Sparring Grounds - Evolution

[(Zl-eye-f)-nea]

I'll ignore the unnecessary bits...

What I'm getting from this is that you are basically just saying you will shut down the sparring grounds and leave it as a place where people should use their common sense to set sparring rituals like in a real Dojo, and you are hoping that people go along with that.

If that isn't what you are saying, please explain it to an english speaker who knows what you mean so they can put it better or something, cuz right now i still don't have a clue what the reasoning behind this is, the stuff you say contradicts itself in each new post so I can only assume it is a language issue. I dunno. Maybe its just me, maybe everyone else understands 100%.

Z

[Shadowseeker]

Shrug..I say one more thing: I left, yes, but did people understand as to why I did so?

I don't think so. Because I left when I saw that the people in it could manage on their own "peer pressure" even if you want..and the occasional attacks they could shrug off. That's how I planned it, and it seemed to work- no big rule enforcing, no big whining, people learned to take things as they are.

My presence was mainly to ensure there is nobody who forcefully, continuously does things with evil intent from the start- Since I was apparently no longer needed, fine, I have better things to do with my time.

The fighting strength of people would sooner or later balance anyways, so I wait for that to happen..essentially to me you, Rhaegar, seem to take what I did, and pluck it apart.



We'll see how it ends. Since you said you have a base of people supporting you..why don't you tell us their names, and ask them to be on duty?

I'm watching. If not only because I handled things there before.

[Jubaris]

[quote name='(Zl-eye-f)-nea' date='10 July 2010 - 01:31 PM' timestamp='1278761472' post='63732']
I'll ignore the unnecessary bits...

What I'm getting from this is that you are basically just saying you will shut down the sparring grounds and leave it as a place where people should use their common sense to set sparring rituals like in a real Dojo, and you are hoping that people go along with that.

If that isn't what you are saying, please explain it to an english speaker who knows what you mean so they can put it better or something, cuz right now i still don't have a clue what the reasoning behind this is, the stuff you say contradicts itself in each new post so I can only assume it is a language issue. I dunno. Maybe its just me, maybe everyone else understands 100%.

Z
[/quote]


call it how you wish, minor or major re-editing (depending on the perspective), shutting down, turning on.
Difference is that there are no rules now (in my project I mean) but encouragements and discouragements. With previous state there were rules, made by players enforced on other players - while Calyx or Shadow were there (that alone can be questioned is it good or not), and after they're both gone from the place of maintaining the grounds, there is no one to enforce those rules (I realize that you wanted for it to last at length Shadow, just as I would like this to work at length, or even your SparringGrounds/Calyx's Dojo to work at length - as long as it does something, but one of my points is that current Sparring Grounds doesn't work. I see people being afraid of mp5 and complaining how they will get destroyed once they get there, with most of them not knowing to make a decent ritual - I witnessed a friend being impressed by rituals Burns made in Fighthing club, that friend was an aged mp5, few months less than a year. With this AMONG OTHER THINGS they would learn to fight, win and lose, and accept whatever the outcome is, and evolve. First step towards the "real" MD world.)


[quote name='Shadowseeker' date='10 July 2010 - 01:58 PM' timestamp='1278763110' post='63733']
Shrug..I say one more thing: I left, yes, but did people understand as to why I did so?

I don't think so. Because I left when I saw that the people in it could manage on their own "peer pressure" even if you want..and the occasional attacks they could shrug off. That's how I planned it, and it seemed to work- no big rule enforcing, no big whining, people learned to take things as they are.

My presence was mainly to ensure there is nobody who forcefully, continuously does things with evil intent from the start- Since I was apparently no longer needed, fine, I have better things to do with my time.

The fighting strength of people would sooner or later balance anyways, so I wait for that to happen..essentially to me you, Rhaegar, seem to take what I did, and pluck it apart.



We'll see how it ends. Since you said you have a base of people supporting you..why don't you tell us their names, and ask them to be on duty?

I'm watching. If not only because I handled things there before.
[/quote]

do not missinterpret me, I did not judge your leaving. It was actually quite nice to see one of the strongest fighters of MD "wasting" time at Marble Dale Park for such a time, and you did your job. But that's it, you did your job, now it's time to move on and let others to try to improve it (you do realize that the system isn't perfect and it can never be?! so why are so many of you trying to preserve every rule of dojo like its sacred?)

and yes there's a base of people that are supporting the idea, but in the way of approvement, not active participation since I want to do this with as less people involved (less dependence of general population. The idea is for it to work without staff.)

