Discussion On Wishpoints

[Kyphis the Bard]

Fyrd Argentus has brought to my attention the difficulties he has faced in getting Wishpoints to reward for his quests. While he has been able to get them from three of the kings, which he is grateful for, it has been a struggle to do so.

The MDA Typically recruits the more creative members of the realm. However, with the situation as is, many who may otherwise join are reluctant to do so. The inability to get support from the four mainlands kings for quest rewards, a major creative outlet and method of giving back to the realm, prevents a lot of people I have attempted to recruit from considering joining.

While the MDA is not a mainland, it's work is focused on the whole community of MD, indiscriminately. We have had four alliances associated with the MDA: The Advertisers, responsible for encouraging people to come to MD and join the community; The Archivists, responsible for recording knowledge, theories, and ideas for people to have a better understanding of how MD works; The Legend Speakers, responsible for recording the histories of players exploits, and teaching the philosophies behind MD (the ones we know, at least); and the Crafters, now of Loreroot, responsible for creating the majority of items available in MD.
All of those roles are of benefit to the whole community, not just the MDA. However, with the current system for rewarding codes, it seems we are being discriminated against.

[b]Just to be clear, this is not about winning Wishpoints, but about getting codes to award.[/b]

I seek out creative minded people who are likely to flourish within the Legend Speaker Role when I recruit people. I am incredibly selective, and don't make offers lightly.
However, the kind of people who I recruit are also the sort of people who are interested in making interesting, and challenging quests for the benefit of the realm. For example, Fyrd's Road Rallies, which work hard to eliminate discrimination of internet speed and award large volumes of prizes; and the Large Scale quest I have been working on for the past year which deals heavily with social interaction.

I am award that the issue of WP awarding was discussed in March, and have read through the previous topic. However, of what was discussed, only the following two posts are fully relevant:
[url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/6673-about-wps-and-the-codes/page__st__8"]Yrthilian quotes Mur's directives on WP Code handling[/url]
[url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/6673-about-wps-and-the-codes/page__st__10"]Mur reiterates his stance on Land Allegiance, and its consequences[/url]
[Color="red"]Please do not discuss what that topic is about here, as it is for the most part not what I am discussing. The situation that prompted that topic no longer (as far as I know) exists.[/color]

I fully understand not giving WP codes to people of no land, or of a land with another king. However, I would like to hear from each of the four kings what their stance is on giving WP codes to members of the MDA specifically, to support quest creation.
I don't care if you haven't been asked, and I don't care [much] about your stance on other lands.
All I am interested in is a public statement from each of the kings saying if they would be willing to sponsor MDA citizens quests, and why or why not. This way, people will be better informed when asking for Wishpoint codes as to who to ask, and what they will need to do in advance to improve their chances.

[b]Just a reminder, this is not about Wishpoints themselves, but the codes (Which, unlike the Wishpoints, DO belong to the land)[/b]

Thankyou for your time,
Kyphis, Leader of the Legend Speakers

[u][b]Loreroot:[/b][/u]
[quote name='Firsanthalas' date='30 July 2010 - 11:57 PM' timestamp='1280494668' post='64789']
In general the only time I refuse WPs reward requests from someone is if:
[b]a:[/b] They should be getting the WPs from their own king
[b]b:[/b] I feel I am giving too many to this individual
[b]c:[/b] I feel the quest just doesn't warrant it
[b]d:[/b] If I am being asked after the fact (yes, I have been asked for WP rewards AFTER someone ran their quest)

I want to add that it is exceedingly rare that I refuse someone point blank (unless one or more of the above situations is true)
[/quote]
[u][b]Golemus Golemicarum:[/b][/u]
[quote name='Yrthilian' timestamp='1282909971' post='67132']
My policy on the WP's and their codes.

Most codes are for Golemus people running quests
But i will at time give code to non land people. I have done this many time
and as it is mentioned about i accept some quest and will support them and other
i wont. There is not clear cut selection process.

I put asside a small amount of WP's to be used by non land players
I have even run quets myself or puzzels that will give the player a WP or WP code
they get asked at the time if the want the code for use in quests of their own.

I believe i have mentioned this before on the forums on how i give out codes
and that i can be approached in all the diffrent form of contact that i have
let people know of.
[/quote]

Edited August 30, 2010 by Kyphis the Bard

[Mya Celestia]

[color="#8B0000"][font="Palatino Linotype"]Maybe what's needed here is an MDA Chief Librarian. Not with the same power as a king, but someone that can perhaps keep an eye on the MDA alliances as a whole. This person could be in charge of a certain number of wps or wp codes. The Chief could also coordinate with the kings for any needs the main lands require.

Just a thought.[/font][/color]

[Seigheart]

What about the Master Archivist?

