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Land Cleanser effect


nadrolski
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Not really a new idea since the item already exists, but a proposal for a "balanced" legislator item effect.

 

Unless the victim is on idle mode, I strongly believe there is no point of wasting effort to push a non-idling victim one scene if he/she can easily move back to his/her previous location with a very much less effort compared. The effect is displayed at the trigger box with a long duration, but the fact is.. push effect is done after 1 to few seconds.

 

Current effect of a "won + lose" fight cause is the same as working for two (2) won causes.

 

I propose the "won + lose" cause combination should have both the push + 'movelock' effect (still 60 secs, but only per lost cause) to make the effort worth fighting for, and won't look like.. non-sense.

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I personally think that adding a movelock effect to a land cleanser would be too powerful, perhaps if enough people from a land used cleansers on a single target within a few minutes of eachother (say five) the target would be teleported to the front entrance to the land they were 'cleansed' from and not able to reenter the land for say 30 minutes (or however long the effect stays in the triggerbox).

This way a single person with a cleanser can't run around harassing noncitizens but a small group of people must all work together to 'cleanse' their land.

 

edit: example scenario: p1-p5 are citizens of a land and want p6 gone.

p1 uses cleanser on p6: effect appears in triggerbox for 5 minutes

p2 uses cleanser on p6: effect appears in triggerbox for 5 minutes

p3 uses cleanser on p6: effect appears in triggerbox for 5 minutes

p4 uses cleanser on p6: effect appears in triggerbox for 5 minutes

p5 uses cleanser on p6: effect appears in triggerbox for 5 minutes

there are five cleanser effects on p6 from the same land in the triggerbox, this causes the five to dissapear and a new one to appear, as a result of the new effect appearing the following happens

p6 is teleported to the front gates of the land he/she was cleansed from and cannot enter the land until the cleansed effect exits the triggerbox

 

(I mention front gates becuase GG has labyrinth, LR and MB can be entered from MDA, and NC probably has one I don't know about)

Edited by Rophs
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@nad my idea is that a single person running around with a land cleanser would do nothing much in the same way a single person could not kick you out of a grocery store or someplace else, but if a person is running around a store bent on causing chaos with no regard for someone else (eg grabbing boxes of cereal off the shelves and putting them in a single cart in order to 'deplete' the cereal in that store) multiple people would need to group up and work together  to push the person causing chaos out, and after such an incident the person would likely not be allowed back into the store immediately after.

 

What you seem to be saying is "I want to bump someone with a cleanser. and then they will be movelocked so that I can bump them with the cleanser again". If that is not what you are saying then please reword your intentions for the cleanser.

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I like that nadrolski is seeking an in-game solution to his problems rather than just calling people bullies, which doesn't help anything but does piss off/alienate people.

 

Land cleansers were originally made in the era of torch competitions, during which every movement on enemy land while holding a torch would sap all a player's AP, functionally movelocking them until the regen. Adding a movelock effect to the land cleanser now would bring it more into line with its earlier intended effect.

 

Rophs, to go along with your zany metaphor—if the person attempting to bump back the crazed shopper can beat them in a fight, why shouldn't the runner-amok get knocked out?

 

Teamwork is a nice idea, but shouldn't be necessary—one willful citizen should be able to make an effective stand. How about increasing the duration of the movelock the more citizens join the fight?

 

AM I THINKING ONLY ABOUT FOR MY OWN GOOD IF I AM PUSHING SOMETHING THAT INVOLVES MORE-THAN-ONE-PERSON EFFORT?

You're thinking about your own good, certainly, but not only.

 

And there's nothing particularly wrong about advocating for something that will benefit yourself and your friends (but other players, too) at cost to your 'enemies'. Everyone's free to disagree for whatever reasons they choose.

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Hmm, now that you mentioned about this items ... where can I find them in LotE  or Underground ?

Being fair means that all should have access to such items.

Also being fair would mean to have a counter to the items.

 

But from what I understand what you propose is not fair and not even balanced.

 

I will not speak for myself as currently I cannot use such items nor do I see myself using them. It wouldn't be fair to kick ppl out of LotE.

 

Anyway: I don't see those items enhanced as they are powerful enough as they are (not taking into consideration that you used them on a player that was idle so ... a pointless fight).

 

I would like your answer on this situation :

MB ppl wanting to enter GG / Necro (remember the AP requirement) and 5 "locals" simply keeping them at bay.

Knowing Necro's organization, I'd say that the minute these items would be implemented their land could be closed for good.