[Darigan]

So lemme see if I got this straight You want people to use common sense, You want people to be reasonable with their attacks and you want as little interference so theres no staff or anyone but yourself and your spells to balance this thing your trying to create....why not just set up shop as an mp6 with the current setting of asking for wins combine it with attacklock for repeat offenders and make the park into an actual training ground where the old vets like burns and dst and the others i see hanging around there now teaching the newbs how to set a decent rit. Heck I've actually seen dst offer to take losses true it was a short period of time but since everyone has seemingly migrated to the park toten has a point theres been less bickering and less bad rp which i would contribute more to grido making the park part of the lho schedule and burns moving there then to anything currently going on there all thats really needed to add to the current sg setup is a little teaching not a brand new setup.

[Shadowseeker]

Also, one thing..for all I know, you could have 2 mp3 following you and the rest cursing you...

Hypothetical situation, someone named Leda* comes in with mp3, mp4 alts, and intentionnaly disrupts this all...you have no staff there, and hope he will stop after you cast a few spells on him?

And..why should anyone set a rit like you suggest, if there is nobody showing a good example? Not even one you name as staff, who people know that they can attack him..and I'm not talking about alts here, but real players.

You also name progress of fighting..so, how does your setup change anything? The only difference is that the old place was to hit the idlers or ask (out of which surely some would have strong rits which I heard a few times: "oh wow nice rit" etc), while now you also have those who are not confident enough to fight well (for example those who only have aramors) to get shot down all the time if they stay there.

Unless you intend to give them spoilers and be like "to beat him do XXX, buy OOO at ZZZ, and level it." I really don't see how it would work, because those weak players would only be more discouraged...imagine you try to learn martial arts, but the first 3 times you go to a dojo or whatever you get brutally smashed down..would you really continue, unless you are a masochist?

[Yoshi]

Personally, the old sparring grounds was perfectly fine... I miss it >.>

[Mya Celestia]

[color="#8B0000"][font="Palatino Linotype"]There is something I'm still trying to understand. What will essentially make the park different from any other screen now? Interesting rituals? With the new fight set up, the rituals are becoming more interesting. An occasional spell happens in all the other screens. Weaklings will still get pounded by strong fighters.

Unless people are appointed to "run" things, the park will be seen by many as just another screen. The only difference is that there will be people complaining that someone isn't following the "rules".[/font][/color]

[Kafuuka]

1. The not contacting ShadowSeeker issue: well it wasn't nice. It wasn't particularly wise either, seeing how much controversy it rose, but hindsight is always easier. imo you've paid enough for that already.

2. The purpose. I'm a bit confused too. Do you want to change things now, or did you want to open discussion and change things afterwards? Do you want a zero maintenance thing? People seem to think SG worked for that. Do you want high maintenance? afaik the dojo worked well while it had enough staff, which is obviously it's weakness. Something inbetween? I think that'd be tricky. Perhaps keeping the SG as is but organizing Grasan Free Fridays would work.

3.
[quote name='Rhaegar Targaryen' date='07 July 2010 - 01:02 AM' timestamp='1278457328' post='63549']
My goal is to develop this as much as possible, and ultimately, we will be able to present the players possible paths in this realm (is it stat grinding, is it role playing, showing them who's where and where to go to start your self-made tasks), but that's it showing them possibilities and helping them understand the basis of this realm, imperative is for us not to force ANY opinion about possible paths nor influence them in any way.

I don't know what you all think of this and how much of you are willing to take part?
[/quote]
Role Play? I think that's a bit too much hay for your pitchfork. And technically, any interaction is a form of influencing. Showing people they have a choice they might not be aware of is influencing them.

