The Caretakers

[awiiya]

[quote name='Fenrir Greycloth' date='14 September 2009 - 05:24 PM' timestamp='1252974242' post='41756']
We can not possibly judge who is capable and who is not. Sure some may appear to be, and others don't. But through out history those who appeared to be good leaders turned out not to be. And those who were forced into the role or fellupon it were the best.
[/quote]

That is a huge generalization that I don't necessarily agree with. I would recommend you soften your absolutes, because there is always an exception.

Khalazdad, for example, was not forced, and is known as one of the best leaders. Tarquinus, likewise, worked hard for his position as leader, and I think we can agree he does it well.

There are examples going against you in the opposite direction too. If you look far far back in the announcements, you will see that the first alliances were given to a number of people. I believe that will qualify as "forced into the role or fellupon." Where are the majority of those leaders and their alliances today? No where to be seen.

Other people that were forced into roles: the early LHOs, a good portion of whom no longer play.

In conclusion, watch your generalizations, because nothing is all black or all white.

Awi

[Fenrir Greycloth]

Was Making a point. There are very few absolutes and barely any of this has anything to do with Alliances.

[awiiya]

[quote name='Fenrir Greycloth' date='14 September 2009 - 07:56 PM' timestamp='1252983363' post='41765']
Was Making a point. There are very few absolutes and barely any of this has anything to do with Alliances.
[/quote]

Then I suggest you make your point accurately, and without holes. Otherwise, who can agree with you, or take you seriously?

And I think it does, actually. Alliances require leaders, and leaders as you so aptly stated depend a lot on how they are chosen, and cannot be judged purely on how good of a leader they are perceived.

Awi

[Udgard]

[quote name='awiiya' date='15 September 2009 - 09:07 AM' timestamp='1252980449' post='41762']

There are examples going against you in the opposite direction too. If you look far far back in the announcements, you will see that the first alliances were given to a number of people. I believe that will qualify as "forced into the role or fellupon." Where are the majority of those leaders and their alliances today? No where to be seen.

Other people that were forced into roles: the early LHOs, a good portion of whom no longer play.

[/quote]
IMO, being not around anymore is not a sign of good/bad leadership. People can do a good job and leave because of RL issue, or it's just a time for them to go on.

[awiiya]

[quote name='Udgard' date='14 September 2009 - 10:06 PM' timestamp='1252991196' post='41769']
IMO, being not around anymore is not a sign of good/bad leadership. People can do a good job and leave because of RL issue, or it's just a time for them to go on.
[/quote]


Hmm... that's a good point. There are some people who are just plain abismal at doing jobs appointed to them. An example that I know well... the calendar project has passed through at least 6 other people's hands, none of whom have done anything for it. But I suppose that isn't leadership, persay.

Awi

[Windy]

Okay...I admit it, I am pretty touchy when it comes to criticisms...forgive me. But when that is all you hear or get from the same critics, who can blame me. A pat on the back can go a long way.

Anyway...this is all getting off topic. I look forward to hearing what Mur's final say is when the time comes. When he does make his choice, it would be prudent for all of us to rally behind the winner and not let this become an ego trip. A new alliance is a chance for everyone to get together with their ideas and make it a great one.

[SageWoman]

[quote name='Leucretia' date='15 September 2009 - 08:05 AM' timestamp='1253019933' post='41790']
Okay...I admit it, I am pretty touchy when it comes to criticisms...forgive me. But when that is all you hear or get from the same critics, who can blame me. A pat on the back can go a long way.

Anyway...this is all getting off topic. I look forward to hearing what Mur's final say is when the time comes. When he does make his choice, it would be prudent for all of us to rally behind the winner and not let this become an ego trip. A new alliance is a chance for everyone to get together with their ideas and make it a great one.
[/quote]


I agree. The decision is now out of everyone's hands. Getting behind the chosen new leader is more productive than nay saying it here in the Forums. Good Luck and Best Wishes to whom ever is selected!

