Heat, Liquid Dust, and Mirrors

[DARK DEMON]

This thread is a compilation of ideas from many people through in game discussions as well as forum topics. It is not a thread to argue over which is right and which is wrong. They are people's opinions and opinions can never be wrong. 

 

No statement/law implied here will apply to all cases.  (<--- this statement does though ;))

_______________________

 

An interesting discussion took place today and I'd like to share some ideas, as well as take some of your own.

 

It is implied that heat and liquid dust are polar opposites that are reflections of each other in a single mirror. Other comparisons were made, eg: heat being the active result of action and liquid dust being the passive, heat being related to kinetic energy and liquid dust to potential energy, and so forth. The overall idea is that there is a constant equilibrium between heat and liquid dust.

 

Naturally, such a discussion always arouses questions, but there is one particular aspect I'd like to focus on: shift in equilibrium to either one side.

 

How would such a thing be possible?

 

Both heat and liquid dust are mentioned to be "the blood of the realm". If we are to apply this to an organism, eg: human, then the only way to shift equilibrium appears to be the content of oxygen in the air, i.e: if oxygenated blood leads to heat generation, and deoxygenated blood being its result.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

[spoiler]

A few questions that came up:

 

1) What is the source of heat in MD?

2) What is the source of liquid dust in MD?

3) What happens if you broke the mirror in between?

4) What IS the mirror?

[/spoiler]

 

If you think it is impossible, please explain why and how.

Edited May 3, 2015 by DARK DEMON

[DARK DEMON]

The first two, by people. 

 

The blood reference, from Akasha's post about liquid dust. (which is http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/4182-liquid-or-dust/)

Edited May 3, 2015 by DARK DEMON

[DARK DEMON]

More questions:

 

5) How do you break the mirror?

6) If liquid dust is "more material" in Necrovion, that implies that there is a solvent of sorts present in MD, and there is very little of it in Necrovion. The solvent cannot be "people" because Necrovion has many active people. So what is this solvent that can dissolve liquid dust?

7) If Blackwater is the active form of Liquid Dust, can it be reduced back to liquid dust? If this process doesn't require heat then it might be a key...

[Aethon]

I won't say it's impossible, but I'll quite happily say it sounds like...babbling.
 
It isn't "said" (meaning common belief) that heat is the polar opposite to liquid dust at all. Though, if you can prove that wrong then I'll happily admit I'm wrong. :)
 
To say that it is the "mirror" would mean that if you believe liquid dust runs into Necrovion, then that is where heat runs out from...Which doesn't seem right if you look at heat veins and such.
 
Also you'd be insinuating that heat was barely around Necrovion, that it become more material as it moved away from the land? Which seems odd as heat is created by us, not the land itself? 
 

6) If liquid dust is "more material" in Necrovion, that implies that there is a solvent of sorts present in MD, and there is very little of it in Necrovion. The solvent cannot be "people" because Necrovion has many active people. So what is this solvent that can dissolve liquid dust?

 
Doesn't imply that at all? I mean, why does there have to be a solvent? Is it not possible for it to have a "solidifier" of sorts? Edited May 3, 2015 by Aethon

[DARK DEMON]

I won't say it's impossible, but I'll quite happily say it sounds like...babbling.

 

Babbling is important and gets you to places.

 

It isn't "said" (meaning common belief) that heat is the polar opposite to liquid dust at all. Though, if you can prove that wrong then I'll happily admit I'm wrong. :)

 

Its what I've heard 90% people say whenever this discussion has ever come up.

 

To say that it is the "mirror" would mean that if you believe liquid dust runs into Necrovion, then that is where heat runs out from...Which doesn't seem right if you look at heat veins and such.

 

What is the "mirror"?

 

Also you'd be insinuating that heat was barely around Necrovion, that it become more material as it moved away from the land? Which seems odd as heat is created by us, not the land itself? 

 

I'm implying that there is "something" out there, a solvent, which is less in Necrovion and more in other lands, causing liquid dust to be more concentrated in Necrovion than other lands. Of course, this produces a point against the earlier statement, because it means that a land where heat is generated (because Necro has many people) there is still lots of liquid dust.

 

Doesn't imply that at all? I mean, why does there have to be a solvent? Is it not possible for it to have a "solidifier" of sorts? 

