Taking Shared Tools

[xrieg]

[color=#0000ff]Split from [url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/10924-eons-help/"]http://magicduel.inv...0924-eons-help/[/url][/color]
[color=#0000ff]-Burns[/color]

I hope Mighty Pirate didn't get jailed for heat jars incident. It would be pathetic to punish somebody who stirred the community into some action hiding jars (BTW I got one 18k quite a long time after tools reset, PM me if you need it) and letting resources deptetion (herbs depletion in most low lands makes the 'most accesible and public' Herbs Basket useless for most game population) go unattended.
After all, you could pick up heat jar if you went there early enough, you could ask ppl to loan it (you could get it for free, not only Mighty Pirate monopoly after all) - tools of the given type were still in circulation. On the other hand resources that are gone... are just gone - hence herbs baskets are available even several hours after reset.
To summarize... I do not think items hoarding should be a jailable offense. It's minor tools abuse comparing with depletion.
... unless depletion is also consider jailable offense only nobody reported it as such?

Edited November 13, 2011 by Burns
split note added

[Guillak]

Something still does not sound right to me, and I'm trying to understand. Please forgive me if it's irrelevant.

Nadrolski "publicly" asked all MB citizens (in MB private forum) to help gathering water tools in order to prevent water depletion. Paracelsus just happened to be online when needed, but it could have been any of us, and I would have been glad to help, not even realizing it was against the rules.

What I want to point here is that all MB citizens knew what Nadrolski and Paracelsus were doing, but none of us denounced them to authorities. So, aren't we all accomplices, for not telling? Also, what's the point in giving a bounty for "discovering" this, while it was known by many people? There was not even a need to track anything in the logs (except for gathering the "evidence"), all you had to do was to ask them.

Edited November 13, 2011 by Burns
clicked the wrong post to add the split note, undone

[Jubaris]

I figured Nadrolski and Paracelsus were using alts to store the items, which was an abuse, but then Nadrolski's reaction made me believe it wasn't so.

So supposedly, Nadrolski and Paracelsus were punished because they gathered Marind Bell's resource tools, with jail, without any public warning that such behavior is not wanted?
If the access to the items is public, then the public can do whatever they want with them, without breaking any already established rules, yet not in this case?

If there was any announcement that asked MD players not to collect more of the tools, then I missed it.

[Burns]

[quote]Ann. 1997 - [2011-08-23 04:43:50 - Stage 11]
Shared items will regroup at their original location on every Tuesday, 04:15 on odd dates and 16:15 on even dates of the month (servertime). Try to avoid loading cauldron type items or jars close before that time as they will be taken away automatically even if they are loaded or in use. [b]Do not hoard shared tool[/b] and do not use alts to store multiple tools of dame type. [b]These items are meant to be used by as many people as possible so if you don't plan on using them let them there for others to try.[/b] You shouldn't sell the items but you can sell services related to them such as heat jar loading or whatever else.

UPDATE: now runs on odd and even dates so it covers more timezones.[/quote]

Quite obviously you did miss it.
People weren't jailed for alt abuse, but for shared tool abuses. You can hold tools away from public without going through alts, but as you see, it gets you punished just as well.

Edited November 13, 2011 by Burns

[Pipstickz]

None of the people jailed (as far as I know) were jailed for using alts. Mighty Pirate used the aramor, and Nadrolski used Paracelsus. The problem is that they put all the tools in one place, which is now impossible due to the new restrictions Mur has added [b]due to this abuse[/b]. As the announcement says:
[quote]You should not use alts to store multiple shared items [u]and you should not hoard them, these items are meant to be used by many people not hoarded by a few.[/u][/quote]

[Fyrd Argentus]

Also, based on announcements, the punishment was more for doing what Mur specifically requested not happen (monopolizing tools) prior to him putting in place safeguards he had planned -- than it was for the actual activity. Now that those safeguards are in place, the rules seem to be, do whatever the game interface allows, which ought to be the norm.

p.s. -- I understood that what Nad was originally doing was making tools available for MB citizens to use (they are MB-only in function) even though said individuals were not available at the reset. This prevented non-users from grabbing the tools and leaving MB with none. This would definitly be in the spirit of getting the tools into circulation for use. What Nad stands accused of now (was there a trial?) is a bit different from what I thought publicly was going on.

[Maebius]

In the case of Nadrolski and the water tools, and the interest of full disclosure....
I'll admit I also helped grab buckets and sent the ITCs to the Dowsers, as well as a few MB citizens who requested them, so that they would be shared among those who would/could use them.
I don't necessarily want jail time for it myself, but would like to more fully understand the rule and my involvement in any activity that may be considered illegal.
With the new limitations in place, it would be impossible to do this now, but at the time, I also felt it was still "sharing" and not hoarding the water-collecting tools.

[Udgard]

Tbh, the announcement is "[b]These items are meant to be used by as many people as possibl[/b][b]e", [/b]and as long as the dowsers were making the tools available to whoever asked who actually can use it (MB Citizens), I don't see the abuse there. If non-citizens can't use them in the first place, then keeping it away from them is not really breaking the rule of "making it available to be used by as many people as possible". Just my 2 cents.

