Future unimplemented rules superceeding current rules

[(Zl-eye-f)-nea]

I cordially request when looking at this that whatever has already happened be left alone in terms of the specific situation, because frankly its a mess. My only concern is the consequence of what has happened for future situations, To be clear: I'm entirely disinterested in lynching anyone.

 

The recent discussion about spoilers aside, my concern here is that the rule itself, no matter how you step around it, in my eyes was broken. Had the same thing been done with the buying accounts rule the person would have been lynched, but because spoilers to some people are less detrimental, instead it sparked a discussion.

 

The part that concerns me is that what appears to have happened is a fall back on to future events for justification of the action.

 

That is to say, the spoiler rule and how spoilers are to be considered in future will not be as it is now - and therefore, the rule has not been broken as such and there is no reason to look in to it or act on it.

 

This is not acceptable to me. How can we justify allowing a breach of rules due to an action that hasn't been taken yet or even mentioned? I may be totally wrong, but that's how it has come across and I'd like some clarity.

 

Z

 

 

[Sasha Lilias]

Precisely.

 

The rules currently state that spoilers are punishable. Nowhere does it say "Posting spoilers is ok now because it's become a common happening." At this moment in time, aside from social "norms" or happenings, spoilers are still considered against the rules. It does not matter what "future" rules may mention as we have not time travelled to the future - we are in the here and now.

 

If the foreknowledge of a rule change was there, it's meaningless. The rules were not, and have not, changed. 

 

This sort of behaviour though, sidestepping the matter and talking about something else, is done all the time, both here and in real life - politicians, especially, are extremely good at such things.

 

A rule was broken. Be there a rule change right now or tomorrow. It happened before this new rule was firmly set in stone and should, therefore, be punishable. 

 

Edit: Spelling

Edited March 20, 2015 by Sasha Lilias

[Chewett]

A couple weeks ago or so, I asked dst to publish the lab map on her blog for a number of reasons.

 

The main one was that I wanted to see the communities reaction to a spoiler being posted on an outside site.

 

It is well known that the spoiler rules are slowly changing, but they have not yet changed. It is good to see a lot of people care deeply about how spoilers are treated in MD. Its interesting to see that many players in MD would rather many things be posted publicly, and some would be fervently against this.

 

 

As someone raised, it is hard to stop if someone anonymous posted all the spoilers they had then we wouldnt be able to punish or stop them to be perfectly honest.

 

 

We also cannot stop people sharing spoilers privately (since we dont and wont ever monitor PM's, etc) so attempting to "punish" those is actually impossible.

 

 

Some things, we have encouraged people not to share and some things are less lax about. For example I have heard from good friends/spies/people that at least two lands have an archive of knowledge including lots of details about all creatures, attacks, how to farm them etc. We cant suddenly try and ban everyone using them because, while my friends have told me this in confidence, thats all and I wouldnt want to do that.

 

Things like creature images, are important to us as should be kept secret. Things like their stats, less so.

 

In a discussion with Mur we discussed the idea of posting all details about the entire combat system. Mainly because anyone that spends the time to learn it all and apply it, deserves the knowledge. Its not something that someone can read 5 lines and know it all.

 

I learnt a lot from reading your discussions on the forum and its very interesting to see such polarizing views.

 

In conclusion, and reply to Z, yes what dst did is currently punishable, and what she did would have been punished. But she did it by my request, so If you want to start formulating a punishment, it goes on me.

 

It would be good to see some further discussion about spoilers if people wish to continue.

 

dst will be removing her post.

Edited March 20, 2015 by Chewett

[Chewett]

There are lots of games where certain spoilers dont actually affect it. You can do a quest by yourself, or you can go on a website and find out how to get through the lab, etc. Its all a matter of how you want to do it. We havent yet decided where we will fit into this spectrum, so we are doing tests, seeing what people think, etc.

[DARK DEMON]

Why didn't you reveal some big SI/SOTIS/LotE/UG secret instead?. This is just wrong.

 

No, I don't want punishment, but I rarely become as disappointed as I currently am. You openly act against the value of a maze in MD.

 

 

edit: No, it cannot be justified by saying that "it was for the greater good because we really needed to know how people think of spoilers outside MD". Not at all. You could have taken anything else but you specifically chose the LABYRINTH MAP.