 

And what might this solidifier be? If liquid dust is the inactive form of blackwater... so you mean something that reduces black water?

 

I think you are unnecessarily throwing away many possibilities. A solvent is definitely a possibility.

Edited May 3, 2015 by DARK DEMON

[Aethon]

 

I won't say it's impossible, but I'll quite happily say it sounds like...babbling.
 
Babbling is important and gets you to places.

 

Babbling does not. Babbling produces ridicule and dismissing of ideas.
 
It isn't "said" (meaning common belief) that heat is the polar opposite to liquid dust at all. Though, if you can prove that wrong then I'll happily admit I'm wrong. :)
 
Its what I've heard 90% people say whenever this discussion has ever come up.

 

I've spoken quite a bit about this and not once have I heard someone tell me that heat is a polar opposite? 
 
To say that it is the "mirror" would mean that if you believe liquid dust runs into Necrovion, then that is where heat runs out from...Which doesn't seem right if you look at heat veins and such.
 
What is the "mirror"?

 

What is a banana? The question has no relevance to my statement other than the fact I used the term mirror (loosely at that).
 
Also you'd be insinuating that heat was barely around Necrovion, that it become more material as it moved away from the land? Which seems odd as heat is created by us, not the land itself? 
 
I'm implying that there is "something" out there, a solvent, which is less in Necrovion and more in other lands, causing liquid dust to be more concentrated in Necrovion than other lands. Of course, this produces a point against the earlier statement, because it means that a land where heat is generated (because Necro has many people) there is still lots of liquid dust.

 

I would first look into your own statements and observations before throwing them to the wolves. If you first question yourself, rather than others, you may see the answers before you make "out-there" suggestions to be smacked down on...

 

 

Edited May 3, 2015 by Aethon

[DARK DEMON]

Honestly, you are the one dismissing ideas here rather than producing explanations against them. I asked questions and wish that you reply to them. I accept your opinions and possibilities and haven't dismissed them, hence you have no right to dismiss mine either.

 

I'll repeat, since you have not addressed them:

 

What makes you think there is a solidifier? What can solidify blackwater?

Nowhere have I said "liquid dust runs into Necrovion". I said it is concentrated there, for reasons we don't know.

 

I've spoken quite a bit about this and not once have I heard someone tell me that heat is a polar opposite? 

What have they told you? Please share your views.

Edited May 3, 2015 by DARK DEMON

[Change]

Liquid dust, from what I believe, doesn't 'run' into Necrovion (at least not naturally). Rather, the Howling Gates serves as a human-based 'filter'--and possibly also a mirror, though the mirror is likely bigger than the gates... The 'mirror' is more metaphorical than literal. It is the 'balance' talked about in the adventure log. As heat is created by actions, liquid dust, which is related in some way to potential, is also created. This is more of a philosophical concept than anything, imo.

 

Here's the example I gave in the chat:

 

If you have a car, and choose not to take the action of driving it, then no potential of where you can go is created/released. Basically, you can only potentially go places with the car if you drive it. If you don't drive it, you can go nowhere. It could also be compared to a candle. Light a candle and it makes heat, but it also creates many shadows.

 

Thus, if you take an action, heat is generated, and also potential (related to liquid dust). If you take no action, no heat and no potential is released/created.

 

As for there being some kind of 'solvent' that doesn't exist in Necrovion, would you explain that further, Dark Demon? Not sure what you're getting at with that...

Edited May 3, 2015 by Change

[DARK DEMON]

DD >>They are people's opinions and opinions can never be wrong.

Then goes and tells people's their opinions are wrong? Wut?

DD >>To say that it is the "mirror" would mean that if you believe liquid dust runs into Necrovion, then that is where heat runs out from...Which doesn't seem right if you look at heat veins and such.
------

Lets have a nice open discussion, and not go around telling other's their ideas are wrong... please?

 

I haven't said that. Please show me where I have stated his ideas are wrong.

 

If you are here to promote misunderstanding and not contribute, please do not post. Such posts as the one above are not contributing to the discussion.

Edited May 3, 2015 by DARK DEMON

[DARK DEMON]

As for there being some kind of 'solvent' that doesn't exist in Necrovion, would you explain that further, Dark Demon? Not sure what you're getting at with that...

 

That was the first thing that came to my mind, yes. I thought there is a solvent that exists in all lands, just less in Necrovion. The less the solvent, the more concentrated the "solution". But what might this be? 