 

Also knowing the number of LR ppl ... and their leaders ... I'd say that LR would be closed for many. And MB is not far behind.

 

 

So, what is your purpose Nadrolsky ? What do you hide ? It is obvious that this is personal reason.

Do you really want lands closed even more ?

 

@Rophs: there is no need to make those items too powerful, the movelock effect can be attained by using the spell.

 

@Nad: I know that you don't like me, but you should consider learning something from what I say:

 - your problems are just problems if seen from a single perspective. Change your point of view and you might see the "solution".

 - you don't like ppl in your land, why don't you send them away ? there are specialized spells for that.

 - as you said, having an active person, why don't you use movelock ?

 - if you are the only person using the item ... what effect you expect ? use help from your colanders... it would have the greatest effect (even against an idle account)

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Adding a short movelock effect to the land cleansers would greatly increase their power and No one brings up an important point of how to avoid being cleansed via counterplay, seeing how cleansers are very easily accessible so should be the counter tool for it (but not too common as to make cleansers useless). Perhaps every land (including UG and LotE, possibly MDA and Labby) should have a location where they can get cleansers and exactly as many anticelaners but make anticleansers have fewer uses that each make you immune to cleansing for shorter amounts of time (say give it 6 uses lasing 20 minutes each for 2 hours total of anticleansing).

 

Perhaps when someone is cleansed they get more time movelocked based on this forumula

movelock time in seconds = current time until free in seconds + (  60 + ( ( ( people movelocking you - 1 ) / 10 ) * 60 ) )

 

Basically, let's say I have 0 people cleansing me from MB, then nads cleanses me. I would get bumped and movelocked for 60 seconds, then maybe maebcleanses me, i'd get bumped and 66 seconds added to my timer, then maybe chew cleanses me, thus bumping and adding 72 seconds onto my timer, this way teamwork is more vauble

 

if a mod wants to make the stacked parentheses look 'nicer' feel free to but I made them like that because it is easier for me to read, perhaps it will not be that way for others

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No one, do you really think this is a gimmick of mine and purely involves personal matter?

 

I also speak on behalf of some of my fellow Marind Bell citizens who expressed their feelings thru private messages: feelings of disappointment, frustrations after they saw what INTRUDERS did inside our land. So where's the personal reason there?

 

And as officially an appointed leader of Marind Bell's resource guild, it is my job to take actions against INTRUDERS. And again, where's the personal reason there?

 

And of course, as citizens, we are to protect our land against INTRUDERS. We go for the legislator items to be practical, we don't need to whine and ask for more powerful items, are/did we request for one? But what I am pointing out, again, AFTER DOING ACTUAL TESTING AND USAGES OF THE LAND CLEANSERS (AS WELL AS THE FIERCE NEEDLE OF FEEBLENESS), is that certain cause combinations aren't worth the effort if the effect can easily and instantly be countered, either by moving back to the previous scene or walking/running away.

 

And maybe you did not read and understood the announcement carefully and clearly (just like how you complain on stuffs I write about safe levels), Land Cleansers are only obtainable at capitols.

 

[Spoiler]

Land Cleanser - Legislator items (weaponry!)
A few land cleanser items were dispatched to each capitol (remember NC capitol is not function because land is closed). These items are the first generation of land weapons, not to be confused with _the_ land weapon of each land. They can push intruders outside the land, along heat veins (fixed pathways towards the exit). They use fight causes to function. Remember, all you need to do is to fight for the cause code described by the item ("landguard" in this case) and same as with the needles, you do not require to hold the item or to win the fight, your cause fight will count somehow anyway. Lost causes will movelock in place the intruder. Currently all items in all capitals work regardless of citizenship or land. Later they will be better limited to work only in favor of the land they should defend, for now, have fun with them as they are.
Note: at the time this announcement is posted, GG and UG heat veins settings are not yet uploaded so the items wont work in those lands till all heat veins are set.

[/Spoiler]

 

You said: "Being fair means that all should have access to such items."

 

From announcement above: "Currently all items in all capitals work regardless of citizenship or land."

 

You are funny, No one. If you can acquire stuffs from other person/s, like those new "Large Water Bucket" you are currently possessing, then why don't you ask for a Land Cleanser, too?

 

You said: "Also being fair would mean to have a counter to the items."

Re-read the red-colored text.

 

You said: "So, what is your purpose Nadrolsky ? What do you hide ? It is obvious that this is personal reason.

Do you really want lands closed even more ?"

 

It is not actually a personal purpose, but a group purpose involving some of my fellow MB citizens.

