harassment, victimisation, bullying? Awfully strong words there pal. I really don’t think that is true at all.

Would it make it easier on you if I called it ‘socially undesirable behaviour’? I mean, cybersex is so obviously socially undesirable behaviour, but hounding people, calling them names, spreading lies about them, slagging them off as foolish or weak, well that is totally different right? I mean that is obviously acceptable behaviour. Chasing someone around and attacking them over and over again, for hours at a time even though they have asked you not to do so, that is ok too. I mean, it’s obvious that you are upsetting them, but hey, you aint breaking any rules right? And yeah, of course people are going to point that out and say it’s hilarious and they are such a stupid weak idiot, they like totally deserve it. Yeah, you go girl/guy!

Shame on you people. Shame on you.

[Jubaris]

You should first declare shame on yourself, considering you were the very one who acted in same manner in which you accuse certain people of.

[Firsanthalas]

Yes Rhaegar you are right. I really shouldn't have gone out of my way to attack you repeatedly, make awful remarks in your PL over and over again, follow you all over MD and Jail you time after time.
There may be bad blood between us, but are you really implying that I actually went out of my way to harass you? You may feel I was unjust or wrong to do what I did to you, that is your right, but do you honestly feel that I have been persecuting you?
I had hoped that perhaps you would get past things, I mean, despite what you may think, I don't go out of my way to insult you or talk about you to people.
And yes, you should completely ignore anything I say based on the fact that you don't like me. It doesn't necessarily make me wrong.

[The Great Wanderer]

The sarcasam in this forum is as thick as mud…

I approve of this new way of approaching the problem. Perhaps if speaking sense to others won’t work, speaking nonsense will. I’m glad you posted this Firs… you pompous buffoon!

[Jubaris]

I don't think that your point about attitude in MD is wrong, I point that you are a hypocrite for not recognizing your own mistakes in the first place.

Regarding you being a hypocrite, I am referring to the bullying part - we had tension between us (while I was in Loreroot) for a year, no? For that period, did you try one time to resolve the issue as a sovereign of the land? Not that I recall.
So as soon as you got to Romania, you orchestrated fancy abilities and burned the Savelites to the ground.

But let us forget about me, let's remind ourselves about Woodcutter incident, and countless other details that occasionally pop that trigger your bully-attitude.
Don't you dare to turn this at me like it is some kind of my personal issue - I don't give a flying duck about your existence, but I won't hide from replying to your posts that I deem wrong.

[Granos]

In MD most people are hypocrites, thats just something thats inevitable over time given how things are, that aside what people have done in the past can't we just get over it and try to move on and make changes towards making it a more suitable place for others rather than have pointless arguments. For once work together and make some changes so maybe just maybe nonsense like this won't be as common place and people wont endure what others have already?

Maybe I'm crazy...

[Windy]

I too, have noticed such things and have been attacked for bringing bullying to light. It has gotten to the point that I don't say anything anymore because I get ganged up on, verbally. This used to be a fun game to play in the beginning. But I have found a way to get around that nonsense and built my own world in MD and I gather those character's close to me that need a true friend.

Pointing fingers at who did what and when leads no where. We can forgive, but forgetting is another issue. We must leave our ego's in the real world and become our character in this realm.

I also believe that pointing fingers at Romanians [or whomever] is counter productive. Where someone comes from is not the issue and should not be a point in an arguement. It is racist, in my opinion.

[Firsanthalas]

Well, my post doesn't say anything about where people come from. And to clarify, this is not something that is aimed at one person or group of people based on location. It is about people in MD in general, attitudes, actions and equally the lack thereof. If you identify, or think you can identify certain people then that just means you are aware of some of the things I am talking about. You can even argue it is obvious who I am talking about or what have you, but it can only be obvious if you are aware of something to begin with. It could be said that perhaps some people have a greater responsiblity than others, but that can be easy to say and might just be passing the buck.

[Deatznce0]

Quoting from the restrictions page...