 

 

As stated earlier, I am thoroughly against spoilers because they reduce the value of knowledge in MD. I dare anyone to argue otherwise and justify spoilers. Private between friends is a different matter, but publicly?? For goodness' sake stop being temporarily selfish/impatient and see the long-term harm, people. I know the newer people don't understand why we are strict on spoilers, but at least the vets should know better.

 

Whoever is asking for the lifting of the spoiler rule, so that combat knowledge is freely available and they can have a look at creatures etc, are blind to the fact that others will take advantage of this situation and post more things than you can think at the moment (things that you will definitely not like, after which you will also post more stuff which they won't like and so on, creating a bloody mess).

 

I am a strong believer that if you are meant to know something in MD, you will definitely find a way to know it eventually if you try. In other words, if you're crying cause people aren't telling you secrets, then you simply don't deserve to know them yet.

 

But you're asking that hours of thought, conversation, ideas and effort should be wasted just because you're lazy? No way. 

Edited March 21, 2015 by DARK DEMON

[No one]

From my point of view, there are just  1 (ONE) kind of information that should not be thoroughly detailed : quest walk-through.

Otherwise I see no point in not sharing all the information.

 

Yea Z, but we cannot live in Dark Ages because someone did something in the past. That is why time is being lived : to experiment and adapt and adjust. If there is something that was proven wrong/bad, then you can forbid it.

But currently everything is out of touch.

 

Where would we be in RL if no information would ever be shared ? Wouldn't we be still in Dark Ages ?

 

I know that for some, even simple Math is difficult and head hurting, but DD, I don't understand why we are strict on spoilers.Care to spoil this to me ? I promise that I will not be upset for you spoiling this for me.

 

 

 

Errata : There is another kind of information that should not be release: RP stuff (aka invented stuff).

[DARK DEMON]

Nope, you don't deserve it.

[Pipstickz]

Why didn't you reveal some big SI/SOTIS/LotE/UG secret instead?. This is just wrong.

 

No, I don't want punishment, but I rarely become as disappointed as I currently am. You openly act against the value of a maze in MD.

 

 

edit: No, it cannot be justified by saying that "it was for the greater good because we really needed to know how people think of spoilers outside MD". Not at all. You could have taken anything else but you specifically chose the LABYRINTH MAP.

 

 

As stated earlier, I am thoroughly against spoilers because they reduce the value of knowledge in MD. I dare anyone to argue otherwise and justify spoilers. Private between friends is a different matter, but publicly?? For goodness' sake stop being temporarily selfish/impatient and see the long-term harm, people. I know the newer people don't understand why we are strict on spoilers, but at least the vets should know better.

 

Whoever is asking for the lifting of the spoiler rule, so that combat knowledge is freely available and they can have a look at creatures etc, are blind to the fact that others will take advantage of this situation and post more things than you can think at the moment (things that you will definitely not like, after which you will also post more stuff which they won't like and so on, creating a bloody mess).

 

I am a strong believer that if you are meant to know something in MD, you will definitely find a way to know it eventually if you try. In other words, if you're crying cause people aren't telling you secrets, then you simply don't deserve to know them yet.

 

But you're asking that hours of thought, conversation, ideas and effort should be wasted just because you're lazy? No way. 

The anger you've injected into this post is, I think, just but uncalled for. You take it personally because of your hours of thought, conversation, ideas and effort, but labyrinth maps have been drawn and shared (I had one myself, once upon a time) since before your hours of thought, conversation, ideas and effort. If a public maze map had been posted before your thoughts, and you had the thoughts anyways, would they not still be as valuable to you? I would think they would be, perhaps even more so.

 

The eternal struggle with spoilers is this: If you feed a new player answers, they lose the joy of discovery. If you don't give them enough, perhaps they run away. I remember Mur saying in a forum post something like "I wonder what would happen if we told a new player every spoiler". I think as a community we take spoilers too seriously and keep secrets too easily.

 

Here's my idea to convince you of this: I didn't beat LR guards with my own solution, it was told to me by a friend. I was also given a pretty good clue to the solution of the broken pattern puzzle and still I've never bothered to solved it, I just don't have the patience for some things. Does that mean I failed some MD "test" or "barrier", or that I'm not a valuable player? No, I most certainly don't think so.

[Chewett]

The idea came when I was sitting in a scene with one vaguely new, and another new player. One was telling the other that to reach GG they could go via the labyrinth, They told them it was hard, so the first person then just sent them a link to a map.
 
The lab map is the most traded "spoiler" iv ever seen and is exactly the type of thing that would be made quasi public as the rules change.