 

What I hide? Our (MB citizens) frustrations and disappointment from INTRUDERS, as well as disappointment with the Land Cleanser effects, but now our feelings aren't hidden anymore since I already voiced them out. Would you call it PERSONAL if we care about our land?

 

You said: "- you don't like ppl in your land, why don't you send them away ? there are specialized spells for that."

We aren't that lucky and special like you and dst who use 'sendtosomewhere' spells to throw people out of a scene. Again, we rely on Land Cleansers.

 

"- as you said, having an active person, why don't you use movelock ?"

'movelock' spell is not the issue, it is the Land Cleanser effect. are you with me?

 

"- if you are the only person using the item ... what effect you expect ? use help from your colanders... it would have the greatest effect (even against an idle account)"

So you really think I fight for a cause alone? And you think I haven't tried that item before? Ha!

 

We did that latest "fight cause" against you so at least you will know that the effect I am speaking of is useless. On the other hand, I am already expecting a "What effect are you talking about?" and such answers. I did saw only your traces in the scene even the effect is floating in the trigger box.

 

- - -

 

One more thing, with a little help of using common sense, legislator items are used against INTRUDERS. why against assuming we want to close our land? You are really funny, especially when you and dst assume things.

 

and with common sense again, and a fact, a legislator item doesn't care if it is used against an INTRUDER or an innocent victim. the item is created to serve for purposes after doing effort, pushing one person "out" one scene, or cursing 'movelock' effect, regardless of the status of the victim (dead and jail breakers are exempted).

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Rophs, you said: "seeing how cleansers are very easily accessible so should be the counter tool for it (but not too common as to make cleansers useless)."

 

Land Cleansers are very easily accessible, yes, correct; but the truth is, they aren't used regularly like the normal shared items because they require at least 2 persons. It is also not that easy to find one company to fight for a cause. With the # of online players, are we sure they are up for fighting causes? For me, that is not the real issue, I am patient enough to look for a company. The real issue is, like what I am pointing all the time, IS THE PUSH EFFECT WORTH THE GROUP EFFORT?

 

NO.

 

"Adding a short movelock effect to the land cleansers would greatly increase their power and No one brings up an important point of how to avoid being cleansed via counterplay"

 

How can those combo-effects be powerful if the duration is short?

 

Let me ask you something, define POWER; or better, answer this:

 

Which is more powerful ---

 

GROUP EFFORT (more than one person) to curse a "push out" + 1 min 'movelock' (per cause) against ONE victim

 

-OR-

 

ONE INTRUDER instantly/effortlessly moves back to the scene (as well as to other locations) and continues to do damages to the land after a group effort effect is done (i.e., do you need a fight cause to deplete resources)?

 

are you saying group effort is easier to achieve than single effort? LOL

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I'll have to jump in here and somewhat support the original idea, for mainly the reasons Zyrxae mentioned.

 

I've experimented with the Land Cleaner items, and they do take two people working together for a fairly easy "push out of scene" effect, along the Heat Veins as described in the announcement (or a temporary lock IN the scene if the fight cause fails, I think?).   The issuse becomes that outside of Torch Competitions, the "victim" can usually just click back on the arror to re-enter the scene folks want to clear, after seconds.   Then, of course, our combat system means they stick around in that scene for a number of minutes (unless there are more people ready to pass the Tool to, and fight them back out).

 

Since the tools work anywhere, in any Land (yes, even the East, and Underground, since I know the Heat Veins are mapped there) and can be picked up in any capital without Land Loyalty (thus, "public")  Anybody is free to use them against anybody.

 

 

The reasons you may perceive nadrolski wanting this done are perhaps biased, but hte fact remains there are a few discussions on forums, and in ancient chats regarding "fixing" the tools for purely logistical reasons.  They work great as they are created, but have flaws in terms of what I beleive the Intended Uses are/were.   They aren't really very powerful as they currently stand.   

 

The counters to them are fairly simple.   Set a defense that allows you to not lose the battles against you,  Pickles/Votes/[shop?]/FriendCombat  for quick AP to return to the scene, and probably others I can't think of right now. 

 

Discounting Resources entirely, the Cleaners are more dustmap than Power-washer, currently.  :P  

I support the discussion to see how to improve them and re-match current MD mechanics.  

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Having it drain your ap every time you move would be very well balanced and do the job they were meant to do.

edit: maybe have it drain 1/4 of your ap ever time you move per cause that way one or two people can't run around bullying people

 

(not related to topic: please go lower visc at MDA gates so that I don't have to beg for cake and pickles to enter)

Edited by Rophs
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@Nad: I am sorry, my answer was of course partly biased by your constant attitude.

