Item Swapping

[Sasha Lilias]

[color="#0000FF"]Recently I have been told, as have others, that trading items amongst accounts is considered alt abuse. Why?

I see it like this:

[list]
[*]We bought coins by selling OUR creatures or in the MDshop with OUR money.
[*]We then use those coins to buy items or to be used for other things e.g. Quests.
[*]Items are created due to either your role or because you use the raw items, that YOU bought with YOUR coins or creatures, and used q wishpoint that YOU earnt to create the item.
[/list]
All in all I think it is silly that we are not allowed to swap our own items among accounts, when it was bought/made by our coins/creatures/trades.

I may get grief for writing this but it is how I feel.

Thankyou

~Sasha Lilias~
(Please try to post why it should or should not be counted as alt abuse, rather than just saying yes or no.)[/color]

Edited July 2, 2010 by Sasha Lilias

[Burns]

different accounts - different things.
You can't go and say that you own different accounts and then shove things from a to b because it's more convenient there, for sake of rp, or trade.
Different accounts accquired it, therefore it belongs to different accounts. Even when the same player sits behind both.

That's how i see it.

[Mr Mystery]

Meh, vote yes when suppose to be no.. i was blind.

Well we basically are giving it "out" to other people( if its for a quest). The benefit of other people can be seen as greater then your own. What we get is some thanks, good job. These are not physical objects. Whereas the other party actually get something.

[Sasha Lilias]

[quote name='Burns' date='02 July 2010 - 05:15 PM' timestamp='1278090928' post='63189']
different accounts - different things.
You can't go and say that you own different accounts and then shove things from a to b because it's more convenient there, for sake of rp, or trade.
Different accounts accquired it, therefore it belongs to different accounts. Even when the same player sits behind both.

That's how i see it.
[/quote]
That does not make it alt abuse though. YOU still own the item. Im bringing this up because I use coins from other accounts FOR my quests.

[Udgard]

Meh.. accidentally voted yes when I wanted to vote no as well..

We, the player, own the items, not our main, not our alts, that's how I see it. Of course, others might have different opinion, but I don't see any problem with it, really.

[awiiya]

To me, you're right that it is harmless behavior for one person to trade items between their accounts, if they have a good reason.

However, I think the bigger issue is what about those that want to hide the items they have (to avoid being on the top item owner list). I would be annoyed if Shape Shifter suddenly made 36 alts and gave an item to each of them, and then vanished.

So I think it's a fine sacrifice, because in truth I can't imagine anyone not being able to get around this rule. You have friends, do you not?

Awi

[Kafuuka]

It's a grey zone. If you allow some forms of exchange between alts, people will always use the vagueness to justify other sorts of exchange which were not intended.
Plus your premises are wrong: [i]Items are created due to either your role or because you use the raw items, that YOU bought with YOUR coins or creatures, and used q wishpoint that YOU earnt to create the item.[/i]
That is not complete. I know there were at least two occasions on which large amounts of items were distributed randomly among players who were online or idle. There's no buying or earning there, just pure luck. Furthermore if you know how to solve the broken pattern puzzle once, you know how to solve it again; that's one free WP per alt. There's also the WP for days thing that might be implemented one day, that'd mean another WP per alt that can be acquired by logging in only.

How do you plan on watching people whether they are farming creature age for themselves or for quest purposes?

What do you have to say against a previous rebuttal: creating a good quest with nice rewards will bring fame and thus benefit towards your main.


I know that it is taxing on quest creators to have to gather enough WP to get the features, then learn to use them, then gather WP codes or creatures or funds etc... but I also know human nature implies several people will try to push things into the grey zone if you declare quest purposes to be white.

[Sasha Lilias]

[quote name='Kafuuka' date='02 July 2010 - 06:14 PM' timestamp='1278094463' post='63196']

That is not complete. I know there were at least two occasions on which large amounts of items were distributed randomly among players who were online or idle. There's no buying or earning there, just pure luck. Furthermore if you know how to solve the broken pattern puzzle once, you know how to solve it again; that's one free WP per alt. There's also the WP for days thing that might be implemented one day, that'd mean another WP per alt that can be acquired by logging in only.[/quote]

The items are still yours, even if given to you by luck. The puzzle is very hard to solve but yes once someone has solved it once they can most likely solve it again, though alot of people solve it through luck. Either way the wishpoint is still yours because you earnt it.
Then theirs the active days...so what if you only have to log in? You are gaining a reward because you are an active vet. I am sure there will be some sort of reward system in place, like with the vet medals.