[quote='Restrictions Page']
Repeated harrassment without reason of other players will not be tolerated. If you have a reason for that, that reason should be discussed with a moderator and if that moderator is unable to solve the issue then put up for voting on the forum. By harrasment we understand constant verbal abuse and moking. Repeated attacks or other ways are not considered punishable harrasment but can be brought up for judging if you think they should.
[/quote]

[quote name='Firsanthalas' timestamp='1319802620' post='94756']
... Would it make it easier on you if I called it ‘socially undesirable behaviour’? I mean, cybersex is so obviously socially undesirable behaviour, but hounding people, calling them names, spreading lies about them, slagging them off as foolish or weak, well that is totally different right? I mean that is obviously acceptable behaviour. Chasing someone around and attacking them over and over again, for hours at a time even though they have asked you not to do so, that is ok too. I mean, it’s obvious that you are upsetting them, but hey, you aint breaking any rules right? ...
[/quote]

Other than constantly attacking someone over and over, everything else listed CAN be declared as some sort of harassment (even being a jerk for that matter) and therefore a rule is broken.
Now, for the sake of it, be BLUNT. If you feel harassed, what's the harm in messaging the person with a nice; "Hey! Quit harassing me" note? Sure, it may not work but then you can at least report it to the higher ups as an actual harassment.

And is MD shameful? No, just quiet and very undisclosed.

[awiiya]

I think that the reason that dst (although her name hasn't come up exactly, it's obvious who we're all talking about) and others have been able to continue to act as they do is that they simply [i]use less words.[/i]

So I would encourage you to imitate them, Firs, and others who feel as he does. Simply wagging a finger at people in general is about as productive as raking through muck.

There are so many actions that you could be taking rather than stating opinions on a forum, no matter how true or accurate those opinions may be. If you believe so strongly in this harassment, why is creating a forum board enough? I'm not one to devalue the power of words, but they have limits, and clearly that limit has been reached.

Two ideas:
Start a petition.
Form a coalition in game that actively works against harassment.

Organizing is a lot more productive than this sort of blase complaining. I've seen enough of it. Please do something.

Awi

Edited October 28, 2011 by awiiya

[Mya Celestia]

[color=#008080][font=lucida sans unicode,lucida grande,sans-serif]Let's pull back from this for a moment and think about it. A big kid beats up a little kid and steals his lunch money every day. Little kid goes to an adult about it and it [u]should[/u] be taken care of. Adults get bullied and harassed they go to the law. Practically every situation does not tolerate bullying. I find it sad that this realm seems to praise it. [/font][/color]

[color=#008080][font=lucida sans unicode,lucida grande,sans-serif]Survival of the fittest? Personally I'm not an animal. I don't kill those weaker than myself to prove I'm strong. Might shouldn't make right. Might should be tempered with wisdom. Not to sound cliche, but with power comes responsibility. [/font][/color]

[color=#008080][font=lucida sans unicode,lucida grande,sans-serif]Yes, MD has a harassment rule. It doesn't appear to be applied often. Just look at the harassment on the forum over some posts. Instead of offering support, people are bashed for whining or whatever. How is that justice? How is that fair play? (I'm speaking in general here) The little kid that loses his lunch money every day who gets no response from an adult are the ones we hear about that end up doing something drastic. Adults do drastic things when bullied, too. It's not about manning up or growing a thicker hide. It's about wanting things balanced. [/font][/color]

[dst]

You all just made me have a good laugh. Thanks

Apparently no matter what goes wrong in MD, I am to be blamed.Yes, I gave Eon the stats and I gave him the SD. I told him to hunt you all and decrease your stats.
I am to be blamed for all the drama when lately I barely had the time to read the forum.
And by whom? Hmm...let's see, maybe a list will help.
-loreroot - yeah old story.I don't like 90% of them and they don't like me. Anything new?Umm...no.
-fenrir -should I even bother explaining?
-sasha lilias - nothing new here as well since I destroyed her ally 2 years ago (ok..not hers but she was leader) and denied her UG citizenship + other things
-pipstickz -he's pipstickz and with that I said it all then flushed and go play outside
-the new cybers that I caught and reported
-innocence cause we had several arguments (btw innocence, I am still waiting for you to sue me)
-redmyth and pothos and insert few noobs here that have been brain washed mostly by loreroot

You talk about harassment? Pff...I barely move away from MDP. I haven't fought in more then 1 year. But yes, I do use words as weapons. And apparently you have no idea how to defend other then whine, rant, scream harassment and go to higher powers complaining that I "violated" you.

Bully? Have you seen my stats? Does any of you remember when I attacked him/her last time?
If you're referring to Eon, well he's your creation . We all are the creation of the others. I would not be so mean if it weren't for loreroot (thank you by the way ). Eon would not have attacked darigan if he wouldn't have started a topic on the forum about that subject. Should I continue with the examples? Hopefully you got the idea. After all, MD players are smarter then average and I still trust most of you when it comes to thinking

I will not change the way I play, the way I say things, what I say or what I think about most of you just to please you.
MD is still fun for me and I intend to stay. Even if just to piss all of you.