And I didn't knew all that stuff about the land cleansers.

 

And NO, I don't want to use any of those items.

____________________________________________________

The question is : what do you expect from such item ? In MB's case ... it would be almost pointless. Really. Sorry.

Also reducing 1/4 of AP is kind of much but the idea is interesting.

 

Before continuing, we all have to take into consideration that MB is the EASIEST land to go through. Do apply whatever you think about to the other lands : GG, NC, UG, LotE (as some of hardest to access).

 

Also, you have to take into consideration that UG is in the middle of MB.

 

Following the AP idea, it would be interesting to think what would a penalty of 5AP / person purging / each step within that land it was purged out from for the duration of the purge. But no longer then 5-10 minutes.

 

That would seem a hard punishment but not impossible to overcome and also pretty fair.

 

 

_____________________________________

I still don't like you chasing / cleansing me.

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Perhaps instead of 5ap per person purging each step it could be 1/20 or some other small quantity of a person's ap. People with lots of ap can skip through loads of viscosity fine after resting. If it were a flat amount then a land purger used against me would have a much greater impact than if someone use it on No one or another vet with lots of active days.

I chose 1/20 as an example because No one suggested 5ap which is 1/20 of 100ap, the starting amount.

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I get that No one is afraid that lands will get locked down and they even might if the items get powerful enough. Is there a use limit/cooldown on these items?

 

As i see it it's logical that these items have power and not 1/20 ap but atleast 50% or movelock but i dislike that.

Logical counter for me would be that the people purging must outnumber the number intruders in the scene.

 

So alone you get easily pushed out but get two friends and it's unlikely.

 

Miq

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A little bit off topic, but if its me speaking what do you expect? Anyways I do think this is a bit of a problem but a bit of an unsolvable one. People do go overboard on taking land resources, for example loreroots herbs are fresh out due to certain people that I wont name since thats not the point. The point is I feel like at least lands as a whole should have some power over these people, because its OUR land and not theirs to take from, especially if we do not allow it.

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It always seemed strange to me that those with a strong affinity to a land wouldn't be able to use that link to force out those lacking those ties. It seems fitting that through a sufficient exertion of will, people very rooted in a land could push around outsiders drifting/tumbling through.
 
Concept- and balance-wise, I'd suggest that if a single person cleanse-wins against an outlander, the outlander would be movelocked relatively briefly, and that if X players win vs outlander, that outlander would be pushed back X-1 scenes (two defenders—>pushed back one scene, etc) and movelocked for a length of time corresponding to the number of players fighting the outlander...but also that the outlanders, once attempted to be cleansed, could use fight causes (advancelr? entergg?) to gain ground against defenders in much the same way, but movelocking the defenders instead of pushing them backwards. (It just doesn't seem plausible for the outlanders to be able to push others around on their homeland.)
 
@Miq
[log="Land Cleanser"]An enchanted device capable of pushing marked individuals outside of a land, along designated pathways (known as heat veins). If the cause is won, the target can be pushed towards the land exit one scene. If the fight is lost, the target gets movelocked in place for 60sec per fight. This item is ideal when you need to defend a land from invaders.

Action code: fightcause#Fightfor=landguard;Effect_won=pushout;Effect_lost=movelock;Power_won=1;Power_lost=60;Minpeople=2;Maxpeople=10;Duration=2000;Amplif=1;
Max Uses: 30
Recharge rate: ~0sec
When consumed: returntogroup
Transferable: Yes
Group: [land]
Land Loyalty Required:
[land]: 170
Skills Required:
No Other Skills Required[/log]

 

No one, I don't mean this as an offense against you or anyone else in particular. It's your choice whether or not to use cleansers against those who walk your turf. Yes, we all have personal interests that can be almost impossible to set aside, but luckily nobody needs to/should set those aside entirely.

This suggestion's based off my perception of what fits with preexisting concepts, and the idea that some inter-land scuffles might liven things up in interesting and MD-wise realistic directions.

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What does "Duration:2000" means ? That for the duration of 2000 seconds ppl could join the fight ?

 

 

 

Then kind of offtopic:

------------------------------------

I get the reason for the improvement of this item. And no, there is no offense , at least not for me. I get it.

 

But I am still afraid that, as with most of the powerful items, they will be abused for other reasons.

Personal reasons ... it wouldn't do too much damage unless there would be more ppl involved.

 

But combined with a "land protection" reason, that would do lots of damage and not to me but to MD.