[Kafuuka]

[quote name='Sasha Lilias' date='02 July 2010 - 08:29 PM' timestamp='1278095394' post='63198']
The items are still yours, even if given to you by luck. The puzzle is very hard to solve but yes once someone has solved it once they can most likely solve it again, though alot of people solve it through luck. Either way the wishpoint is still yours because you earnt it.
Then theirs the active days...so what if you only have to log in? You are gaining a reward because you are an active vet. I am sure there will be some sort of reward system in place, like with the vet medals.
[/quote]
So if i log in, and "work" to recruit a dozen elementals, then wait for five months and then transfer them to another account, that should be legal. Of course getting elementals requires only patience and dedicated logging in every so often to 'check' upon them. But that's okay, you recruited them with the VP and VE that was yours.

I seem to recall accounts with names ala storageA through Z being created the day CTC was implemented. And banned three months later for obvious reasons.

[Sasha Lilias]

[quote name='Kafuuka' date='02 July 2010 - 06:39 PM' timestamp='1278095960' post='63199']
So if i log in, and "work" to recruit a dozen elementals, then wait for five months and then transfer them to another account, that should be legal. Of course getting elementals requires only patience and dedicated logging in every so often to 'check' upon them. But that's okay, you recruited them with the VP and VE that was yours.

I seem to recall accounts with names ala storageA through Z being created the day CTC was implemented. And banned three months later for obvious reasons.
[/quote]
If thats what they wish to do, then yes. They recruited them so they are their own creatures. Whats the difference between selling them anyway? Except from you get profit from what you do.

Anyway, I was talking about items, as you can see by the topic name. So lets pelase keep to topic

[Sharpwind]

It's alt abuse

If you allow item and coin swapping between alt accounts
then one can create several alts and
get Mur's promotion for new players several times
vote for free credits several times
Then bring everything on it's main account directly (coins) or indirectly (buying things from others from one account and transfering the item to the main and then either keep it or sell it back for coins)
All in all if you allow item coin swapping between alts there are numerous ways to benefit from your main and of abuse

I actually see no true reason to allow this other than abuse (If you want all things in one account buy them from that one)

Edited for clarification

Edited July 2, 2010 by Sharpwind

[Pipstickz]

Alt abuse is usually defined as obtaining something you couldn't get if you didn't have alts.

Say Account1 makes Account2. The player votes for free credits every day on both of them, and then buys coin items from the MDShop, and transfers all of the coins to Account1. The player has effectively doubled their funds. This is alt abuse, because without the extra account voting, Account1 wouldn't have double the coins.

Say Account2 has a rare creature that it got as a gift, and sells it for a bunch of silver, then gives it all to the main. It's the same thing as above.

If Account1 gives Account2 a creature, and then decides to sell the creature instead of using it, and has the buyer give the silver to Account1, it is still alt abuse, but not as bad, in my opinion, but it is still basically using Account2 as creature storage.

Yey for examples.

PS: If you think talking about creatures is off-topic, then imagine a similar situation with items instead. Horray.

[Chewett]

Ledah got A punishment for EXATLY this,

Alt abuse is benifiting one account, with help from another.

The question is, Can you get those coins on your main? The answer is most definately no, because you are probably at the reset limit, or dont want to reset.

You have done this before, again and again, and i am surprised you havent been banned, Poor Ledah, and you getting away with it.

[Chewett]

Note:

This topic came about after me telling her its alt abuse

her response was

RE:Alts?
How is it?
If Mur tells me off for it then I shall send it back.

The entire position needs to be cleared up, because sasha is the kind of person who will keep abusing until its been explicitly denied. Eitherway we need to know if its allowed, But considering all the bans that have been given regarding sending items to alts, i doubt Mur allows it.

[Fyrd Argentus]

I see one exception I would like -- credits, bought with real money -- ought to be transferable between alt accounts down to single-credit amounts.

Imagine you decide on a change of character and have $100 sitting on an account you no longer use..... discouraging.

[Guest]

[quote name='Fyrd Argentus' date='03 July 2010 - 04:23 PM' timestamp='1278170629' post='63268']
I see one exception I would like -- credits, bought with real money -- ought to be transferable between alt accounts down to single-credit amounts.