Wouldn't that position suit what you are suggesting, Mya?

[Kyphis the Bard]

[quote name='Mya Celestia' date='30 July 2010 - 01:17 PM' timestamp='1280456245' post='64775']
[color="#8B0000"][font="Palatino Linotype"]Maybe what's needed here is an MDA Chief Librarian. Not with the same power as a king, but someone that can perhaps keep an eye on the MDA alliances as a whole. This person could be in charge of a certain number of wps or wp codes. The Chief could also coordinate with the kings for any needs the main lands require.

Just a thought.[/font][/color]
[/quote]
I would actually like to see that position made, and have in fact been working toward that goal for a very long time.
Being that the MDA is a neutral land, it should not have someone with anything like the power of a King. However, it has a high role within the realm, and does require someone to manage it to an extent.

That said, currently there are no people both capable or willing to fill the role at this point. While I would certainly love that role, I am by no means ready for it yet.

Part of the aim of this discussion is to identify the attitudes of the various kings towards collaborative work within the MDA. This topic is to serve as a springboard for further discussion, in a more private capacity, for how the MDA and the four mainlands can work together for the benefit of the whole MD community.

[I am Bored]

you might be able to get renavoid to step back up to his old post as chief archivist.....

Edited July 30, 2010 by I am Bored

[Pipstickz]

What's to stop someone from writing some neat stories, joining your alliance, getting WP codes, and then leaving without making a quest?

What I suggest is that if you do end up getting WP codes, either from a sponsor, or from Mur himself, that you only give them to people who have made a few quests already, and have convinced people to give them codes all on their own, so then you get people who are really dedicated, not just someone trying to bum some WP codes.


Sidenote: Kyphis, the best way to have a role or position "made", as you state it, is to do that role. Do you think Khalazdad became king of Necrovion by just sitting and waiting for Mur, or someone else to notice? Of course, the position of Master Archivist already exists, there's just nobody who's doing that at the moment. If you want it, be brave and take it, and if the community doesn't like it, they'll tell you.

Edited July 30, 2010 by Pipstickz

[Kyphis the Bard]

[quote name='Pipstickz' date='30 July 2010 - 05:02 PM' timestamp='1280469749' post='64779']
What's to stop someone from writing some neat stories, joining your alliance, getting WP codes, and then leaving without making a quest?
[/quote]
That has nothing to do with what is being discussed. This topic is not about getting Wishpoint codes given to the MDA for when they have quests, it is about finding out the kings stance on sponsoring quests that are already ready to run.
Since the MDA is not affiliated with any of the four main lands, it would be idiotic for someone to join it for the reason of getting WP's from the kings. I fully expect that any of the kings willing to show their support of the MDA Quest creators would exercise more scrutiny than they would for their own lands.
If anyone was going to be so selfish as to do that, they would join and drop one of the main lands.

Please stay on topic.

[quote name='Pipstickz' date='30 July 2010 - 05:02 PM' timestamp='1280469749' post='64779']
Sidenote: Kyphis, the best way to have a role or position "made", as you state it, is to do that role. Do you think Khalazdad became king of Necrovion by just sitting and waiting for Mur, or someone else to notice? Of course, the position of Master Archivist already exists, there's just nobody who's doing that at the moment. If you want it, be brave and take it, and if the community doesn't like it, they'll tell you.
[/quote]
I am fully aware of the way this all works, Pip. When I am ready for the role of Master Archivist, I will step up to it. However, I am currently not ready for that.
Also, the role described by Mya Celestia was an amalgamation of the old Master Archivist role and the new Kings role. If someone where to be in the old position of Master Archivist, as it used to be, the only difference would be that I would ask them to post this topic, instead of doing it myself.
However, this is completely offtopic.

Please stay on topic.

[Muratus del Mur]

the codes are given to the four lands. there wont be codes given to any other land,...BUT.. that means you should find ways against this restriction to sponsor those that deserve etc.

Most of the rules i put have two sides, you are missing one here. The wp code dispatch restrictions are there so that you people DO something about it in those few situations that stand out.

The kings will respect the things i asked them, no doubt, so ..how could you solve this? the kings have the right to do whatever they like with their resources too...

enough said, you have all the "tools" and rules you need

[Firsanthalas]

Sorry, but I am not sure that I follow. I have already given Fyrd WPs for rewards and agreed to give him some more. I am not at all happy with someone saying otherwise. In general the only time I refuse WPs reward requests from someone is if:
a: They should be getting the WPs from their own king
b: I feel I am giving too many to this individual
c: I feel the quest just doesn't warrant it
d: If I am being asked after the fact (yes, I have been asked for WP rewards AFTER someone ran their quest)

I want to add that it is exceedingly rare that I refuse someone point blank (unless one or more of the above situations is true)

On another note that was mentioned here. On the few occasions I was ever approached by the archives about doing anything historical or storywise for Loreroot, I was totally dissapointed at the lack of any follow through.

