Most Wanted - Tokens Getting Balanced

[No one]

[quote name='Fenrir Greycloth' date='10 August 2009 - 03:58 PM' timestamp='1249916316' post='39150']
...How often do you see a lorerootioan archer or a knator? These creatures and others have become useless. ....
[/quote]
As often as I open the creature page, but to use them ... not since i got tokens ;(

[Muratus del Mur]

What do you say about the new way of using principles based tokens (more skills/ve VS principles tokens) ?

[Udgard]

I personally am not that sure that it will change things much. As it is now, those tokens can lead to a 1 round only battle, regardless of how much VE the enemy has due to the massive bonus of the principles. Personal skills also isn't that much trained these days and people focus more on training principles. As a result, I think those with crazy principles amount will still just choose to fight with 0% VE+skills influence and 100% principle effect for tokens, as they will still win the battle on the first round, thus negating the need of any VE on their creatures (plus, with a large max VE and a good combo count, their creatures will still receive a respectable amount of VE bonus at the start of the battle).

[dst]

There is an issue with the tokens. I tested the claws and nothing changed. I get the same amount of attack/def/init/etc as I did before the "tempering".
Not to mention that there is another bug (thanks Lifeline for pointing that to me) where all the tokens get "break freeze". Or it was...few hours back. Haven't checked since then.

[Fenrir Greycloth]

Yes, guy. I used to use only lorerootioan creatures and I toed them as being allies. I would play with the knators and train with the archers and I had a ritual using only lorerootian creatures that was actually quite effective.

[Death Bell]

yeah even i saw it, it said break freeze.... i thought its something that is usually there....

@dst
only the darksky and KellethaFire are effected by that rule... claw 1, 2 ,and 3 isn't...

[Guybrush Threepwood]

Don't know what break freeze does, but the claws are definitely not giving attack bonuses anymore. Only issues I see here is that it makes claw IIIs all the more powerful. As Awiiya said, with 3000 initiative and tens of thousands of attack you don't need personal influence.

[dst]

@Death Bell:
This is the announcement:
"Tokens based on principles will have their power reversed to the percentage of vitality(skills) involved in the fight. For example a principle based token that increases attack by +1000 will increase it just to +300 if you use 70% vitality for that fight or to 900 if you use just 10% vitality for that fight.
The following creature tokens where changed:
[firedrop], [blooddrop1],[blooddrop2],[claw1],[claw2], [claw3], [darksky], [kellethafire]"

So I expect to see a change.


@Guy:
No, they still give the HOLE attack and def and etc. That's the main idea. Nothing has changed.

[Clock Master]

I don't know about the other tokens that suffered changes but I can tell what I have noticed from the claw 1 and claw 2. If you use creature with claw on it then the new rule is implied meaning that lower influence you use more effective the token is, BUT if you use the same creature in your defense then the rule doesn't work anymore meaning that no matter how much influence you use the tokens will be 100% effective

[Guybrush Threepwood]

Maybe I should have been more clear on what I meant, but the claw II is deffinately not giving me attack bonus when I use 100% (Like it's meant to). It still says the bonus is whatever, but it says 0% effective and is in fact 0% effective.

[juntaozhu15]

it works for attacks, but is always 100% in def

[Lifeline]

[quote name='Muratus del Mur' date='11 August 2009 - 12:38 PM' timestamp='1249987133' post='39193']
What do you say about the new way of using principles based tokens (more skills/ve VS principles tokens) ?
[/quote]

i like it. if somebody cant afford token he still has a chance to beat a token rit with his stats. because if the token rit is strong principleswise less stats are in it. its balancing the token vs nontoken a lot more. at least for the average person with average principles. with insanly high principles it doesnt matter anymore anyway but i think its a step in the right direction

[Sparrhawk]

[quote name='Lifeline' date='16 August 2009 - 01:04 AM' timestamp='1250345086' post='39439']
i like it. if somebody cant afford token he still has a chance to beat a token rit with his stats. because if the token rit is strong principleswise less stats are in it. its balancing the token vs nontoken a lot more. at least for the average person with average principles. with insanly high principles it doesnt matter anymore anyway but i think its a step in the right direction
[/quote]

The only problem I find personally for the way tokens are changed is that I have few tokens now unless i use 0% they are basically worthless to me really if you have heavily laden tokens with the damage you can do stats matter little at al if you work on your principles and you dont even have to put vit in your rit, and it is quite strange how in defence tokens are always at 100% capacity even if your defence ritual has `100% vitality in it. But honestly I dont believe the changes has affected those who have mass tokens at all if anything its in there favour against those that will use a ritual that has little to no tokens in it.

[Udgard]

I would have to agree with that. Right now even without personal stats, the tokens alone are still strong enough to single-handedly determine the outcome of a fight, so it doesn't seem to matter much whether you have personal stats involved in the battle or not.

[Muratus del Mur]

so .. bugs:

- tokens are still at 100% when ritual set in defence is 100% (instead of beeing 0%)
- some tokens still give huge bonuses making them usable instead of personal stats.

first one will be fixed.
For the second one i need a token list with the tokens causing issues, and i also need 3 profile samples of what you all agree to be:

- "normal" stats
- "high/good" stats
- "huge" stats

so that i make sure what i consider to be good stats is also what you do.

[juntaozhu15]

In response to mur's post

I think "normal" stats (for mp5)would be around 1.5k attack, 800 def, 150 regen, and 100 initiative
"good" stats would be around 3k attack, 1.5k def, 350 regen, and 200 initiative
and "huge" stats would be 5k+ attack, 3k+ def, 700+ regen, and 400+ initiative

My profile is open atm so I would fall between good and huge depending on the stat measured, also if you are considering principles, normal would be around 1k all, good would be 5k, and huge would be anything over 10k imo, but there are those who have alot more than 10k in principles

[Shadowseeker]

I'd alter the value a bit..huge has no limit.