 

Aethon offered another possibility: a solidifier. Again, what could this be?

[Change]

Aethon offered another possibility: a solidifier. Again, what could this be?

 

The 'solidifier' is likely the Howling Gates. As to why I think this, that is more complex...

 

What is Necrovion made of, Dark Demon? What elements reside in it? You know that liquid dust resides in it. Assuming that liquid dust is potential, then the potential could be 'solidified' into reality by the Howling Gates. Why the Howling Gates specifically? Because it's the only thing that was meant to let stuff through Necrovion. The house of liquid dust was an incredibly dangerous accident... Also, take a look at the physical appearance of the Howling Gates to realize what 'flavour' the filter is.

Edited May 3, 2015 by Change

[Miq]

Ave,

 

It's all Mur's forgotten imagination.

 

Miq

[Rophs]

One might think liquid dust cannot exist simply because of its name and (subconsciously) define it as nonexistant. This is a major barrier facing much of MD preventing deeper research. Think about it, how can something be both liquid and dust? If you remove the liquid from something it will often be dust. Figure out how the two ideas can be put together

[Change]

Think about it, how can something be both liquid and dust?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schr%C3%B6dinger%27s_cat

[DARK DEMON]

If Howling Gates is the only "solidifier", then teleportation would be an argument against this.

 

Honestly, I'd like to know the "facts" that some (though very few) people mention but don't talk about. Every_single_person including Necrovions I have met has a different point of view on it. Of course, there are many common points too. But I think this is what makes the research interesting and thought provoking in the first place.

 

Liquid dust, whatever it is, since day one was simply an idea, never a reality. IMO it was never meant to be fully understood and always remained mysterious. Whoever "created/introduced" it, also stated his/her opinion and not the real facts. I don't think there are any real facts because its not something a single person can undeniably observe. However, I think the idea can be made use of. I believe Change is correct in this regard by linking it to that thought experiment.

 

Whoever knows "the facts", please speak up and share your advanced knowledge with us. Nobody seems to know them because everybody speaks differently.

 

Lets see if there are any two people in MD who say the exact same 'fact'. I wouldn't think so.

Edited May 4, 2015 by DARK DEMON

[lashtal]

Ave,

 

It's all Mur's forgotten imagination.

 

Miq

 

In the light of this, should people refrain from researching and discussing?

[Miq]

 

In the light of this, should people refrain from researching and discussing?

No, it's just my opinion. 

 

If you want to but something in the light of this then it' that you are simply creating the facts that are not available and that noone can validate them.

[Jubaris]

No, it's just my opinion. 

 

If you want to but something in the light of this then it' that you are simply creating the facts that are not available and that noone can validate them.

 

If we shift to reality, nobody can verify 'science' either, observations and trying to detect patterns.

In here on the other hand, Mur can validate a lot of research, even though it's not present in some textual form as part of the game at the moment, the concepts are still in his head.

 

Meanwhile, you can observe and find patterns, deduct reasonable thoughts to the most logical one.

 

Abandoning the road to understanding of the realm is quite disappointing. Peculiar that you, Miq, as a Golemusian, have that view

[Nimrodel]

Actually I quite agree with Miq here. See, talking about science, I practice science everyday. My actions on a sick human and the response to his body to my actions are validatory enough to prove that my theory regarding treatment is correct. I really dont see that in MD. Bootes proposed two suns in MD and Renavoid bought in a space ship that crashed on an important landmark. Can you refute either of them? Say that Either of them are wrong? I can't. I can only say if I agree with their ideas or not. There is no one to confirm the theory here. Its like 100% assumption. Only coded mechanics are absolute. 

 

Lets say DD calls the maze a broken mirror. Mur agrees with him. Not once in my life have I felt that the maze was a broken mirror. For me it was always a quest, a test of perseverance, a source of twisted entertainment, a way to get to golemus, a place to hide during training, heads and torch and a bunch of more things like that. Can anyone refute my theory if I say that the Maze is Not similar to a broken mirror? its just a garden of bushes grown for entertainment? Even if Mur says otherwise I wont accept it :P Because i dont see it that way. There is no concrete proof that it resembles a broken mirror :P

 

So yeah! Thanks for being brave Miq and stating that aloud, something which I had been hesitating to say for quite a loooong time :P

[Aeoshattr]

With the risk of butting in inappropriately...