I don't know if you noticed lately but I don't give a damn on your whines or rants or your topics about me. Wait. I do give a damn . They are fun. And this time I didn't even need to post in them to flame you. You did a great job on your own. Congratz! You've learned something from me . I am really proud of you.

MD IS survival of the fittest, like it or not. That's what most games are all about (ok...not if you play bookworm...).
MD IS a social game. Most of you seek for social approval. And for that you're willing to lie, cheat, be hypocrites. Well...you succeed. Again, congratz! And of course you do not like the price you need to pay so you start whining on ranting on the forum. And of course you seek someone to blame it on: me, Mur, Eon, lately Greedo. I wonder who'll be next

So, to conclude cause I'm getting bored and I surely have something better to do then teach you stuff you already know but you don't want to admit you know: stop the ranting, stop the whine, stop the drama, stop the cybering (ugh...actually don't stop that I need to catch you first so I can report you and hopefully ban you for a while - I have a reputation to maintain). Go grow some crits. Or sac them if you fear Eon. Or go swear at Mur like smart Curiose did . Or Silverblades if you remember him. Or swear at me if you dare (and I mean in my face not behind my back cause then you'll just prove you're the cowards I always say you are). MD is a game not the Main Bureau of Frustrations Relief.You have other activities for that.

Have fun!

[Firsanthalas]

[quote] Eon would not have attacked darigan if he wouldn't have started a topic on the forum about that subject.[/quote]

uummm.. ok I must be stupid, because I really don't understand that one.
Darigan makes a topic that he is being attacked by Eon, but Eon only attacks Darigan because Darigan made the topic??
Chicken, egg, chicken?
And putting aside what came first. The simple fact that Eon has decided to continually attack Darigan (or anyone else for that matter) for (insert any lame reason you decide to give) is ok?
It is not at all in any way shape or form a form of bullying, intimidation, victimisation or whatever word fits best?
I don't like your face, therefore I am going to attack you as much as I please? Even if you do decide it is fair, when exactly is it enough?
Sacrifice your critters you say. Why should anyone feel they have to do that I ask? Is that not a sure sign that there is something badly wrong?

Anyway, I'd like to say thanks for that post dst. As ever it may me smile to myself.

[Darigan]

I love that dst thinks the world revolves around her. Truthfully I haven't given one thought to you lately dst. I've been a tad busy trying to find ways to evade Eon. Yes I'll say it. I am a coward. Am in real life just as much as I am in MD. I will not sac my creatures just because that would solve the problem because I like my creatures, most of them I've had for a long time and others I've gotten from people. I play MD because of the community and the fun. Believe me when I say there is no fun between having to hide in a corner or going out into the world to risk getting beat up constantly. I spent the entire day yesterday in the East lands trying to make it to the pub there for a drink. When Eon found me again I could have logged out but by that point I just didn't care so I sat there moving scenes slowly and ended up losing 8 points in most stats for because She wouldn't give up. Last night I found a post Eon made about how the more someone complained the more she attacked them. So I decided to close the thread about her in hopes that maybe just maybe she'll finally leave me alone. Is that so much to ask? That I can be left alone by the one person that causes the most pain to my MD life so that I can actually enjoy this game again? If not well I'm still in the east lands, I'm sure you have a locate spell you can figure out where I am or jusrt port me to Goe again. I'm sorry if this comes off as whining but being a coward in real life I just don't have the spirit to fight back anymore.

[dst]

Darigan, crits can be killed if you don't want to sac them. I think Marv knows best. And it involves something you like: friends helping. I simply fail to see why you haven't applied that yet. It's the oldest trick in the book.


As for world revolving around me, sorry to inform you but according to some, it does. Have you counted how many topics were opened and how many complaints were made against me? And if it's not me, it's Eon. Sorry boy, we're the stars, even if the "bad ones"

[Darigan]

Your missing the point Dst, as I figured you would. I shouldn't have to kill my crits I like training on occasion. I wouldn't even mind hit from Eon on occasion either just to make her day but when you sit an entire day hitting one person just because they complained about you, don't you think that's a little obsessive. and when I complain I get called whiny and obsessive. I shouldn't have to kill or sac my creatures just to enjoy this game, I shouldn't have to endure a whole day of being pounded on mercilessly just so someone can feel strong or teach me a lesson about complaining, creatures and fighting are part of the game, and I shouldn't have to give up part of the game just to stop the abuse.