Imagine you decide on a change of character and have $100 sitting on an account you no longer use..... discouraging.
[/quote]

In an ideal situation, I would agree with this. If such a thing could be coded to distinguish between bought credits and those gained by free credit voting, promotions and credit rewards from quests and so on, then it would work in theory. However, it might be difficult to do in practice and this, again, might lead to abuse by some.

I would also advise against putting such a lot of money into an account unless you are sure you are going to use it.

[Sharpwind]

[quote name='Fyrd Argentus' date='03 July 2010 - 04:23 PM' timestamp='1278170629' post='63268']
I see one exception I would like -- credits, bought with real money -- ought to be transferable between alt accounts down to single-credit amounts.

Imagine you decide on a change of character and have $100 sitting on an account you no longer use..... discouraging.
[/quote]

You paid for credits in that account and you got them, you bought things with them and played with them
no longer using that account is your choice

My point is
wanting refund every time you feel like is abusing towards the game
and transferring credits and coins between alts is and remains alt abuse

[Grido]

i have to say i skipped most of this thread, it's late

not entirely sure why i always have to repeat this, but [b]any interaction past talking between your alts in game is alt abuse [/b]different things are different levels, but all other actions are.

I saw you post about the person buying the things or whatever, but the thing is, you're meant to be playing your accounts seperately, as different entities, not as one big conglomerate. To share your items or whatever between your alts is treating them as one whole, rather than independantly.

Alts are independant or each other.

[Sasha Lilias]

[quote name='Chewett' date='03 July 2010 - 11:01 AM' timestamp='1278154878' post='63249']
Note:

This topic came about after me telling her its alt abuse

her response was

RE:Alts?
How is it?
If Mur tells me off for it then I shall send it back.
[/quote]

I don't see why you have to bring up personal conversations. Is it helping you prove your point?
I started this topic to see how many other people think that it should( or shouldn't be) called alt abuse.
Im sad that you had to resort to bringing in a personal coversation as this has lowered my opinion of you now... though you probably won't care.

[Kafuuka]

[quote name='Sasha Lilias' date='05 July 2010 - 02:11 PM' timestamp='1278331885' post='63425']
I don't see why you have to bring up personal conversations. Is it helping you prove your point?
I started this topic to see how many other people think that it should( or shouldn't be) called alt abuse.
Im sad that you had to resort to bringing in a personal coversation as this has lowered my opinion of you now... though you probably won't care.
[/quote]
Oh come on... you stated at first that others have already said that it is alt abuse in your first post. That 'personal conversation' is hardly personal and it's not like you've been less of an ignorant person in this thread than in that conversation. I stated two objections which you haven't even tried to refute; I refuted your premises and in return I'm told I should stay on topic? Worse you even explained why I actually was on topic.. and now you're trying to play the victim?

At this point I am very inclined to believe Chewett when he says this thread is not about asking a question to the community and being open to debate. Instead you're aiming for confusion, enough so that you can, against all odds, say you didn't know what you did was wrong.

[Chewett]

[quote name='Sasha Lilias' date='05 July 2010 - 01:11 PM' timestamp='1278331885' post='63425']
I don't see why you have to bring up personal conversations. Is it helping you prove your point? I started this topic to see how many other people think that it should( or shouldn't be) called alt abuse. Im sad that you had to resort to bringing in a personal coversation as this has lowered my opinion of you now... though you probably won't care.
[/quote]

I know you have issues with me telling you not to abuse alts, and me disabling your forum alts because mur explitely stated people were NOT to have forum alts, But please dont hold the fact that i have done what mur asked, Against me. Nor does your opinion of me matter to this topic at all. If you didnt relise i dont care how you all think of me, Im going to be myself and reap what i sow.

This is plain and simply about if you are allowed to abuse your alts, or whether we foroget about all the previous cases and allow you to.

As i have said before, this will only be cleared up when Mur states the rules, Since everyone disagrees what the rules actually are.

Edited July 5, 2010 by Chewett

[Sasha Lilias]

[quote name='Kafuuka' date='05 July 2010 - 01:31 PM' timestamp='1278336699' post='63432']
Oh come on... you stated at first that others have already said that it is alt abuse in your first post. That 'personal conversation' is hardly personal and it's not like you've been less of an ignorant person in this thread than in that conversation. I stated two objections which you haven't even tried to refute; I refuted your premises and in return I'm told I should stay on topic? Worse you even explained why I actually was on topic.. and now you're trying to play the victim?