[Shadowseeker]

The real abuse however was when nadrolski used 10+ buckets to get water.

Then it is not only hoarding, but also abuse of shared tools.

And if it really comes down to keep them distributed to people- it's still hoarding, because non MB people may wish to take them (although they cannot use them).

[Seigheart]

So, if you can't use a Shared Item, why do you need to have one? It's supposed to be USED right? Not just sitting in someone's inventory for a week.

[Pipstickz]

Grabbing a shared item to keep it away from somebody is still using it. For example, if Eon were to take a needle so that nobody could use it against him.

[nadrolski]

i made an option to my fellow MB citizens that if they can not use water tools [size=2](e.g. no time to dowse for their own Water)[/size], i asked them to grab few for me and on behalf of them, i dowse water resources and distribute to any MB citizen available.

[b]"These items are meant to be used by as many people as possible so if you don't plan on using them let them there for others to try."[/b]

i had several tools in my inventory, but i did not collect such tools and log out til the next day and repeat. i hold responsibilities for most of the Marind Bell citizens's water stocks in their respective inventories, i sell them to the public, even with cheaper competitors

Shadowseeker is right, i used to have 10+ buckets, and i gather water mostly inside their land (GG). i heard no complaints from any GG citizens about my dowsing activity inside the land premises, and when i see others gathering for water, especially GG's own citizens, i always give way for them. but who came inside that land and brought his bullying attitude? everybody's [b]bounty hero[/b]

tools get recalled after a week. most of the [size=2]water[/size] sources in [size=2]easy[/size] accessible main lands are depleted

i have a common sense of using my collected tools in other [size=2]remote[/size] lands, and never thought of just sitting inside the sanctuary and show off with those numerous tools

my bad. i was too hard-working to do others's responsibilities of dowsing for their own supply of water resource, too hard-working to be the only Water Dowsers' member in action

[dragonrider7]

[quote name='nadrolski' timestamp='1321318890' post='95843']
i made an option to my fellow MB citizens that if they can not use water tools [size=2](e.g. no time to dowse for their own Water)[/size], i asked them to grab few for me and on behalf of them, i dowse water resources and distribute to any MB citizen available.

[b]"These items are meant to be used by as many people as possible so if you don't plan on using them let them there for others to try."[/b]

i had several tools in my inventory, but i did not collect such tools and log out til the next day and repeat. i hold responsibilities for most of the Marind Bell citizens's water stocks in their respective inventories, i sell them to the public, even with cheaper competitors

Shadowseeker is right, i used to have 10+ buckets, and i gather water mostly inside their land (GG). i heard no complaints from any GG citizens about my dowsing activity inside the land premises, and when i see others gathering for water, especially GG's own citizens, i always give way for them. but who came inside that land and brought his bullying attitude? everybody's [b]bounty hero[/b]

tools get recalled after a week. most of the [size=2]water[/size] sources in [size=2]easy[/size] accessible main lands are depleted

i have a common sense of using my collected tools in other [size=2]remote[/size] lands, and never thought of just sitting inside the sanctuary and show off with those numerous tools

my bad. i was too hard-working to do others's responsibilities of dowsing for their own supply of water resource, too hard-working to be the only Water Dowsers' member in action
[/quote]

I support Nad in this cause, due to my work pressure I am unable to spend much time in the game and so I had to help Nad by giving him my tools, so that he can use the tools to gather water and [b]we always kept a counter of water resources to prevent it from depletion[/b] but someone else not doing that.

-rider

[Pipstickz]

So, what do you want? To be released from jail because you think you were acting in accordance with the law, or to have Eon there with you because you think what he does is worse?

[nadrolski]

i am not asking to be released right away, sir Pipstickz. i patiently await for my sentence to end, as i deserve the consequence given to me

what i posted above is my explanation, my side. i never ever acted as the patriotic good guy, was just doing the job (dowser) given to me by [size=2]ex[/size]QHP on my way, the way i thought was good

[b]i started moving on[/b]

never i thought of Eon doing the worse. seriously, we should be thankful because he helps a lot in making MagicDuel running

[Blood Prince]

I support Nad in his statement.According to me he is the only dowser who did his work properly. Most of the other dowsers including the citizens of MB has not used the exclusive tools which was provided for them. So punishing Nad due to the zest of doing the job he loves to do in MD is absolutely ridiculous according to my humble opinion. I always believe its good to use all the tools actively rather than flashing it in your inventory without doing anything with it.

If one goes by this principle all people who has tools without using them is culpable of the same offense. This also includes people who takes the tools and keep them away due to it being used against them. In Mur's eye as per me the former looks an abuse and the latter looks a strategic movement I guess.

It seems Eon is becoming a problem. I'm not talking about skill damage (even-though its a part of it) but rather other bitchy things Eon has started doing. He has too much power to be contained by most of the MP5's kings/queen's are helpless because any action against him would obviously reverted by Mur. May be because Eon brings a lot of cash to the game which it needs. So it's time to fix Eon if the community think it is a problem.