[Firsanthalas]

Look Darigan. It's your fault you got raped. I so told you that mini skirt you were wearing was much too high. I mean I could see your knickers for crying out loud. Hell, I am surprised you didn't get gang raped. You so deserved it so you did.

What? blaming the victim is ok, but somehow it suddenly isn't when we use the R word? Can't have it both ways folks! You can't find one distasteful and not the other.
(I can't edit the previous post)

Edited October 28, 2011 by dst

[Maebius]

*applies hopeful /Sarcasm tag above. *
I wasn't going to post here, with my full thoughts on the topic, but I will add my voice to the whining and say that such terminology, which I'll read as being steeped in sarcasm, hit a bit too close to home for some of my family, and I dislike them personally.
Lets step back, relax, and discuss rationally please.

MD is not a democracy, but is a community. There are untold layers and subtleties to any group of even Three people, so the world we've built here beside Mur is a complex one. None of us are 100% correct, except as it applies to ourselves, alone. I admit there are things I'd prefer to change. Change takes time. Forum posts such as this seem to flare up over the course of 48 hours, to inferno levels, with emotions running high.

As much as it's worth, I agree that Darigan feels slighted and abused.
I agree that Firs was valid in his original post about the sorts of badness that impact others here.
But that's only one side of the mirror.

To address recent specifics: Spells can be used however the owner wants to. Combat is not harassment, as outlined above. (perhaps less friendly, but not illegal). If visiting the Tribunal for a cup of tea, why not temporarily "put your crits to sleep" while you travel? You'll be back in the park soon enough. I did similar recently, and kept them dead for two weeks. When I felt like "training" or was asked for defenses, Vitality was shared to them again.

Eon exists, that won't be changed.
We can.
There is no spoon.

[The Great Wanderer]

Stop.

Everyone, let's remember what the original post for this was about, before it gets out of hand.

Awi, was right. Though I do not appreciate him bringing up dst's name, since I believed this to be a generic review of the harassment in MD... the latter part of his arguement is what we should focus on. Sure we could go back and forth, with each person taking a side and speaking their thoughts on the subject, but that will only end up like many of the other forums. An endless chain of debate, where feelings are hurt, or people are just mearly insulted and annoyed. But If we wish to accomplish something through this, we need to take action as Awi mentioned. I'm not exactly sure how, but that's what we need to do. (I was never too involved in orginizing movements, but I will help where I can.) Like Curiose, who did the right thing in my eyes, took action and left a message behind that was hard to ignore

So anyway, I think it would be best if someone volunteers to take lead of whatever this movement will be, and then lock this forum. Any further information can me PM'd to that person, or in a new forum based on the new group.

[Firsanthalas]

No, lets not lock it. Don't you see that is part of the problem? We start discussing something, ok it gets heated, we close the topic and move on and we are back to the same thing again only with different names being thrown around, or worse still, the same names, but just a different case.
And I don't believe in a poxy poll. This is something that will not get solved because of a poll. It is an issue that needs to be addressed and the only way that can happen is if people open their eyes to it.
Closing your eyes, or sticking your fingers in your ears will not make it go away (I mean generally speaking, not you Wanderer).

[xrieg]