This is all part of the plan to make MD "more" playable. The whole spoiler culture does cause a lot of our players to leave and its really sad. It is good to see many people support such things being "vaguely" public.


Also: +rep by Mur, all is approved :P thats how it works no? Im only allowed to do things Mur approves? amiright? lol

Edited March 21, 2015 by Chewett

[DARK DEMON]

The anger you've injected into this post is, I think, just but uncalled for. You take it personally because of your hours of thought, conversation, ideas and effort, but labyrinth maps have been drawn and shared (I had one myself, once upon a time) since before your hours of thought, conversation, ideas and effort. If a public maze map had been posted before your thoughts, and you had the thoughts anyways, would they not still be as valuable to you? I would think they would be, perhaps even more so.

 

The eternal struggle with spoilers is this: If you feed a new player answers, they lose the joy of discovery. If you don't give them enough, perhaps they run away. I remember Mur saying in a forum post something like "I wonder what would happen if we told a new player every spoiler". I think as a community we take spoilers too seriously and keep secrets too easily.

 

Here's my idea to convince you of this: I didn't beat LR guards with my own solution, it was told to me by a friend. I was also given a pretty good clue to the solution of the broken pattern puzzle and still I've never bothered to solved it, I just don't have the patience for some things. Does that mean I failed some MD "test" or "barrier", or that I'm not a valuable player? No, I most certainly don't think so.

 

The first part of my post was separate from the second. I was angry at the Labyrinth map being used as a test spoiler. The second part is very general, not specific to the Laby map.

 

I don't think people are understanding my point. Apart from all I said about spoilers reducing value of knowledge, they also potentially destroy roles.

 

Imagine a role: gatekeeper of Loreroot, who would guide new players slowly on how to beat LR guards, in a fun way so that they learn something from it. If another guy comes and [spoiler method] gets them into Loreroot in 2 seconds, isn't it potentially making the role useless? Its different if the new guy is asking for it. That shows he isn't interested in the knowledge. But you can NOT make a thing like method to beat LR guards public.

 

I KNOW Laby map is a commonly traded "spoiler", but there is still a huge difference between this and a public image of a Laby map. (Not having a Laby map shouldn't make a new player run away. If that's the case, then I'd say let him run away.)

 

Taking your example, I say patience is indeed a test, and imo you did fail that test if you're resorting to easier faster methods. But that still doesn't make you a less valuable player. The only difference would be that the value of the actual method would get reduced in the process. Its not the value of the player we're talking about, but the method.

 

 

Edit:  It would be a much better and helpful option to point the newbie in the direction of the gatekeeper, rather than instantly telling the fastest method.

 

Similarly it would be a much better option to point the newbie to me rather than hand them a map of the Laby. So that they can learn a little more about the maze if they'd like to.

If the newbie isn't interested and asks for a spoiler, then fine, it's kind of "safe" because the guy isn't interested in the joy of knowledge/discovery. But for MD's sake don't encourage or offer it on your own.

 

I repeat again: I dread the day when someone would say "You don't know your way around the Laby or you don't know how to beat LR guards? So stupid!"

Edited March 21, 2015 by DARK DEMON

[Aeoshattr]

Potentially unpopular opinion incoming:

 

I dislike secrecy. I dislike this sort of "But I found this out and I don't want to share it with you because I put too much effort into it and/or you might use it for further research."

However, I am also against spoilers, especially such as quest walkthroughs (also including BP Gazebo, LR Guards, etc). I think spoilers such as artwork and such are less detrimental and could perhaps be acceptable. I'm uncertain how this would balance out, but the way I see it quests give a direct, clear advantage in-game (stats, wps, creatures, etc) whereas artwork is just something beautiful to look at.

 

I have 2 more points to make.

