Most Wanted - Tokens Getting Balanced

[Muratus del Mur]

Please elaborate the subject here, make sugestions, complains, etc.
Try to keep it organised.

MODS: please update this with conclusions, thank you.

[Tarquinus]

I personally like the concept of tokens - that they add a new dimension to tactics in the game, and allow more casual players to become competitive in battle - but feel their implementation has resulted in some perhaps unforeseen circumstances. I notice a large number of fights ending in round zero; I see a lot of duels in which one side deals 100% damage while the other deals 0%.

The culprit seems to be the massive bonuses given by principle charges to such skills as Attack and Initiative. Though your first revision to these bonuses brought a much-needed mitigation - a fraction of the principle charge as a bonus rather than the full charge - it has proven inadequate, since huge principle charges seem to be rather common among certain players. The result, as you surely know, is that a small yet significant number of players has the ability to inflict multiple thousands of points of damage in a single attack. In a thread on the subject, I saw a suggestion for a scaled progression of bonuses, wherein the first chunk of principle charge provides a significant bonus but each successive increment provides a smaller one, with the result that even vastly inflated principle charges will not produce such bloated bonuses.

Some experienced players and skilled duelists have complained that tokens have taken the strategy out of dueling. I reluctantly agree, and find this result distressing since it seems to be the precise opposite result that tokens were intended to provide.

I have spent a fair amount of credits on tokens, learning how they work and what kinds of bonuses they provide, and though I have not become competitive with the "best" of the token-equipped duelists, I do find that my attacks are significantly more lethal than they were, and that, given my relative numerical value of skill statistics, the lethality I have gained from tokens seems inappropriate.

[Burns]

darksky and claws are WAY overpowered, the rest is quite okay imo...

tokens could be nice2have-features, but currently, they are grotesquely throwing any strategy over board and encourage brute force and alt-abuse...

specially the atk and def boni of claw and darksky need limits, or at least another calculation, i'll just be pointing over to [url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/4647-tokens/page__view__findpost__p__37134"]this topic[/url] for ideas people already had... [i guess that's the one Tarquinus was talking about, too]
unlike Tarquinus, i don't mind the init at all, since any boost of init will almost surely give your creature the first strike, and that's a nice strategic effect to use, it's more the lethal more-than-10k-attacks that bother me with the tokens...

other tokens, specially blooddrop, show a superb approach with their % increases, but don't work unless you have exactly those principles, which is quite annoying for people who miss one of those principles

the Ve tokens are quite easily countered, no objections to those, even though doubled Vit on rusty is quite a lot, too XD

Edited August 9, 2009 by Burns

[Liberty4life]

lol as long as player without tokens has no chance of beating player with tokens, then tokens are overpowered
damn tokens give HUGE boosts overall token boost should not boost it over 100% or maybe even 75%

[Prince Marvolo]

I think a kind of "Maximum boost" can do very well with for example claws

[Tarquinus]

[quote name='Burns' date='09 August 2009 - 07:01 AM' timestamp='1249819316' post='39023']unlike Tarquinus, i don't mind the init at all, since any boost of init will almost surely give your creature the first strike, and that's a nice strategic effect to use, it's more the lethal more-than-10k-attacks that bother me with the tokens...[/quote]
I see Burns' reasoning here. My complaint about the high initiative bonus has to do with the combination of that bonus with a high Attack bonus - with the right tokens, some rituals really seem undefeatable as things stand, unless one is willing to load massive amounts of xp on a creature and sacrifice it for the principles that will provide bonuses of a similar level.

[Shadowseeker]

There's more to it, I can prepare a list of tokens which I think need to be balanced, like adding either a maximum value or a dropping percentage the high principles you have: make it exponential, so that if you do want to squeeze out more you need lots more principles. That would help with stats being a more decicive factor again, however tokens would then provide an option instead of stat grinding.

Claw II- attack stat, though already less
blooddrop2- The freeze aura is too imporant for strategy, the other antifreeze can stay. This one has to be altered, or a huge element will get taken out.
kellethafire- defense
enlightning- make it maximum of 4k/1k imo.
firedrop- debtable, should add less.
darksky- attack
claw3- attack and initiative
sunshine- lower the percentage, make it to something like +30% attack...and I'm not sure, but I think the +20% def one is not working.

Pretty much any token adding stats to either ve, attack, defense or init has to be balanced out.