 

1. I am often given the "but you can't make analogies between MD and RL because MD is SOOOOO different from RL" argument. While at an objective level I think that is quite preposterous, subjectively I am accepting it because it is more convenient than to actually argue against it. Where am I getting with this? RL research will not be like MD research. There rarely ever is an objective truth - it needs to be confirmed by Mur (or others? Chew? Don't know) and even when it does get confirmed, odds are that bits and pieces of the "discovering" player will be left in the theory. Players mould and shape MD and I believe that happens to lore as well (which might be one of the reasons why the Lore feels a bit like a chimera right now). Is it good? Is it bad? I can't say.
2. This brings me to this second point: good or bad, should we discourage it? Can I drop the f-bomb and say F. NO? Sometimes you're right, sometimes you're wrong. Both are equally important, and it is important for you and others to know how you were wrong - so that they can learn how they might be right (I.E. new approaches/theories that don't just repeat previous false theories). I think people should be encouraged to research and try to understand and explain aspects of MD - I'm not expecting the majority to get things right. But the process of reaching the conclusion (whether true or false) is often valuable.
3. However - I do believe false information should not be spread. I.E. if you are researching something publicly, and are not certain of your knowledge, then do not state it as fact. Please keep in mind that certainty doesn't necessarily mean absolute truth - but your affirmations should be made on more than just a whim. If you think X, then present your arguments why. Doesn't matter if you're wrong or right as long as you provide arguments for others to review and decide whether to accept your statement or not
4. Finally, I believe research should be more openly available (once complete!). I hope that the Legacy project will help lead to a more structured, properly stored research base.

TL;DR - research in MD is a fun activity (for me at least). People shouldn't be discouraged from trying to understand the realm of MD, even if it feels like MD "science" can't be properly tested or observed; however this must be compensated for by a rigor of logic and argumentation. And finally: Being wrong is not bad! Being dishonest is.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Aeoshattr

[DARK DEMON]

Actually I quite agree with Miq here. See, talking about science, I practice science everyday. My actions on a sick human and the response to his body to my actions are validatory enough to prove that my theory regarding treatment is correct. I really dont see that in MD. Bootes proposed two suns in MD and Renavoid bought in a space ship that crashed on an important landmark. Can you refute either of them? Say that Either of them are wrong? I can't. I can only say if I agree with their ideas or not. There is no one to confirm the theory here. Its like 100% assumption. Only coded mechanics are absolute. 

 

Lets say DD calls the maze a broken mirror. Mur agrees with him. Not once in my life have I felt that the maze was a broken mirror. For me it was always a quest, a test of perseverance, a source of twisted entertainment, a way to get to golemus, a place to hide during training, heads and torch and a bunch of more things like that. Can anyone refute my theory if I say that the Maze is Not similar to a broken mirror? its just a garden of bushes grown for entertainment? Even if Mur says otherwise I wont accept it :P Because i dont see it that way. There is no concrete proof that it resembles a broken mirror :P

 

There are two ways science progresses: either finding supporting evidence or by falsifying.

 

I honestly think that all of us are actually on common ground to some extent. I absolutely agree with the point that there are no "facts" when it comes to things like this, hence my earlier post. Since day one I have stated that the broken mirror and center thing is a theory and just that. But the way Miq is saying it, its as if research is not worth it or its useless cause nobody can validate it or whatever.

 

But like you just said, do you need anybody to validate your beliefs? No you do not. If Mur or anyone else says that shifting equilibrium is not possible, I will do my best to prove them wrong because in my opinion it might just be.

 

Research and researchers should always remain open-minded, sure, but its an entirely different thing to call it a waste of time. We are not "creating facts", we are suggesting possibilities and gradually narrowing it down to the "best" one which we may intend to follow.

 

I agree with what Rhaegar said (unless I've misinterpreted him), on the point that its perfectly right to research, discuss, find evidence for and then practically experiment with things that seem to be the most logical, eventually reaching a conclusion and bringing in a new idea that was earlier not thought of.

 

And this thread aims to do just that: whether or not there is evidence to see if a shift in equilibrium is possible.

Edited May 4, 2015 by DARK DEMON

[Jubaris]

What you said about medicine, Nim, doesn't contradict what I said. In regards to the reaction of the body - you found out a pattern (by observing and processing information) where substance X helps with the disease Y and you apply it.