At this point I am very inclined to believe Chewett when he says this thread is not about asking a question to the community and being open to debate. Instead you're aiming for confusion, enough so that you can, against all odds, say you didn't know what you did was wrong.
[/quote] I have replied to both your comments and then said we should stay on the topic(Items)for I did not have anything else to say to your comments. I do not bare grudges and I do not carry things on.
As for the personal conversation, it was one. I did not post it on the forums and I did not name anyone. I am not the only person that was against item trading considered as "Alt abuse". I had seen it in chat from someone also, THAT was the reason I made this topic, so that I could see if others were against the idea. Please try and get you facts straight.
[quote name='Chewett' date='05 July 2010 - 03:42 PM' timestamp='1278344523' post='63437']
I know you have issues with me telling you not to abuse alts, and me disabling your forum alts because mur explitely stated people were NOT to have forum alts, But please dont hold the fact that i have done what mur asked, Against me. Nor does your opinion of me matter to this topic at all. If you didnt relise i dont care how you all think of me, Im going to be myself and reap what i sow.

This is plain and simply about if you are allowed to abuse your alts, or whether we foroget about all the previous cases and allow you to.

As i have said before, this will only be cleared up when Mur states the rules, Since everyone disagrees what the rules actually are.
[/quote]
As I said above I do not hold onto grudges. I even sent you a pm saying it was fine, to which you have not replied, and it is NOT just about me at all. Since when have I ever just done things for MY gain? I don't really care! I wanted to see if others care, which some of them do.

Edited July 5, 2010 by Sasha Lilias

[Kafuuka]

[quote name='Sasha Lilias' date='05 July 2010 - 08:18 PM' timestamp='1278353886' post='63457']
I have replied to both your comments and then said we should stay on the topic(Items)for I did not have anything else to say to your comments. I do not bare grudges and I do not carry things on.[/quote]
When did you comment on these objections then?
[i]How do you plan on watching people whether they are farming creature age for themselves or for quest purposes?
What do you have to say against a previous rebuttal: creating a good quest with nice rewards will bring fame and thus benefit towards your main.
[/i]

And you explained yourself why creature transfer and coins, which are by definition items, is the same: one can be traded for the other. Thus it was not off topic. Telling me to stay on topic for whatever reason besides me being off topic, is rude and generally a poor tactic.

[quote]
As for the personal conversation, it was one. I did not post it on the forums and I did not name anyone. I am not the only person that was against item trading considered as "Alt abuse". I had seen it in chat from someone also, THAT was the reason I made this topic, so that I could see if others were against the idea. Please try and get you facts straight.
[/quote]
Oh it was a conversation between two people, fine. If that makes it personal, then next time someone posts evidence of private chats about trades when someone is accused of theft, let's all say 'oh no, those conversations are personal,' and discard them as evidence. Would it have been different if Chewett had only said 'This topic came about after me telling her its alt abuse'? I don't think so.
And I do make a considerable effort to get my facts straight. I've read your old posts each time before answering a newer one, to check if something was brought up before. What I notice is that you are sad and disappointed in Chewett, but do not hold grudges against him. You also find it necessary to say you don't hold grudges against me... why? It does not relate to your goal of seeing who considers it alt abuse.

[Sasha Lilias]

[quote name='Kafuuka' date='05 July 2010 - 07:08 PM' timestamp='1278356919' post='63461']
You also find it necessary to say you don't hold grudges against me... why?
[/quote]
I have not said that I would hold grudges against you, all I have said is that I do not hold grudges.
[quote name='Kafuuka' date='05 July 2010 - 07:08 PM' timestamp='1278356919' post='63461']It does not relate to your goal of seeing who considers it alt abuse.[/quote]
Nor does arguing with you, it seems you only posted in this topic to start an arguement.

[Pipstickz]

This topic is ridiculous. Do we really need Mur to solve the problem? This is alt abuse, because without alts, you wouldn't have your items and coins.

If you had just kept quiet, you could've avoided some of the consequences, but because you just had to see if you were in the right, you've gotten yourself into more trouble. I suggest that we all stop this pointless arguing and just close the topic, as it's clear how the community feels (16 to 7 with a couple who clicked the wrong button.)