[dst]

I read all the posts and I came across some statements that I do not agree with (a bit offtopic maybe but it surely affects the subject).
First:

Phantasm:
[quote]I think this allinace will be the next "big thing", which is of course why there is so much controversy and debate.[/quote]
No, this is not the next big thing. This would have happened if Mur would have offered anything else (starting from a spell doc and ending with a drach). Just that the stakes are a bit higher. Who wouldn't want an ally of his own? Even I took one even if I was against of forming new alliances.


Fenrir:

[quote]Stop being offended over nothing. Chewett rarely plays md. Therefore he can not know what sort of actions ig we take. Tarq's rp is lightyears beyond anyone elses md. He is easily the best Rper in this game. No doubt about it.

I feel this alliance is whati need to grow and step up my game a bit with a challenge. Leading an alliance, even if it consists of three people, is not easy, rightChewett? Some struggle, others don't.[/quote]


Chewett plays MD. And he knows what is going on! Don't underestimate him!
Tarq's RP is unique mostly because of the language he uses (for me, a non-native English speaker it's something that catches my eyes in a second but most of the times I have no idea what he says . It's like the cat who looks in the calendar and it is amazed by it - romanian saying ). I personally like Z because I can understand what the man is saying . Also, as a side note: I like funny RP not the solemn one...

No, this ally will not help you grow. Will just (in your opinion) give you more power (as leader of one ally). There are lots of challenges in MD.

Oh...and stop asking for Chew's approval. Sucking up is not a challenge!

[Raven]

[font="Courier New"]Caretakers as a group live in four ways. Three arts: demonology, witchcraft, occult. Each one of those arts presenting their purpose, their task and their role. Demonology as knowledge of the people, beings and any other strange phenomena in the land connected with it. Witchcraft as irrepressible style of living as it promotes simple, practical way of living amongst the ruins and most importantly stimulating intellect. And as last art, Occult, simply meaning "hidden" presenting the way certain activities will be held and referring to all unreported or unsolved crimes that can be regarded as occult. Opposite to the three arts is worldly-minded way of living of mercenaries in which best and most reasonable offer will receive services.

[center][img]http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn57/Raven47Pro/struct.jpg[/img][/center]

The facts in nature are the foundation out of which all consciousness and knowledge grow. Science is the outgrowth of these facts through careful investigation and study. Revelation is facts derived from the inner-consciousness—intuition—which is allied to the cause-world and is cognizant of the mind from which it originated

Revelation united with science gives a substantial foundation for philosophy which is the proper outgrowth of science and revelation.

Rituals that are to be studied and in most cases preformed are: cultural, spiritual, sexual and psychological rituals; which can in many cases overlap. Any new rituals (customarily-repeated act or series of acts) in the lands themselves will be documented and kept by Caretakers. Few examples of rituals are rituals of personal cleansing, calling and satisfying the dead, shielding, and sacrificing and many others.

Ranks (each rank will be occupied by two people and depending on various situations single rank can be given to most of people. Example: In case of war there can be more people for fighting and more people dedicated to gathering information. First nobody would have defined rank but would need to prove himself/herself that he/she is able to do task of that rank or at least present past deeds that confirm their words.):

 Dark Night of the Soul (warriors, defenders, military strategists)
 Dreamer (rituals, researches and other various tasks)
 Black/White witch (fully dedicated to rituals)
 Lost Soul (bard, a poet, one to write chants)
 Banisher (diplomat)


This alliance would be linked to tribunals because lands of the east is a land with plenty of marks by an older civilization, many terrible deeds had to be done to ruin such a city and city as such is perfect to be inhabited once again by people that don't see only spiritual value but also material.[/font]

[Chewett]

[quote name='Leucretia' date='15 September 2009 - 02:05 PM' timestamp='1253019933' post='41790']
Okay...I admit it, I am pretty touchy when it comes to criticisms...forgive me. But when that is all you hear or get from the same critics, who can blame me. A pat on the back can go a long way.