There's a few grinders who have endless stat points, though it's true that they need to work more to equal the output of tokens:

But if the cap suddenly ends that way it will be bothersome.

I'm talking about people who easily have 16k attack.

[Burns]

i'd rather think that 'normal' needs to be lowered...

taking a look at several mp5s profiles, i guess anything over 600 attack is a fairly good fighter, and a lot of them have way less...

though i'd say people who value their stats are around 500-800 normally

i'd start good around 2k atk, too...

and as Shadow has said, huge has no limits, they just usually don't want to give their actual figures away for some reason LOL

i'd start my search for huge with dst, though XD

some actual examples:
huge: http://magicduel.com/players/dst
really good: http://magicduel.com/players/*clock%20master*
fairly good: http://magicduel.com/players/phrog
hardly caring for battle: http://magicduel.com/players/*masterb*
just started mp5: http://magicduel.com/players/phantom%20orchid
acceptable mp4: http://magicduel.com/players/ladytwin

Edited August 24, 2009 by Burns

[Guybrush Threepwood]

With armor as it is now is defense really normally lower than attack by that much? I would think the average person's attack and defense are relatively close to each other. Also, wouldn't it seem prudent to give what we would think average good and huge principals are? I would offer suggestions, but I have no idea on this. I'd also like to point out for consideration that stats are split between all creatures in the ritual, whereas tokens just go ahead and add the same amount to each crittter regardless. If tokens were capped at 400 initiative, 400 initiative on each critter in a ritual would still be insane. Though I'm still more a fan of a decreasing function than a cap.

[Shadowseeker]

Actually attack and defense being close to each other is either a sign of selective training or the GGG..

I personally think that defense was so neglected due to a lot less fights giving those in the old days..(and the grinders I think of are meant with oldies)

And even if they do get nerfed, tokens will always unbalance. Even if they just add good stats, good stats+almost non existent stats of yourself= good strength overall.

No matter how you twist it, the top will always be dealing lots more damage.

[Guybrush Threepwood]

Tokens can be balanced. If they are nerfed properly they won't add insane stats that make personal stats useless. Will tokens still be necessary if you want to be the best? Sure, but they won't be the only thing you need, you'll still need strategery and good stats. Well, and good critters, all roughly equal. Currently tokens are so insane that you don't need strategy, good critters, or any stats at all.

[Udgard]

I agree that no matter what, the top will always do more damage. Yet, I also agree that token CAN be balanced.
I believe that tokens should make someone stronger, but not to single-handedly cause strategy and personal stats to be useless. It should make so that with equally well thought ritual, token users will have the advantage, but will still allow non token users to stand a good chance of beating a given ritual with the proper counter-rit.

[Shadowseeker]

Then let me ask, what point is there left to BUY tokens?

The reason so many bought them is not because they make creatures colorful (stacking too many looks a bit weird actually), but rather for the usage of it.

Now everyone wishes for them to basically become useless. That defies the reason in itself.

I tend to agree with Udgard more, however amongst the token users those who know of strategy are better in terms of fighting. After receiving brute power tuning it fine is a trouble as well.



The thing is, in terms of combat, following Udgards suggestion:

A tokened user with some decent principles and stats fighting against one with decent stats will result in the user with principles winning with a higher chance. To make it work that both are equal otherwise you need to REMOVE tokens basically, or making their values go to 0, something like 20 stats maximum or so...which is useless then, so no people will want tokens anymore.

Rustgolds are still powerful as well, but why are so little people complaining about it?

The only way to balance against tokens is to excessively stat train. And..auras, although unlike suggested tokens still the most important aura is somehow included in tokened fights..don't ask me how.

As for replacing stats with tokens, what's so bad about it? In the end principles are stats, and the tokens are just the method to channel it. If you asked me the whole add more slider less token influence is working, but ineffective: You punish the users of stats, and force more people to rely on tokens, the output is just way higher.

And if you lessen token values, nobody buys them anymore.

[Chewett]

Well, I would like to point out one of the main premises of the game.

A Young player can defeat an old player using strategy.

Unless this strategy is having a lot of money and buying tokens i dont see this is EVER possible.

That was one of the main interesting things that drew me to the game. It did work... before MD shop and all these tokens and premium crits

[Burns]

interesting thoughts...

we have stopped quarreling over rusties because they are expensive enough, if people really want to buy them, they can also use them... they don't show their true value to people without golemus-drachs anyway, and for those, you need to quest or trade... mainly trade, these days XD

tokens, on the other hand, come for as little as one (1) buck and have insane powers, in fact powers huge enough to destroy all the people who did pretty much stat-farming for a pretty long time...

and, seemingly a way to get done with grinders, they are now just making grinders a thousand times stronger than normally, so i guess a nice way to deal with the issue might be making tokens progressively weaker with active days...

like, i'm not sure about this since it just popped to my head, but how would it sound to make tokens start losing their power after day 150, with... say... half a percent a day, finishing in 0% (useless) tokens at day 350?
of course that puts the issue of uselessness to some players, and all players after some time, at hand, but to me it would seem like a solution to make the tokens do what they should, give players a chance against the old-age-grinders...

same could be thought about with stats (as mur is doing right now, i guess), starting to make them weaker after 500 atk, and ending in useless tokens at 5k atk (this is a random number i just came up with, don't hang me on that, please) to bring up the same effect, that i think to be the desired one...