[quote name='dst' timestamp='1319823853' post='94782']
MD IS survival of the fittest, like it or not. That's what most games are all about (ok...not if you play bookworm...).
[/quote]
Pretty much everything everywhere can be described as survival of the fittest - violent gang, school, knitting circle - only rules set to adjust to varies.
MD is in constant agony - with very low playing population and permanent whining that contributions are barely enough to cover server bills. One can brave long explanations that there are not enough ads, that ppl prefer easy stuff etc etc...you can even go further in self-satisfaction saying that MD is for the best the smartest and apparently there are less and less of them around. whatever.
MD community is small and we should respect each other. In larger games ppl find their peers and just do not come in contact with ppl they do not have fun with often. Same as in real life. In MD we keep meeting all types of ppl and some meetings are unavoidable.
It's a pity pretty a lot of us do not appreciate diversity in MD. The more variaty, the more probable new players will join MD and find their niche - and some of them may prove to be valuable MD assets and ppl _you_ may like. Instead we have already half empty MDP, and when old enemies meet they often do not miss a chance to let all present know wheir animosity is doing well, thank you. Read forum and imagine you were outsider. Would you find MD community creative, unique, having fun? Or maybe - whining, arguing, complaining lot?
Some behaviour will not change. I do not presume to understand all - some ppl will make sure they and their clones will be the only players left active. Some may fight all until they will be the strongest fighter in a fighter population of one... I believe, though, that if we want MD community to grow, we should learn to tolerate each other and bite our tongues more often.
I believe we all would like it to have MD with paying and non-paying players, with paying players doing that for minor extra features helping in gameplay and just to show their appreciation for the fun they have. Currently in many discussion consessions are made and justified that 'MD needs money and needs it bad'. MD need more players. If we, current players, cannot respect each other and attract new players, such concessions will always be a must - and instead of paying and non-paying players we will have a few sponsor players the game will rely on, for good and bad.
Sorry for pathos.... there are few of us and it's up to us to make the game attractive - or community forum few will be able to unload their frustrations and other frustrated ppl wait their turn.

[Mya Celestia]

[color=#008080][font=lucida sans unicode,lucida grande,sans-serif]When does combat become abusive? Are we saying that you can beat a person the entire time they are in game practically every time you can for days on end making you the only target is not abusive? Verbal attacks are abusive, but not other attacks because they are "combat"? [/font][/color]

[color=#008080][font=lucida sans unicode,lucida grande,sans-serif]We can't use certain words because they are offensive some. We can't do certain actions because they are offensive to some. We [u]can[/u] beat the tar out of someone because it actually is a silent abuse. I don't see that as fair. Go ahead and tell me MD isn't fair. I already know that, but when did MD decide it wanted to allow cruelty as well?[/font][/color]

[dst]

When Eon did not have SD you all still complained because you were receiving loses. And before Eon it was Alyon and Crazy Mike and eigger.
The complaint reached a new level. You don't know what you have until you miss it. Remember bonuses for angiens? Or SD when you get too many loses? BOTH cases ended in huge forum whines. And we learned to live with them. It's a matter of...adaptation.

[Darigan]

actually the forum whine for stat loss with too many losses ended in a wish that would reset one's balance. Mike has been pretty much jailed for life for abusing the system, I rarely see eigger anymore and Alyon spends his days working toward LHO or light training. Angiens were changed and have been changed more times then I can count. We didn't adapt. the things or people changed themselves or just left. Your point is mute dst the system is flawed and when abuses happen you should not blame the one complaining or expect them to change how they do things just to please or surpress their abuser. You are a perfect example of what is wrong with this community you insist on telling people to adapt to things they do not like and to stop whining, when in fact when enough people don't like something things change, it may take a long while. (look how long verbal and sexual abuse was able to go on because people were either scared to stand up or were turned away when they did.) You just don't care about people and would rather expect us all to adapt and stop whining. I'm sorry but that is not how a thriving and supportive soicety works. We adapt to changes when we need to but when those changes cause a problem to big too overcome for some people those changes should either be reversed or changed again.

[Sephirah Caelum]

[size=4][b]Answering the hot topic of the weekend and maybe of the week, I would like to share my words and also answering everything I read since the end of the past year:[/b][/size]

[b]I thanks Curry about the scientific information provided on the day of Blind Justice, not the information per se but with what she gave me I was albe to inform better about this new issue on social life: cyber bullying. I also thanks to Awiiya on his post into this topic,[/b]

[b][quote name='awiiya' timestamp='1319819876' post='94778'][/b]
[b]Form a coalition in game that actively works against harassment.[/b]

[b]Organizing is a lot more productive than this sort of blase complaining. I've seen enough of it. Please do something.[/b]

[b]Awi[/b]

[b][/quote][/b]

[b]That been said and without futher explanations, I'm inviting myself of said coalition if one is already being formed. And if not I'm building one, and for that one I wish to receive the help of a real life teacher and/or social service professional and/or mental health professional. I would also like to have the help of anyone wishing to apply, (will have a maximum of participants, but I don't know how many for now)[/b]

[b]Regards[/b]
[b]MVBL[/b]


[b]Edit: [url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/10850-bullying-coalition/page__pid__94804#entry94804"]Made a topic for that.[/url][/b]

Edited October 28, 2011 by Sephirah Caelum