Anyway...this is all getting off topic. I look forward to hearing what Mur's final say is when the time comes. When he does make his choice, it would be prudent for all of us to rally behind the winner and not let this become an ego trip. A new alliance is a chance for everyone to get together with their ideas and make it a great one.
[/quote]

If you get alliance leader, i recommend learning to deal with critisim a little better, No offense but really insulting someone back isnt a valid response. And you will get critisim as a ally leader.


[quote name='SageWoman' date='15 September 2009 - 02:23 PM' timestamp='1253020993' post='41792']
I agree. The decision is now out of everyone's hands. Getting behind the chosen new leader is more productive than nay saying it here in the Forums. Good Luck and Best Wishes to whom ever is selected!
[/quote]

Well its not really lol, Mur asked for our opinions, i say we should keeping giving them

[quote name='dst' date='15 September 2009 - 03:31 PM' timestamp='1253025089' post='41798']
Oh...and stop asking for Chew's approval. Sucking up is not a challenge!
[/quote]

And sucking up to me has no benifits, As everyone have already said i dont play nor do i have any power

[Fenrir Greycloth]

[quote name='Raven' date='15 September 2009 - 10:32 AM' timestamp='1253025163' post='41799']
[font="Courier New"]Caretakers as a group live in four ways. Three arts: demonology, witchcraft, occult. Each one of those arts presenting their purpose, their task and their role. Demonology as knowledge of the people, beings and any other strange phenomena in the land connected with it. Witchcraft as irrepressible style of living as it promotes simple, practical way of living amongst the ruins and most importantly stimulating intellect. And as last art, Occult, simply meaning "hidden" presenting the way certain activities will be held and referring to all unreported or unsolved crimes that can be regarded as occult. Opposite to the three arts is worldly-minded way of living of mercenaries in which best and most reasonable offer will receive services.

[center][img]http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn57/Raven47Pro/struct.jpg[/img][/center]

The facts in nature are the foundation out of which all consciousness and knowledge grow. Science is the outgrowth of these facts through careful investigation and study. Revelation is facts derived from the inner-consciousness—intuition—which is allied to the cause-world and is cognizant of the mind from which it originated

Revelation united with science gives a substantial foundation for philosophy which is the proper outgrowth of science and revelation.

Rituals that are to be studied and in most cases preformed are: cultural, spiritual, sexual and psychological rituals; which can in many cases overlap. Any new rituals (customarily-repeated act or series of acts) in the lands themselves will be documented and kept by Caretakers. Few examples of rituals are rituals of personal cleansing, calling and satisfying the dead, shielding, and sacrificing and many others.

Ranks (each rank will be occupied by two people and depending on various situations single rank can be given to most of people. Example: In case of war there can be more people for fighting and more people dedicated to gathering information. First nobody would have defined rank but would need to prove himself/herself that he/she is able to do task of that rank or at least present past deeds that confirm their words.):

 Dark Night of the Soul (warriors, defenders, military strategists)
 Dreamer (rituals, researches and other various tasks)
 Black/White witch (fully dedicated to rituals)
 Lost Soul (bard, a poet, one to write chants)
 Banisher (diplomat)


This alliance would be linked to tribunals because lands of the east is a land with plenty of marks by an older civilization, many terrible deeds had to be done to ruin such a city and city as such is perfect to be inhabited once again by people that don't see only spiritual value but also material.[/font]
[/quote]


I really like this idea, Raven.

[Windy]

[quote name='Fenrir Greycloth' date='15 September 2009 - 10:19 AM' timestamp='1253027989' post='41802']
I really like this idea, Raven.
[/quote]


One word...WOW!

[Guybrush Threepwood]

Fenrir:
And those who were forced into the role or fellupon it were the best.



So should Mur just give it to some person who isn't applying? *looks slanty eyed* I remove my application.