For the record I dislike when people make sweeping statements like this, which I feel are totally untrue, in my case at least.

[Kafuuka]

[quote name='Kyphis the Bard' date='30 July 2010 - 02:33 AM' timestamp='1280450003' post='64774']
Fyrd Argentus has brought to my attention the difficulties he has faced in getting Wishpoints to reward for his quests. While he has been able to get them from three of the kings, which he is grateful for, it has been a struggle to do so.
[/quote]
@Firsanthalas, the above quote doesn't say you did not give Fyrd WP codes. Possibly it was left vague so as not to target the one king that didn't give codes... for all we know that person might even been unable to establish contact with.

[quote]
All of those roles are of benefit to the whole community, not just the MDA. However, with the current system for rewarding codes, it seems we are being discriminated against.
[...]
However, the kind of people who I recruit are also the sort of people who are interested in making interesting, and challenging quests for the benefit of the realm. For example, Fyrd's Road Rallies, which work hard to eliminate discrimination of internet speed and award large volumes of prizes; and the Large Scale quest I have been working on for the past year which deals heavily with social interaction.
[/quote]
You and everybody in the tribunal and everybody who wants to remain independent. I could try to argue that the latter is a group of people who have strong principles and therefore more thrust worthy and good quest creators. I think that makes as much sense as a poet being good at creating quests...

Fyrd's road rallies don't merit WPs imo, although I have seen far worse quests been rewarded with a WP. Nonetheless they are an interesting example: the rallies have people who donate creatures to them and thus they have rewards, looking at the rally thread it even did have WPs... Similarly people sponsored the paper shaper contests, for which neither me nor any others of the original team seem to have time for anymore, with coins and creatures. And people do play quests even if there is no reward, as long as the quest itself seems fun.

Furtermore, I'd like any people who actually joined a (different) land specifically for WP codes to stand up and speak. Mur might expect this to motivate people, I think it's weird that loyalty can be bought with WP codes. Of course you could betray your country after getting what you want, but has any of that happened?

[Kyphis the Bard]

[quote name='Kyphis the Bard' date='30 July 2010 - 11:33 AM' timestamp='1280450003' post='64774']
Fyrd Argentus has brought to my attention the difficulties he has faced in getting Wishpoints to reward for his quests. While he has been able to get them from three of the kings, which he is grateful for, it has been a struggle to do so.
[/quote]
[quote name='Firsanthalas' date='30 July 2010 - 11:57 PM' timestamp='1280494668' post='64789']
Sorry, but I am not sure that I follow. I have already given Fyrd WPs for rewards and agreed to give him some more. I am not at all happy with someone saying otherwise.
----------------
For the record I dislike when people make sweeping statements like this, which I feel are totally untrue, in my case at least.
[/quote]
Yes, in your case, it is untrue. However, I had intentionally left it vague, as Kafuuka guessed, to avoid naming the one king who has been the most hardline about not giving Wishpoint Codes outside his land.
Because I do not wish for anyone to be given flak for this, I would appreciate if none of the other kings state if they have or have not given codes when they reply. I know who has, and to what extent as well. If anyone really wants to know, all the information is already available.

Muratus' earlier directives, and even his post in this topic, show direct support for a hardline approach against Wishpoint Codes going to quest creators outside the Kings lands. Any king who doesn't wish to sponsor quests external to their lands is completely within their rights and responsibilities to do so.
However, Muratus also stated that the Kings have their own lee-way on how they manage their resources, and how they apply the rules for benefiting their own lands. In this manner, the kings also have the freedom to support quests outside their own lands with whatever resources they wish, so long as it benefits their lands in some manner (be that through resources, work, or simple reputation)

Thankyou, Firsanthalas, for replying to the topic.
I'll be contacting you privately to find out what that project that was never completed was, and see if I can organise something.

[Firsanthalas]

Fair enough, but to me it comes across as perhaps the opposite as you intended. You say that you didn't want to name and shame one king. However, in doing so it kind of gives the impression that all the kings are being mean or uncooperative somehow. I also don't want people to get the impression that there is no point in asking me or any other king for WP rewards. It would be a terrible loss if people simply didn't ask because of an assumption that they wouldn't get.

[Ren]

[quote name='I am Bored' date='29 July 2010 - 11:04 PM' timestamp='1280462690' post='64778']
you might be able to get renavoid to step back up to his old post as chief archivist.....
[/quote]

I would like to take this opportunity to point out that, even if you convinced *me* to come back, there are others who would never permit my return.