Those patterns can be useful on their own and can be used as a reference to discover new patterns, and you use that to manage yourself in the world BUT they don't grant you the understanding of the realm, you ponder upon the patterns and observations you know and throw some abstract conclusions, theories... 

Simply said, those abstract conclusions and theories are metaphysics, and it's a rough equivalent of what research in MD is.

 

Practical information, patterns such as reaction of the body in medicine, have MD equivalent in the actual mechanics.

 

In reality, you cannot prove that our whole existence as we know it, for example, isn't just some simulation, you work with what you get. But in MD, the context of MD existence was imprinted by Mur. There may be lesser amount of 'planned' concepts and info on MD than some think, not everything is made to have perfect sense (lot of things aren't), but it's not the opposite either. There's a lot to be known under the surface, and that's where you head with the research.

Sometimes you don't search for the MD truth either, just for personal interpretations (or should I say inspirations) that help you in your own understanding of the world in reality by using parallels by drawing up conclusions that weren't intended by the creator.

[Nimrodel]

i wasnt talking about medicine reggie. I was talking about SUrgery. I never took up medicine because i couldnt see what I was doing. It is all based on assumption that a particular drug works in a particular way. In my field If I cut something I know that cutting it will cause a certain effect. Because its right infront of my eyes. I know that if an artery is cut it will bleed whereas when a nerve is cut it wont. MD is not like that. If there is an angien at the necro gates, I dont know if its a guardian, if its a balancing agent, or if its just there for beautification. I present a hundred theories and if mur says one of my theories is correct, does that mean that the 99 other theories i considered are wrong? Thats why I like combat. If I attack with a certain crit in a certain way I know what it will do. I know its absolute. I know that if I pick up a memory stone with a detector how many memory stones it will pick up and how much gain i'll get in my skill. Its absolute. Its fixed. Rest isnt. I dont know what the faceless angien signifies, I dont know what the crowned angien signifies, there are so many cultures with so many different beliefs. MD is built on one person's imagination. One who expands his imagination sometimes basing on the opinions of other people who look at his creation through different eyes. IS MD research absolute? Can I be certain that I am looking at a picture through the eyes of the creator? No. Not really. And thats what makes me so demotivated when it comes to research.

 

When there is an assumption about a lost artifact that has been found, sure people guess about the pictures painted on it and the shape that has been carved. But nothing is confirmed till there is documented proof through the creator's eyes. When a critic comments on a piece of poetry and its assumed meanings after the poet has passed away, how can one be sure that it is exactly what the poet wants to convey? I find that very uncomfortable.

[Miq]

I do not wish to discourage anyone.

 

The thing is from my opinion it's quite pointless atm. Mur is not active and i will not send him emails about my discoveries, assumptions and what not. 

 

If I'd do i RP research i'd never but it on forum (forum is not for rp). So the only way is that Mur happens to read my papers or stumble on chat maybe even someone points it out to him.

 

You cannot build a huge idea in one step. You have to try, prove and get valid results on smaller pieces before. Aka claiming that Liquid dust flows in the blackwater would first need a validation that it even flows.

 

Have any of you wondered why don't we have new legends anymore? Why all the famous people are from certain time (when MD was actually moving and shifting)? People are more dull nowdays? 

 

Miq

Edited May 4, 2015 by Miq

[DARK DEMON]

We've gone quite a bit off topic here, requesting mods to please split >.>

You cannot build a huge idea in one step you have to try, prove, and get valid results on smaller pieces before. Aka claiming that Liquid dust flows in the blackwater would first need a validation that it even flows.

 

That is not a random huge claim out of nowhere. There is definite evidence for it, in spell docs and in ancient research, etc. A lot of things led to this "suggested possibility". Its not even a claim that XXX things happens, yet.

 

I think the thought that Mur is the only one who validates research is incorrect. Miq, are you trying to imply that we are dull nowadays cause Mur is inactive? Well, that is BECAUSE we tend to rely on Mur before we do anything at all, which shouldn't be the case.

 

I think its pretty much determined that there are no "facts" when it comes to ideas like this. Hence, "validation" will come from the people themselves; what the majority believe and are willing to accept, etc. That is just my opinion.

Edited May 4, 2015 by DARK DEMON