Jut kidding, but seriously, I don't see your point, after all, you are attempting to get this leadership position, clearly everyone posting here trying to get this leadership position is ALSO trying to get this leadership position. (Redundant, but...) So is this quote not backing Pipstickz statement that no one here is fit*? Edit: (*For the position.)

Edited September 15, 2009 by Guybrush Threepwood

[Kafuuka]

I guess Fenrir meant that the desire to be a leader is completely unrelated to leadership qualities. Which is contradicting the idea that people like what they are good at. eg I like science and am good at it, but I hate athletics and doubt I would even get to the finish line of a marathon. One possible element that plays into this is corruption. Between those that want power and those that have power thrust upon them, we believe the latter to be less corruptible.

[phantasm]

I think alot of us are jumping to conclusions. There is only one way to know if someone is a good leader. Have to put them in and give them a try. I think Mur is looking more for an idealogy as much as a leader. Leaders can be changed, idealogy is much harder to do so. With the alliance Granos has formed, it seems that the Caretakers will be the more headstone and seen alliance. Granos will be busy in the background doing his thing:D.

You hear two ways of things usually..leaders are born not made and leaders are made not born. I think it is a combination of the two. Some people are born with the strive to help others in their life's journey. Some are born with the adaptivity to follow and learn. Either can be leaders, but as to who the better leader is all depends. Someone who is born to lead may learn horrid things and become an evil person corrupted by greed and outside forces, while the person born to follow and learn, learns that sometimes they must lead. Of course I could go on, and on, and on, and on, and on, but then you all would fall asleep. My point is that noone really knows for sure who will be the best leader for the job. We can only hope that the overall best will be for the alliance moreso than any one persons ambition, or desires. *edit spelling*

Edited September 15, 2009 by phantasm

[Pipstickz]

[quote name='Kafuuka' date='15 September 2009 - 02:12 PM' timestamp='1253045524' post='41814']
I like science and am good at it, but I hate athletics and doubt I would even get to the finish line of a marathon. One possible element that plays into this is corruption. Between those that want power and those that have power thrust upon them, we believe the latter to be less corruptible.
[/quote]

Of course there are those gifted few who can do anything relatively well, but isn't the best at any of them, so really, how would you judge from that?

Anyways, would the Caretakers not be working with Granos's alliance? That would mean, I think, it'd have to be someone who at least knew him enough to be able to deal with him xD

[Chewett]

[quote name='Raven' date='15 September 2009 - 03:32 PM' timestamp='1253025163' post='41799']
[font="Courier New"]Caretakers as a group live in four ways. Three arts: demonology, witchcraft, occult. Each one of those arts presenting their purpose, their task and their role. Demonology as knowledge of the people, beings and any other strange phenomena in the land connected with it. Witchcraft as irrepressible style of living as it promotes simple, practical way of living amongst the ruins and most importantly stimulating intellect. And as last art, Occult, simply meaning "hidden" presenting the way certain activities will be held and referring to all unreported or unsolved crimes that can be regarded as occult. Opposite to the three arts is worldly-minded way of living of mercenaries in which best and most reasonable offer will receive services.[center][img]http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn57/Raven47Pro/struct.jpg[/img][/center]The facts in nature are the foundation out of which all consciousness and knowledge grow. Science is the outgrowth of these facts through careful investigation and study. Revelation is facts derived from the inner-consciousness—intuition—which is allied to the cause-world and is cognizant of the mind from which it originatedRevelation united with science gives a substantial foundation for philosophy which is the proper outgrowth of science and revelation.Rituals that are to be studied and in most cases preformed are: cultural, spiritual, sexual and psychological rituals; which can in many cases overlap. Any new rituals (customarily-repeated act or series of acts) in the lands themselves will be documented and kept by Caretakers. Few examples of rituals are rituals of personal cleansing, calling and satisfying the dead, shielding, and sacrificing and many others. Ranks (each rank will be occupied by two people and depending on various situations single rank can be given to most of people. Example: In case of war there can be more people for fighting and more people dedicated to gathering information. First nobody would have defined rank but would need to prove himself/herself that he/she is able to do task of that rank or at least present past deeds that confirm their words.): Dark Night of the Soul (warriors, defenders, military strategists) Dreamer (rituals, researches and other various tasks) Black/White witch (fully dedicated to rituals) Lost Soul (bard, a poet, one to write chants) Banisher (diplomat)This alliance would be linked to tribunals because lands of the east is a land with plenty of marks by an older civilization, many terrible deeds had to be done to ruin such a city and city as such is perfect to be inhabited once again by people that don't see only spiritual value but also material.[/font]
[/quote]