My suggestions:

The following should have the required exponential raise to increase the stats further...Because adding a cap is not benefitial for the veterans who actually farm.
claw2
kellethafire
firedrop
darkysky
claw3

These just need their values adjusted:
Sunshine
enlightning

[b][u]Most important[/u][/b] in my opinion:
blooddrop2- The freeze aura is too imporant for strategy

[Lifeline]

its true that the damage boost from darksky and claws is too high. lowering the added value is a good idea. but do NOT make it like this: first attack boost(claw2) will give the full amount 100%, the second (darksky) only gives 50% of the amount, the 3rd (calw3) 20% ect. that would totally destroy the way how token stack on each other.

there are insanely high principles out there so i think the best option would be for darksky for example to add the full amount until a certain point and then lower it more and more. like darksky gives attack equal to dark principle until point A, after point A it adds 50% of the principles to attack until point B and after point B only 10% or something like that.

claw2: balance out the attack boost. lower bonus
kellethafire: lower the defence boost a lot
firedrop: adds way too much vitality in some cases so balance that one as well
darksky: balance out the attack boost. lower bonus
claw3: ballance out all 3 boosts

as for sunshine and other token that give a %boost. if the above tokens are balanced out and the bonus is much smaller so will be the % bonus of the sunshine automatically. it needs no changes at all if the damage boosting tokens get much lower bonuses.

enlightening is fine in my point of view. if somebody has 8k wins on his crit and doesnt use to sac it its ok to give him 8k more attack. in my whole MD time i had 6 creatures with around 7k wins. all other creatures were barely above their win req to max. and about 4 more or so with around 3k wins.

blooddrop2: its a rare principle combination ...hmm i dont really know. but an elemental with perm antifreeze is very deadly in the headcontest on mp4 for example. so perm antifreeze might be something that is too overpowered. open for debate

EDIT: ah and also this is a great opportunity for me to bring up the token deletion feature with around 60 supporters again xD

Edited August 9, 2009 by Lifeline

[Shadowseeker]

I might have not clarifies enough, I meant that with exponential lowering like this: You have 5000 principles, and get 5000 boost (random example numbers). You have 7000 principles, and only get 6000 points...exactly values still have to be determined, of course.

[dst]

Don't you think that 5000 attack just from one token is huuge? I would like to see values more close to reality. Values under 1000 for each token. It's ok if they stack but not like this.
The combats are no more based on strategies. I really HATE that. What happened with: every rit has a counter? I want that back! I want to feel the thrill of finding a counter for a rit. Otherwise the so praised "noobs can defeat vets based on knowledge" is a bunch of cr**.
You all came up with good solutions so all I want to see is this: LOW values! There is one token that gives you max 300 def for a crit that has 300 or more wins. That is perfect in my opinion. Why covert principles 100% to stats? Why not convert a fraction of them and use the stats of the crit? Like the xp or the wins or the age? I understand that principles are the main focus but they are also the easiest to farm. Do we really want this?

[Prince Marvolo]

I agree with Dst... 5000 looks little for tokens, but it is A Lot If you realise not much (almost none in my knowledge) have that attack stat at real stats...
Let the Strategy come back...

Maybe, a max amount of tokens on each creature can help too?
So creatures cant have A Lot (if not All) Toekns at them...

[Shadowseeker]

lol..I just picked 5000 as an EXAMPLE.

If you want something more realistic, make it more towards a function like:

X=principle value involved

y=stat bonus

y=100 ln (1+X)

(ln= logarithm naturalis, you know, that one based off e)

Why 100 before? Because this way you have about:
10 points mean +230
100 points mean +460
1000 points mean +690 stats
10000 points mean +921

As you can see, REALLY low stats. REALLY. Alternate this by tweaking the function using a modifier in the logarithm function, make it another base, or adding another multiplier, or base constant, like +100 right off the bat.

Small edit, thanks to Kafuuka for pointing a flaw out. I'd have thought the system recognizes the variable as non existing..but you never know.

[Guybrush Threepwood]

Yay, logarithmic functions for determination of principal bonuses has been suggested! Anywho, I think a few tokens have been completely overlooked on this. Yes, the tokens previously mentioned need to be scaled way the heck down, but the ones burns mentioned, the bloods that give %bonuses need to be fixed as well.

Having a blood drop that gives a 20% bonus to attack, but only based on the critters attack and doesn't include my influence is pretty darn useless. Really, almost no point at all in having it.
As far as Blood IIs, yeah, they seem a little overpowered if you have those principals, and few do. I'm one of them though, so I'm gonna go ahead and say I'm ok with that >.> (though I have yet to get one.)