 

Anyway, I don't have much to say anymore, i've stated already what from my point(s) of view : the worse that could happen, some improvements that could be brought , the improvements that are not fit.

I will just wait and see. Good luck with keeping the items on the safe side.

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As of abusing, we could give this tools only to the fightingguilds of every land like KoB. Not sure if it is possible to make tools guild pecefic. And the 4 leaders of those guilds can discuss at certain times if everything is being abused by it.

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I agree with nadrolski as I tested the item with him and we were disappointed when there was no combo effect. Also I think it would make sense if the land cleansers were only given to fighting guilds like rikstar said to make sure the items would not be abused. I was going to say perhaps certain people could be assigned to use the cleansers to protect resources and such but the fighting guilds would do just that too.

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You mean : have guards to grant access to resources only to those that pay more ? That might work.

Or do you mean : to have guards to confer resource monopoly ? That will not work.

 

But wait, that is ... no, you just cannot separate the 2 roles.

Nope. Not a valid reason. It should not be validated in any unbiased decision circle.

 

 I didn't really mean either, although the first one could work. As a compromise, resources(like water) should be offered for sale , but not at outrageous prices. But I understand your point.

 

In return for reasonable prices, then people won't have to gather below the limit.

 

Also: I wonder what would happen if instead of a combo effect, the movelock effect was used first using the land cleanser and then another pair of people used the push effect shortly after, if that is possible.

Edited by Sir Blut
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Hi,

I'm Aquellia and I am new to the forums.

I've read through this thread which has deviated from the land cleansers topic it began with. To my understanding, Nadrolski is requesting that the land cleansers be more effective at removing unwanted people from a land. I would assume that the land in particular is Marind Bell. It has already been stated that the land cleansers original purpose was to fulfill what he is asking, although some torch related event with is not currently active was relivent to how it accomplished this.

I take note of the land in which the change is targeted for because of two reasons. Firstly is that unlike the other lands it has significant ease in which to travel through. Also unlike the other lands the land cleansers effect (due to the low ap cost) is minimal to negligible on it's land. Secondly is how Marind Bell along with the story mode have given me the impression that the land is intended to be open. In particular the only hostility I've seen or noticed from Marind Bell is that from Nadrolski. The (presumably automated) messages in chat are cold and distasteful and of what I've seen on the forums and in game his general attitude is also cold and distasteful. (Keep in mind this is how you've presented yourself and is simply my impression of you. As I've had little to no interaction with you I cannot say how you really are beyond such appearances.)

It has been hinted at that the rational in altering the land cleansers is to prevent non land members from harvesting resources within the land. To me this would suggest that the matter be moved to a thread regarding the availability of these resources. Perhaps a personal cool down when collecting to prevent someone from exhausting a resource. (weather it be daily, weekly, monthly or even all of them allowing someone to gather say 100 in a week but only 50 on any given day etc.) Such decisions should be discussed and agreed upon.

Why jump over hurdles when you can just fix the source?

In regards to the state of the land cleansers and weather they should change; Do they suit their purpose in other lands beside Marind Bell? (i.e.If i used one in GG, NC etc will it be significant enough to push people away?) If so then they need not change.

To Nadrolski,

I have been given the impression that Marind Bell is a welcoming place to be freely traversed. If I am incorrect please say so. I have also been given the impression that you are not a welcoming person. Again if I am incorrect please correct me. I understand that being a different temperament to your land can be a good thing and quite useful at times. Although It appears more as though your opposing ways are clashing. (Of course if either of the two above statements are wrong, then this does not matter and you can/should disregard it.) As such I kindly suggest that you look upon how you are and what you want Marind Bell to be. Think about weather you do it's image justice and weather it is a location that suits you. Being rather new I am unaware of how anything such as changing lands works but it is just something to consider. (Take note that I am not saying you should change lands of anything of the sort, I would in fact prefer that you simply work of your image and create an affinity with your land rather than what appears to be a collision of natures.)

 

 

I hope that this post was not too offtopic. It is intended to resolve the matter of the land cleansers and to bring light to the conlift of resources. I also hope that at least one person takes note of what I've said and puts it to even the slightest of good uses.

Aquellia.

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You mean like the one water MB leaves, when we harvest to 6/10 and similar?



Im not sure if nad knows, but a location of 10 can be harvested to 5/10 and still regenerate 3. I believe this is his plan, so that others can gather the final one.

As you know, at some point due to high stats you cannot just 1 but 2 resources at once. Meaning that he cannot bring the resource to 5.

 

No comment on why he is using the 6/10 instead of 5/10.

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