[Jubaris]

uh, a lot of people to respond to. I hate when that happens

I'll start from Kafuuka.

and will start from the point under dot two

- the idea about starting this was to listen to constructive feedback of people, not sentimental complaints and biased conservative, political posts. in the meantime I noticed I ain't gonna get what I was expecting so went on to the testing phase, checking how would it exist in the period of week or two with a different set of rules (with any future changes being based on that). I also kinda lost most of my interest into MD and with the lack of time on it, sadly didn't manage to put myself enough into the project. Will see about that soon.
Now my idea about the long term would include no staff (and more concrete instructions on how should people behave over the grounds - no rules but simple instructions, it is based on people will they apply them or not) with the idea that every older player that has useful method to balance out players (mp3s and mp4s) to use it once in a while on their own will against stronger mp3/4 players who farm wins there/crush anyone on the sight preserving the idea of strength balance of mp3/4 players.
actually there was something like those "grassan free fridays" idea but with the ones who I spoke it was pushed away since that kind of rules would be complicated for the young to follow. (idea is the less rules the better)


3rd point.

yes role play. depends of your definition of role play. my definition of a role player would be a player who made some kind of role in the realm, that doesn't have to include blue star text, like, I don't know, Emerald Arcanix. He has a role within MB and with its organization, he is part of the council, but he doesn't RP in sense of "picking up flasks of beer" yet he is a role player to me.
it is subjective really I should have explained it straight away.

[Yoshi]

[quote name='Rhaegar Targaryen' date='10 July 2010 - 06:23 PM' timestamp='1278800611' post='63776']
....the idea about starting this was to listen to constructive feedback of people, not sentimental complaints and biased conservative, political posts. in the meantime I noticed I ain't gonna get what I was expecting so went on to the testing phase....
[/quote]


You just didn't like/accept the criticism you received. The sparring grounds were awesome, I don't even know the rules of what to do now, there's no direction, no basic rules that are easy to understand. The sparring grounds was an easy concept, easy to grasp and understand. What you did to it, I don't feel was for the best, but for the worse.

[apophys]

If several forumgoers (me included) have a hard time grasping the concept, how can you expect more of noobs?

The old SG boiled down to this: Don't attack without consent. Attack idlers freely.

Unless you can simplify your concept to something this brief, the project is at a large risk of failure.

Edited July 11, 2010 by apophys

[Chewett]

+1 to that idea also

From what i can try and grasp, it seems like you are allowed to do what you like? or is that totally wrong? because i cant imagine you would try and "renovate" something by removing its previous nice setup.

I think most people liked it how it was.

[Allyce]

[quote name='Yoshi' date='10 July 2010 - 03:52 PM' timestamp='1278777178' post='63752']
Personally, the old sparring grounds was perfectly fine... I miss it >.>
[/quote]


[quote name='apophys' date='11 July 2010 - 06:50 AM' timestamp='1278831029' post='63785']
If several forumgoers (me included) have a hard time grasping the concept, how can you expect more of noobs?

The old SG boiled down to this: Don't attack without consent. Attack idlers freely.

Unless you can simplify your concept to something this brief, the project is at a large risk of failure.
[/quote]

I'm agree with them, i mean I support Princ, but i think it'll be better if the rules remain as they were. i'm not very glad that everyone can attack me now whenever they want...

[Jubaris]

I will pause any project on this for a period of time. Btw I'm not a fan of democracy, but I do apply it when it comes to Community Projects.

I apologize if I made troubles with this.

I still think it would be better if what I had in mind took place but I really miscalculated my available time, nor I did prepare number of people to involve directly at the start so the community gets familiarized with the project and present it more clearly. My brother is currently in town and I'm mostly around with him, with going on vacation soon, I shouldn't have started something like this.

When I do find the time and will, hopefully to continue something like this, I will prepare volunteers before posting suggestions here, and ask for whole community to join in the project since the location that is talked about here is the real starting location of players and should be used wisely by all of us. The grounds project I started is also a desire of King Lifeline of Marind Bell which I am now part of, and will do my best to help.

The reason why I solo-ed on organizing this was mostly out of my belief that Marble Dale Park's Sparring Grounds were chaotic and often violated without its enforces, welcoming active changes, but it is clear that many still try to preserve it, and in any actions if so in the future about the grounds I will work on making something that would be fair enough for all parties or at "worst" just help those who wish to help the original Sparring Grounds in a way.