One possibility, and I mentioned it in the other thread, is to spread principals out per critter like stats do. Sure, 5k attack on one critter is more than a person can normally do in a 6 critter ritual, but it's not THAT high if it's only adding 5/6ths of that. (OK, most people still don't have 5k attack stat, but some do.) So, for example, a person with 6000 in time, would then have 1000 in time counted toward each critter in a six critter ritual. In other words the token doesn't base it off your principals, but your individual critters principals. From there there just needs to be a way to make the principal gain--->stat for tokens to stat gain relatively equal, so that training principals isn't so great.

About the initiative bonus for a claw III. 5000 personal attack is very high, 5000 personal initiative is absolutely ludicrous. I think tokens ought not be completely mitigating personal stats. (Though it kinda works for me as my stats are much lower...)

Edited August 9, 2009 by Guybrush Threepwood

[Lifeline]

i want to make something clear i think most players dont understand:
no matter how much u lower the boost of token a player with lots of token on a crit will still always beat one without. here an example:
max boost of claw2 = 300attack (which would be insanely low), max boost of darksky 600, max boost of claw3 300. that would still be 1200 attack and 600 ini on one single crit. to get the same effect from stats alone in a 6 crit ritual u would have to have 7200attack and 3600ini. now tell me how many people have that? that single crit would still wipe out all competition and i didnt even took vitality %boosts, antifreeze, ect into consideration.
and even if u drop the boost of token even more having those token on all of my 6 crits in a ritual i will still always win against players with no token at all.

most players want token balanced because there is no chance to win with a tokenless ritual vs a token rit. that wont change anyway! think again about the values above. to get all those token u have to spend a lot of money in the MDShop and u also need an alt to buy it or get rid of all ur other creatures to get them on ur wanted crit. who would do that for a low boost of only 300 attack for a claw2 if u dont even know which crit will get it and with no guarantee to even get the claw2 because it might give u a claw1. to even get the chance for a darksky token u have to exhaust 2 other series completely so if u dont buy all at once all u will get is a lousy 300attack boost for claw2 and nothing mentionable besides that. if the boost are that low then either people will stay away from token completely (because its not worth it to have some token on some crits. below 30credits u cant even get darksky or claw3. then just getting credits on an alt to buy a rusty would be much better) or they will get lots of token on all crits (10+ or so on the same crit) and then still be able to kill everybody.
and no u cant limit the number of token on a crit anymore because some people already have 10+ token on a single crit.

i am sorry to destroy ur hopes of being able to compete with token rits if u cant afford token urself but no matter how this is changed it wont be possible anymore

[Burns]

first of all, 300 is rather high, that's a 300% bonus for a grasan and even more for an archer... did you even consider that? or is it 'normal' for you to have crits with over 2000 atk?

and the token limit is no trouble at all, we also got the losses limit while some people were way under the max losses...
those with heavy-tokend crits would have something really valueable for trading/fighting, whatever they like better, i guess

apart from that, it would at least be somehow manageable to win against a grasan with 1200 atk and 600 def, while it's pretty impossible to win against one with 50k atk and def

[dst]

I do have another idea but...what if the boost would apply only if you have at least 2 principles out of 3? Or maybe all 3 as it already is for some. This will make some tokens useless indeed but even now for me there are tokens which are useless but I still have them.

[Udgard]

Ditto to what burns say. Winning against a stronger foe is indeed not easy, whether the difference in power came from tokens or not, but at least it is somehow still a fight if the tokens are rebalanced (I still remember almost never- if ever- defeating dst with her insane stats back in the old times, but at least I can give some struggle with the right rit). Right now it's not even a fight, it's a slaughter.

On the other hand, the current system makes it so that personal stats is 'quite easily gained', at least to the level that the craeture's own stats don't matter much anymore (so like, knators, despite having a better amount of attack than archers to offset their multi-random only targeting, are hardly ever used anymore). I kinda wish that there are tokens that gives different effect in every creature, thus making creatures unique once more.

And, back to the tokens balancing thingy, how bout making tokens work as a percentage of creature stats+influence, but with a certain cap based on the amount of principles you have(not 1 principle = 1 point cap, of course), and maybe other factors (age/win/etc)?

[CrazyMike]

Percentage on principles
Percentage on Creature Stats

All these can still measure up to mad stats for a player who knows how to boost principles or creature stats

Just put a cap on the stats gain from each token

That will even out the playing field!