Let me conclude with the following lines

"There was a thing called DOJO. Everybody supported it at the start then it became too power hungry and enforcing. Tested their power of spells a step too far and at the end of it DOJO was not existent."

It's high time we start doing something about this....

[Muratus del Mur]

again, last think i have to say about this, and i said it in different ways already:

i asked you all not to do anything fishy about the tools, i have no time to check what you do , or to investigate your actions and your reasons. When i say i have no time to do police on this subject it obviously also means i won't check what you announce you will do and prevent what you will do just so you won't get in trouble. It simply means i am very busy and that at some point i will take a quick look over the logs, or someone will do that for me, and i will pick the "winners" for the penalty.

I spiecifically said this penalty is not based on a careful judgement of each case but on a raw statistic/logs. Its how it will happen each time i say i wont do police work but i will punish whatever comes out in the logs, be it with reason or without. One of the things i said not to be done was to hoard tools. simple as that.

My intention about the tools is that they FORCE you to do teamwork. One person grabbing more means other people won't be able to have a choice if they want to deplete the resources or not. It also means a potential abuse. Nad maybe had good intentions, as i said i didnt judge that, but in a stage where these tools are still new to many, it is far more important that they get 'tested' and used by as many people as possible.

Part of USING A TOOL is that you find how to grab one yourself and actually do it, not that you are pushed to use one or ask on the moodpanel you want one..



[size=2]offtopic remarks about eon:[/size]
[size=2]seems eon paranoia hunts this topic too. it makes me sick. eon plays by the rules and amuses himself on your fear. I have to say i enjoy to see that. This is ofc a very personal opinion and i can't take any official stand regarding it. I rarely look at players supporter status (its usualy when i am about to ip ban them). I NEVER get influenced by how much a player pays and those of you that dared to email me with lines like "i am a paying member", know very well my style of telling them to fuck off politely, or less politely. Eon is not under my protection more than his role as contest organizer allows. md server is not running because of eons money, how you so rudely put it, but because of the payments of all of you that pay anything. In md there are people that never paid a $ but got things others never managed to get after spending lots, and players that spent lots but don't become gossip subject because they don't cause 'mess' like eon. You have a problem with eon, face it, dont blame me on a potential 'protection' i might be ofering him.[/size]

[Burns]

Split, further discussion about teamwork and Eon to be found here:
http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/10966-teamwork-controversy-with-a-little-eon-around-the-corners

Please try to stay on topic now.

[xrieg]

[quote name='Shadowseeker' timestamp='1321270813' post='95793']
The real abuse however was when nadrolski used 10+ buckets to get water.

Then it is not only hoarding, but also abuse of shared tools.

And if it really comes down to keep them distributed to people- it's still hoarding, because non MB people may wish to take them (although they cannot use them).
[/quote]

[quote][color=#CCCCCC]Ann. 2071 - [2011-11-10 04:52:36 - Stage 11][/color]
[b]Trading shared items interface restrictions[/b]
Shared items can no longer be transfered if the target player already holds two or more other shared items. In some situations you might require having multiple shared items , such as the cauldrons for example. Remember the cauldrons are designed for collaborative play and not single-player activity. There is still a way to hold multiple items, so you can enjoy collecting more types of resources for example. All you need to do is go and grab them yourself! Its only the transfer that is restricted by the interface not also the grabbing of items directly from the item dispatcher.

[color=#CCCCCC]Ann. 2070 - [2011-11-10 04:26:46 - Stage 11][/color]
Some time ago I issued a warning not to abuse shared tools till proper restrictions and rules will be creaqted for them, because I don't have time to work both on the restrictions, do police work with you and also work on their features. I counted on your common sense to determine what might be abuse and what not with these items, this is not about breaking a specific written rule, so there can't be a trial about it. This is about some failing to understand what "shared tools" might mean and not respecting my public request to avoid anything that MIGHT be considered abuse till I have time to work on the 'security' or 'rules' part of this major feature. Guilds that got affected by the release of shared tools that they were previously controlling were publicly announced that this is a temporary situation, as more resource guild related features are pending. There is no excuse for any of you to limit availability or hoard shared tool, considering the named warnings. People that got jailed for this will be announced publicly soon. Starting now, i lift this 'common sense' -no abuse- request, you are free to go wild. Rules but mostly interface restrictions will be created on the way based on whatever ways you will find to turn shared tools from their intended purpose.
[/quote]

Should it be considered legal now to take more than one tool of a given type (i.e. 2 herbs backets, 2 reality coagulators) and use it to speed up harvesting? I would consider it abuse... but I have been in the wrong before.
Please clarify the ruling

Edited December 27, 2011 by xrieg

[Shadowseeker]

From what I gathered taking buckets by yourself is fine (I was able to take 2 coagulators by myself, and that is something I will do again because the system allows me to). Getting the buckets if it is a shared tool is not fine [I mean being given or ITC], a nonshared tool however does not recall and as such should not be under the same restrictions.

Possibly someone would be allowed to get as many shared tools as he can hold now, and I think even that might be allowed- but personally I will refuse to do so.