1. Lore Spoilers.
   1. I am unhappy with the current state of MD lore (old or new). Most of it is difficult to obtain, it is uncertain what is true and what isn't. I might come off a bit rude, but it just looks like a mess to those with an untrained eye; an amalgamation of many things that sometimes fit together, and sometimes don't. The concepts behind MD (or at least those that I currently believe are true, I might be wrong!) are brilliantly intricate, interesting and thought-provoking. It is a shame that it looks jumbled up at a first glance and this might confuse and discourage new players. 
   2. Should research (confirmed) and lore (again, true, confirmed lore) be publically available? I think yes. It will incite and trigger new research, theories and help MD grow, I believe - a good, structured story keeps people hooked and subtleties in the story can then intrigue and trigger research.
   3. I hope Project Legacy will help improve this situation.
   4. I hope there will be a centralised, available "Lore Library" with the actual truth in it.
2. Laby Map.
   1. Though, as usual, in a slightly inadequate tone, DD has a point. Revealing the map of the Laby utterly defeats the purpose of a laby. It's like giving someone the algorithm to solve BPG. It's giving the solution directly.
   2. I think DD is entitled to think this was directed at him as an offense, even if Chew and Dst (and whomever else was involved) did not intend this! I only ask that you lot acknowledge this - you have offended someone even if your intention was not to, and he is entitled to being angry. I am certain other land leaders would've been furious if you revealed something crucial about their lands too. Think of it this way, you were already in a tense situation - it would have perhaps been wiser to choose someone else to potentially offend.
   3. While this may have been beneficial for the greater good, this might have aggravated a conflict which was already unpleasant for many people. I am certain you could have found a more suitable spoiler for the experiment.

 

I hope my tone did not come off as angry or offensive, as it was not the intention. As always, I just want to point out some things that I believe shouldn't be overlooked.

[DARK DEMON]

Take lashtal's quest, Chasing Darkness. That is an incredibly awesome way to get more knowledge about the secrets of Necrovion and principles, research related stuff, etc. It is a completely open method for all to take part.

 

On the other hand, making a forum post with all that stuff in one post for all to see....

 

 

 

You see what I mean now?

Edited March 21, 2015 by DARK DEMON

[Chewett]

I cannot comment on DD's anger, but if he is upset then I do profusely apologize. The Lab map is the most well known and traded spoiler, by putting it in the public for a week or two should not have affected anyone very much. The presence of two MP3's passing the lab map from one to another (clearly they didnt make it) clearly showed me this not to mention the number of people I talked to who said "oh yeah I was given the map". It was a calculated risk and one that paid off greatly.

 

I see two types of spoilers, and this is quite possibly how things are going to be split.

 

Lore Spoilers: What is the lab, what does it represent, etc

 

Mechanical Spoilers: How do I get through the lab?

 

The distinction is between "MD players" and "grinders". Both of these players are accepted into MD, but it was more designed for the "MD player" who researches, looks into lore, roleplays.

 

First we are working to get the grinders happy, this is based on making things a little more public, (note I dont mean fully public) and getting mechanics to work better. This is important for the continued health of MD. We need these players to play and keep things going.

 

Once this has been done, we shall be able to ignore these boring "mechanics" and then work more on the lore and develop that, including things like start the AL again. We can focus on having a core set of "knowledges" known, and then having lots of areas to research. Eventually that will have certain people being able to "confirm" researches as truth, once they have had them confirmed by the Loremakers (the GM's).

 

We are going through some quite big changes, and not everyone is going to like them but we cant help that.

 

 

Combat is easy to understand the basics and hard to understand the advanced plays. We are going to provide a lot more detail and this will become even more apparent. This will mean that those that study it will be able to get a lot more advanced than they currently are. 

[Sasha Lilias]

Where would we be in RL if no information would ever be shared ? Wouldn't we be still in Dark Ages ?

 

Apologies no one but comparing in game knowledge to real life is ridiculous. In real life it is exactly the same, only the spoilers are completely different. 

We are given what we need to survive. No one openly teaches us how to bend the law around us, tells us governmental secrets, tells us knowledge that we aren't supposed to know unless we earn it.

 

Knowledge is a very real form of currency it RL, just as it is in game.

 

-------

 

What saddens me is the stench of laziness that is circulating around this subject. 

 

If you want to know something, earn it. Work for it. If you don't, why should you be rewarded for it? It is purely the laziness and greed of others that forces them to collect  and share spoilers - the greed being they want to know more but are unwilling to work for it.

 

What ever happened to that feeling of pride when you actually manage to work something out for yourself? Is this a desolate emotion now? Does no one actually have any self-worth any more? Or is it all simply about the immediate satisfaction? If so I'm pretty sure MD isn't the game for you. 

 

I was always led to believe that the game was structured in a way that was actually a form of "filtering" - to filter out those without the correct thinking or drive to achieve. Obviously I was wrong, it's a game where laziness and lack of drive is a good thing...shame.

 

MD has changed in the years, though I can't even think of a reason to say 'for the better' any more. Ask yourself "What was different back then...". Back then MD as thriving, everyone had fun, knowledge was earned through hard work and the rewards were worth it.