[Shadowseeker]

It seems it's not entirely clear WHY I proposed that the BloodDrop 2 is getting altered.

It's a simple thing, freeze is the only thing besides lifesteal which helps against high stats...and lifesteal doesn't work as often as I#d like it.

So, we need to ensure that freeze STAYS a possibility. When you cannot, then the stats kick in: However with enough freeze you could manage, freezing the damagers enough to prevent high damage. That's why although you need to make something against the values, freeze it the highest priority: Think of combat back then, then the stat grinders were winning more often, it's the same.


And NO, no cap. As I suggested, that is unsuitable for veterans who did get more values, which shoul still help...just not as much.

[Udgard]

IMO, caps are not that bad, even for veterans. Tokens are supposed to add a flavor and uniqueness to combat, not determine too huge a part of the fighting process, so a cap will reroute the strength-farming process to other methods than principle farming, such as the old stats-grinding method. I do like a dynamic cap system more than a fixed cap system though, where the cap is one that keeps on increasing based on things like, for one thing, age and active days, which would give people more value for perseverance, and works for the veterans.

[Fenrir Greycloth]

I with all that has been said, all that I managed to read, I just have one thing tonadd... Tokens have destroyed the individuality of creatures. How often do you see a lorerootioan archer or a knator? These creatures and others have become useless. Hopefully we can change this somehow.

[dst]

Actually...I think nobody uses knators and lorerootians (except at the beginning) . I certainly stopped using them after I maxed them.
But yes, right now only one thing matters when it comes to a crit and we all know (or should know) what that "feature" is.

[Kafuuka]

[quote name='Udgard' date='10 August 2009 - 04:23 PM' timestamp='1249914224' post='39146']
IMO, caps are not that bad, even for veterans. Tokens are supposed to add a flavor and uniqueness to combat, not determine too huge a part of the fighting process, so a cap will reroute the strength-farming process to other methods than principle farming, such as the old stats-grinding method. I do like a dynamic cap system more than a fixed cap system though, where the cap is one that keeps on increasing based on things like, for one thing, age and active days, which would give people more value for perseverance, and works for the veterans.
[/quote]
to put it into maths:
a fixed cap: A x / (1 + B x)
dynamic cap: [ A x / (1 + B x) ] f(t)
progressive: A ln (1 + B x)
where x is principle value and t is age/active days.
Obviously the fixed cap is the most restrictive formula and progressive the least.

Using multiple principles you could go for either f(x) + f(y) or f(x)f(y), the latter giving a considerably lower reward if your principle values are not distributed evenly.

Personally I would have different tokens use different combinations of formula, taking into account if they require the principle of balance, time or something else that would justify the combination. eg Balance, light and darkness: A = A' (1 - deviation/mean); if it uses time, use dynamic cap etc. It would require some thinking and code work, but it would require a lot more thinking and experimenting for people to find out how it works, which is something that fits this game.

Also the oldest trick to nerf, is to add a negative effect. eg A token that gives initiative but takes away attack. It wouldn't work good with the random distribution, but I doubt people would be sad if random distribution was to disappear.

The above are suggestions on how to alter tokens, I haven't got any so I couldn't care less if they are altered... I just like discussions and someone mentioned maths earlier in this thread.

[Muratus del Mur]

i am reading this topic very slow because i have to check and imagine what each of your suggestions might do. The ln() increase sounds good, it was in plan for a long time, but i am currently not too happy to how fast it drops, making principles useless after a certain value. Keep posting, also react to the changes i will post on the newslog, but remember i will reply late to this and i might also change some of the announced things if i encounter better options suggested by you.

Thnx

[Guybrush Threepwood]

The natural log is just an example, and yeah it cuts off pretty fast. You could use a log base 2 instead, or a log base 1.3 or whatever. Closer you get to 1 the more slowly it cuts off. Or you could use x^.9 or any other value less than one (obviousley above 0). There are lots of formulas you can use for diminishing returns, so you can find one that you feel more appropriate.

And Fenrir, you used to use Lorerootian archers before tokens?

As for the freeze, freeze counters low critter rits well, but it doesn't work well against rusties or drachs. I like the birds freeze, but a critter with great stat boost, good targets and abilities with freeze on top? The issue is that with good enough critters it doesn't make sense to use less critters since your getting crazy stat boosts anyway, you have more stats on each critter with 6 then you would with one.