[Fyrd Argentus]

I hate to step on Kyphis's toes here, but he is away, and I wish to personally and publicly thank Firsanthalas for generously supporting my quests.

Lifeline has also supported my quests, but then I have some ties to MB as the MDA envoy to MB.
Jester has always taken the hard line that his wp codes are only for quests created by his citizens. No shame - firm policy.
Yrthilian has sometimes supported, sometimes not, but the purpose here is NOT just to get a clear reading on Loreroot wp code policy.

The concern I brought to Kyphis's attention here is that because we are MDA, all these requests for wp codes are "outside the normal channels". As such, they are a fragile thing outside the system, and this lack of regular process should be a concern for MDA leadership as an ongoing issue for the future.

If we "wear out our welcome", the trend I worry about is that it might become that the hardest part of making a quest from a position of MDA citizenship is getting appropriate rewards lined up.

This is my persepective - I am a worrier. Kyphis is looking for independent confirmation of the situation from other sources here, i.e., the Kings.

Edited August 20, 2010 by Fyrd Argentus

[Kyphis the Bard]

Aye, that is my intent. I would have preferred not to have names stated, but that is the current situation.

This topic isn't about changing the kings attitudes or policies, but simply to have them publicly established so that both the public will have a greater ability to gauge who to petition for patronage for their quests, and so that, for my own alliance and land at least, I may begin more private discussions about policy.

I appreciate your feedback, Firsanthalas, and hope that the other kings will post soon.

[Yrthilian]

I was ment to post a responce to this a long time ago but got sidetracked

My policy on the WP's and their codes.

Most codes are for Golemus people running quests
But i will at time give code to non land people. I have done this many time
and as it is mentioned about i accept some quest and will support them and other
i wont. There is not clear cut selection process.

I put asside a small amount of WP's to be used by non land players
I have even run quets myself or puzzels that will give the player a WP or WP code
they get asked at the time if the want the code for use in quests of their own.

I believe i have mentioned this before on the forums on how i give out codes
and that i can be approached in all the diffrent form of contact that i have
let people know of.

I will also point out this from a kingship point of view.
The kingship has the power to get changes done to their lands and alliance
we DO NOT have the same power to do this to lands out side of our kingdoms
So in this the kingship should not have to be preasured to give WP codes to lands outside

What would happen if the kingship started making changes to your alliances
you would all go crazy and complain and say we have no right

The same can be said in return to you all asking for wp codes from the kings
you have no right to ask yet we have done on many ocasions given this.
This topic is a bad way to go about it and could only push the kings into keeping
the codes for the land they run.

You are non allianed land and have no kingship to get codes from
so instead of complaining about that why not find a way to have the same ablities within
thoes lands. It cannot be that difficult to figure out how.

[Ren]

So...what about some sort of "Generator" outside the lands? That is, a small group of people that constantly seek out more wp codes that they can use to sponsor people outside the regular lands in their quests. I suspect it would be hard to set up, and harder to maintain, not to mention it would probably get "abused" by Land Alliance people wanting to use it if it worked well enough... But, unless another method is found..? Just a random suggestion.

Or perhaps set up a regular barter agreement of sorts where kings give a certain number of Tasks that can be "Traded" in for wp codes, similar to the Pickle Points system. These tasks could be like regular quests I suppose, or they could be things that benefit the Realm more. Something like, "find a new place to promote MD from" or "teach a new player for a week straight out of story mode", etc. Again, potentially abused, but a suggestion none the less.

EDIT: You could also sort of combine the two ideas, of course.

Edited August 27, 2010 by Ren

[Kyphis the Bard]

[quote name='Yrthilian' timestamp='1282909971' post='67132']
I will also point out this from a kingship point of view.
The kingship has the power to get changes done to their lands and alliance
we DO NOT have the same power to do this to lands out side of our kingdoms
So in this the kingship should not have to be preasured to give WP codes to lands outside

What would happen if the kingship started making changes to your alliances
you would all go crazy and complain and say we have no right

The same can be said in return to you all asking for wp codes from the kings
you have no right to ask yet we have done on many ocasions given this.
This topic is a bad way to go about it and could only push the kings into keeping
the codes for the land they run.

You are non allianed land and have no kingship to get codes from
so instead of complaining about that why not find a way to have the same ablities within
thoes lands. It cannot be that difficult to figure out how.
[/quote]
I apologize if you feel this topic is meant to pressure you into giving outsiders wishpoints, I have stated many times that that was not my intent.

My intent is to get a statement of policy from the kings about whether or not they would be willing to sponsor wishpoints to outsiders, and what sort of conditions they may have.

I thankyou for your generosity and time, I will update the first post with your policy shortly.