I must have missed this, I really like the idea and i think Raven would be a good leader

PLEASE NOTE: i said think. meaning its my opinion and you cant attack me for that. And as we have all agreed my opinion doesnt matter so please dont start calling me pompus, arrogant and a nazi again.

[zalabar]

I think I will try my hand
While I do not have any Ideas at hand
the thought of showing ideas is true,
But I Favor Ravin's idea, For Soosth. (old knight saying)

I will run the edge for leader
although my chances, slim.
I only hope I am worthy.
to take on a role.


Tribunal, lands of the east is an intriguing place, many hidden meanings, many things yet to be revealed.
I would not propose a way to go for this alliance, aside that it is not as dark as Raven or Phantasm proposes,
I like what the others have said, a place to learn, to remember, A place to think, and let out minds wander.

I only wonder.
Lands of the East,
what Shall our eyes feast upon?

[Peace]

I have seen some really good applications for the position. Most of you have what it needs to be a leader. Others do not. Yet when not even being in that position of a leader and simply stating your wish to become one, draws critism.

And since we were asked for our opinions on the subject, I must say that so far (that is merely my opinion, don't stone me for it) I like Raven's idea and Handy's if one would apply with such a structure.

[Pipstickz]

Personally, I think Raven's going to get it, mostly because he's experienced in MD. He worked up to RPC (or didn't work...I wasn't there xD), so I'd assume he'll be able to get this, too. I'd still be kind of sad to see him getting the alliance, because I want to see someone new out there with the rest of them.

[Fenrir Greycloth]

I really like Raven's idea as well, but I also agree with Pipsticks. Lets get some new blood into the alliances. Raven has led an alliance before, succeeded to a degree, and moved on. He did well. Raven has been around for a long time and would have a good following.

However, we can't just keep recycling the same leaders as we add new alliances and factions. I would like to see new(er) individuals get the leadership, as they would definitely have fresher ideas. My application is perfectly suitable to be led by me, or another. I do not have to be the leader, but as it was my idea, I know more about it than others. BUT another leader is perfectly acceptable.

[Guybrush Threepwood]

I am confused, maybe slightly. Who is it we think ought to be in charge of this? Those who applied are not experienced enough, Raven has too much. So, uh, who are we pulling for? Frankly, I couldn't care less about the WHO in charge, and am more interested in the idea, though I suppose who does matter to a degree.

[Fenrir Greycloth]

The idea matters more than the person presenting it, true. But other considerations must be accounted for as well.

[Chewett]

Well it seems the veterns have no problem with Raven being the Leader wheras the newer people like Fenrir would prefer someone knew. Its the simple politics of that the people who dislike the idea of raven going ahead and having the alliance are the people who are newer and want the alliance

If i was running i would likely say it should be an rpc, Yet i am not and think that as long it is someone who is trustworthy enough that has proven themselves to be a calm player and not have any, for example silence offences, then go ahead.

Even if fenrir had proposed the idea that raven has i would like it, since it is the idea and not the player. Its a good mix of the old unknown and something that would sit sidebyside with Granos' Alliance

[Pipstickz]

What, don't I count as a veteran? xD