[Bronzometh]

well, I might have some ideas about how to improve and enforce MDP. Probably they are silly, maybe even illegal, but I will post them anyway:

How to enforce:
1.those who repeatedly break the rules, should be posted on another signpost, so that everyone knows. whoever see them in MDP will be free to attack them, and the newbies could run away, until the danger is gone.
2. If a signpost is too much, then there could be a group of volunteers who should be informed who are the rules breakers, and kill them whenever they enter MDP (I recommend using alts against them as well, if this is not considered alt abuse). But the newbies won't know who the rules breakers are, so they won't know when to run away, in case there is no one around to kill the rules breakers.
In both cases, some spells could help

How to improve: There could be a combination between the old SG and the SG that Rhaegar wants (I guess someone already suggested this). newbies can ask for certain rits to other ppl, and try to defeat them. again, alts could be useful (probably newbies will ask for certain rits that old players can't make because they don't have the crits - probably they only have maxed, or tokened crits, and the newbies would like to see if they can defeat some lower lvl crits, but alts could have more types of crits of different lvls - if this won't be considered alt abuse). Mentors should also encourage their adepts to learn fighting, maybe even give them tasks, to defeat certain rits, and maybe even provide them the target (again, alts could be useful, since most mentors are probably MP5). And this can be done without changing MDP rules.

[Shadowseeker]

No, using alts to kill them is abuse. And why bother if I could "kill" mp3, mp4 as an mp5 if I really wanted to anyways?

Anyways, as for the old SG...

It seems you misunderstand. The very attitude you showed was what I tried to remove. Dojo had that, and people were real whiny back then. SG is intended to be able to take a few hits here and there..only when someone does it repeatedly after being informed, and even if the wrath of the community is upon him he still does it- then there is punishment.

[Novato]

Well, before start anything sorry if you think that I should read something before and I didn't. Maybe I am not so new in this game to speak about the newbies, but I don't think that lose a lot is a problem (maybe it's just because many people really belive that they should keep the fighting balance at any cost). And I never saw a very powerfull player attack everone at the SG, idle or not.

What should really upset the newbies is "get" a lot of NEGATIVE xp and have much more xp in one creature than they need to upgrade to the maximum level.

I don't know what should be done, but many people is abusing (in my opinion) rituals that leave the loser with negative xp and it's an issue in mp3 and mp4.

[Shadowseeker]

As for that, that can be dealt with. If you get me proof of some players who did (screenshots of battlelogs and so on) that and (attempts of) talking (pms, in chat) with these people still didn't work, post them here or so.

[Chewett]

[quote name='Novato' date='20 July 2010 - 03:46 PM' timestamp='1279637205' post='64236']
Well, before start anything sorry if you think that I should read something before and I didn't. Maybe I am not so new in this game to speak about the newbies, but I don't think that lose a lot is a problem (maybe it's just because many people really belive that they should keep the fighting balance at any cost). And I never saw a very powerfull player attack everone at the SG, idle or not.

What should really upset the newbies is "get" a lot of NEGATIVE xp and have much more xp in one creature than they need to upgrade to the maximum level.

I don't know what should be done, but many people is abusing (in my opinion) rituals that leave the loser with negative xp and it's an issue in mp3 and mp4.
[/quote]

losing exp on creatures only effects you if you are trying to be the "best" in mp3/4 which is something uttery stupid considering mp3/4 is a learning stage, that you are not meant to stay at.

it just means you have to get more exp... hardly a challange when you have locations such as SG where you can suck all the exp you want.

[Novato]

"losing exp on creatures only effects you if you are trying to be the "best" in mp3/4 which is something uttery stupid considering mp3/4 is a learning stage, that you are not meant to stay at."

If mp3 and mp4 are not mean to stay, why there is in Wish Shop "Lower XP to zero
Useful to allow you to get more xp and avoid the xp cap. Doing that you will be able to gain more XP and upgrade more of your creatures and stats. You can request this only 2 times."??

Ok, you can't use forever, but if you use 2 times you can have 3 times the normal XP to your MindPower. If it is just a learning stage that you should not stay long, then it is logical and sane that you don't put anything that officially, protected by the rules, help you stay for a long time.

And, of course, who have wish point work hard and should have the reward, but there is other things to buy in Shop.


I don't want to upset anyone. But if something is wrong, I need to understand why, just say that it is wrong or that need to tell a spoiler to explain is not enought.

[Chewett]

[quote name='Novato' date='21 July 2010 - 12:36 AM' timestamp='1279669003' post='64266']
If mp3 and mp4 are not mean to stay, why there is in Wish Shop "Lower XP to zero
[/quote]

That wish is exceedingly useful at mp6 when it is very hard/impossible to lose exp, that helps you drop back down to mp5

[Pipstickz]

As far as I know, the Sparring Grounds has reverted to it's original rules...so there's really no reason to debate it any longer.

[Shadowseeker]

Left this open to see if there would be any other comments or so coming..apparently not.

Closing this then.