 

Here is a quick list of how things have become easier:

• ​Wishpoints for days - Wishpoints were once very hard to get. You can now get a load just by logging on.
• Viscosity lowered - Viscosity was put up to help "organise" players and keep them in the areas they should be circulating around. Now it's been lowered again. Why?
• AP boots all over the place - As if the lowered viscosity wasn't enough, there are now boots that allow you to access everywhere easily. What happened to the achievement of getting into GG or Necro? BOTH were once hard to get into, so held more meaning when you actually managed to. Now people come and go as they wish. Why? Laziness.
• Spoilers freely given - Most ridiculous and lazy rule I've ever heard to be implemented. Everyone that's stating "it's good" are either people that are a) guilty of doing so in the first place or b) think they have so much to gain for such little work. You can't speak for players that aren't playing yet. Stop pretending you're doing them a favour.
• Resource items given to everyone and anyone - Controversial opinion but why was it ever made public? There were alliances/guilds made specially for the reason, now anyone can grab something. It would have been better for each land if they were in charge of a certain material - this would force trading, could add coin to land treasuries and not have a detrimental effect on the resources through depletion, creating a steady flow of profit AND resources for everyone. But no...instead of having to work with a market they'd rather gather theirs for free and deplete in the process - as they have no care for anyone but themselves.

All these ridiculous changes are going to kill MD, not restore it.

 

Please, make MD even easier than it already is! Until these hierarchy 'cliques' stop nothing will change anyway.

 

Yay for killing MD! :)

[(Zl-eye-f)-nea]

Thank you for clarifying Chew. Appreciated, and alleviates the concern I had.

 

I agree with Aeo, the laby map was a poor choice especially to get Dst to do it, and I totally understand why DD is annoyed. However, similarly, its arguably the most obvious one.

 

Ive already stated my view on spoilers elsewhere. That being said, I appreciate the philosophy behind the concept being put forward here. No One I don't see it as the Dark Ages, but then I'm not a cattle herder so I wouldn't. IE: I've never been big on amassing people, I like amassing very specific things and I'm quite happy in a small clan or even as a hermit. That makes me great for keeping the heart of something true, but rubbish for making something hugely popular in a particular sense.

 

Have any of you ever played an old game called Myst? It has, imo, a similar feel to MD, and whilst it doesn't have a community, it does have very complicated puzzles and a hidden subset of information overlaying it. I loved Myst, but some parts required extra effort that I couldn't be bothered with. Yes, sheer laziness on my part, but at the same time, getting the next step and then carrying on meant I kept playing it whilst otherwise I probably would have stopped. At the same time, if Myst had a community I do think it would have been better that you could ask people and get support but that the spoilers did not get released, as that would force me to develop.

 

Z

[Nimrodel]

@sasha: Wishpoints for days: Reward for being a player of MD for a certain period of time, introduce a newbie to the awesomeness of a WP shop.

Visc lowered: Not enough people to walk thru to reduce visc. Imagine the plight of a newbie who wanted to see east. No wait imagine the plight of a newbie who wanted to finish tutorial.

AP boots: Some lands have an unfair advantage over others geographically. The latest set of ap boots are like a blessing for those wanting to enter necro or gg without the need to hop through alliances.

Spoilers freely given: Lolol. Lolololololol. It's a spoiler only if it spoils gameplay for you. If it makes your exp better, or makes you more comfortable, it's not a spoiler.

Resources: Why? People were being selfish. Branding people who spent hours to gather resources as depleters was such a b*tchy thing to do. Also, If you go for a tour in ougadagou and like a flower growing by the road, would you pluck it? Or wait for a native to bring a shear, cut it meticulously and then trade it to you?

To me it appears that you are upset about some people being more fortunate than the others :))

Also rather than saying all about "MD KILL DIE BURY LAZY KILL SOME MORE DIE SOME MORE HWAWADFAEGVVHHVRU" work towards improving it without being an irritating loud speaker. It erks people you know when someone keeps throwing so much negativity and pointing flaws when they can do constructive criticism and actual work to bring in reforms.

Idiot. Not!!
PS: Do you know how easy it was to get wps during rpc era? That was the only reward people could give for quests and there were sooo many rpcs. Try satisfying my tastes for sponsoring a WP now and I might give out for 1/15 quests because i can reward with coins, crits and items.