Wishshop Requirements

[Fyrd Argentus]

[quote name='dst' timestamp='1288712342' post='71338']
What do you mean by ?
If this will not be retroactive then it loses its purpose!
This is supposed to be a way to reward for the loyal (that's not really the correct word but stil..) players and stimulate the new ones. After almost 3 years of playing MD you can bet that I will NOT find an incentive in getting some WPs the same way new players will get them. Or better said: the same time.
[/quote]

YOUR purpose, maybe. The game needs more magic, and more incentives to stay, but does it need more perks for those already addicted?

[dst]

My purpose and also the purpose of a [size="7"]looong[/size] list of VETERANS!

Yes, you need to think at the vets also. Like it or not we are here and we are teaching the new ones about this game!

[Kamisha]

Though im often not in complete agreement with many people I have to agree with DST on this. Retro activation is a almost a requirement. As for the system being unbalanced you have to look at the active days. If you are bound to the same rules as everybody else then the system is stable. Besides WP spells have limited effects. You don't need wish-points to be successful they just give you that extra push.

Besides Fryd its not a question of if its a question of when now.

[Udgard]

[quote name='Fyrd Argentus' timestamp='1288711434' post='71337']
Why should having multiple accounts with spells be alt abuse? Abuse occurs only when accounts interact. If we're really worried about this, restrict these special wishpoints to a shorter list of user-type spells, like the MP6 list. Creating these new spells would pad out the wp shop nicely....
[/quote]
Hence why there are suggestions to move some wish deeper in the shops; especially those that are transferable (drach mutation, colorless joker, and items though not actually a wish fall into this category too). I think most of the wish that should be made available early are just the spells; transferables, access to restricted places, and editing abilities should be moved deeper.

[Kafuuka]

If you push all the 'cool' stuff down the shop, then you are doubly 'punishing' new players and not even fulfilling the purpose of pleasing the old players who have little or no WP. Not that I agree with such a purpose, but apparently that is what this is about.

[Udgard]

And what constitutes "cool"? Aside from the 2 mutation spells I mentioned, bestiary, 4 place access (SK, OT, BC, LR - using initials to prevent spoilers, just in case) and editing abilities, there are..
-[b]11 spells[/b](not counting the ones I can't see yet - there might be more)
-xp resets
-profile balancing
-VE/VP increase
-K doc
Are these not "cool" enough for new players and veterans alike? Cause if they don't, I don't see any use for them to be in the shop, since it's of no interest to anyone. The WP giving is already rewarding everyone; I'm just not favoring the idea of serving the deeper 'magics' of Magic Duel on a platter. Do that, and the magic is lost.

[Kamisha]

What Udgard is saying is very simple. Yes you are getting wishpoints we are in agreement that it is a good thing. New players and old players alike are rejoicing in the bathing of wishes. What Udgard is saying is not that we should restrict wishes. What we have to do is push them back for people who have not earned a couple are restricted at least to a point. For example I have earned two wish points (Ok one for those who want to be picky but the fact remains I have two). I should get access too more interesting things then say a player who has just been logging in to achieve active days and is not active in the community.

Being actively involved in quests should be more rewarding then just waiting on active days. At least that is how I interpret it Udgard please correct me if I am wrong. Limited restrictions not a complete lock out.

[Tarquinus]

As someone who spends considerable amounts of time maintaining two accounts/characters, I would like to say I do [u]not[/u] think WP for days should be given to alts. Though I can think of at least two alts (not my own!) who are very well played and demonstrably separate from their players' main accounts, they are exceptions. I think the potential for abuse is simply too great to give alts WP for active days. It's a hell of a gift as it is - players should be grateful to receive it on any account.

I don't even think it matters if the account with the most active days is automatically the one to receive the WP bonus. I can think of many vets who have proved conclusively that a persistent and determined player can get anything in the game s/he could reasonably want; though some players may whine that all their accounts "deserve" bonus WP, I don't see that extra accounts are [i]entitled[/i] to anything. We're lucky they're permitted at all.

I agree also with those who favor pushing certain kinds of wish back in the shop. It makes good sense to make certain wishes harder to get than others. Fyrd, I understand your concerns but I think the potential benefit (more magic) outweighs the potential hazard (unbalance).

[Metal Bunny]

Wouldn't it be a greater compromise to simply track the first character's, or in cases where it matters, to allow the oldest character have the wp accumulated to them, and allow for the option to redistribute them amongst your alts, as long as your alts comply with the conditions.

So for instance, if your alt is 80 days, and your main is 480, you are allowed to put one of your main's wp (for active days only, not the wp from quests or such), into your alt. A second one is not allowed as long as it hasn't reached age 120.

[Kamisha]

That would result in a major overhaul for the game as a whole. Mur would have to find a 100% chance to find alts which is not realistic. Then he would have to associate those accounts as one which are two separate character profiles. Then there would have to be a page constructed considering WP trades and WP for days would have to be considered a different kind of wish point and be tagged as such.

[Kafuuka]

- out of the 11 spells, 3 have been proposed for steeper requirements
- xp resets have been proposed for a push back too
- profile balancing is mostly useful for people in an alliance. It came to be mainly because without it a lot of people are totally gimped. Patches are cool and all but having to spend your free wp on a problem that other people created for you is not really awesome.
- VE might interest some, but VP increase?
- K doc is already down in the shop and proposed for further limitations

Looking deeper into the 8 spells left, there's two utility spells, two spells to help people and four spells for annoying people and/or making them more attackable. And that's only if nobody objects to any of those spells being available at the start.
[quote]
Are these not "cool" enough for new players and veterans alike? Cause if they don't, I don't see any use for them to be in the shop, since it's of no interest to anyone. The WP giving is already rewarding everyone; I'm just not favoring the idea of serving the deeper 'magics' of Magic Duel on a platter. Do that, and the magic is lost.
[/quote]
No, there's only a very limited amount of wishes left, that are really not alike, out of the whole shop. All the other types are considered 'dangerous' (and hence more cool). Currently upon receiving your first WP you have two dozen choices or more. How exactly it is cool for new people who legitimately solve the BP puzzle to be see their options diminished this much is beyond me.
Without changing the spent WP requirements, the WP will be rewarding everyone, albeit not uniformly. If you impose stronger restrictions, you will no longer be rewarding everyone; it will be more like a forced trade. It might be a nice trade for a lot of people but it will be a bad one for some.


Also, is there anyone that can explain to me how you can verify an alt to be an alt if it is behind a proxy? I know good proxies are hard to find, but I have never heard of a foolproof alt check method. Looking at trade logs is a hassle and anyone with enough intellect to go through a proxy will pay a small price to the alt and cover their tracks. There's no official prices for anything anyway.

[Chewett]

[quote name='Metal Bunny' timestamp='1288878399' post='71430']
Wouldn't it be a greater compromise to simply track the first character's, or in cases where it matters, to allow the oldest character have the wp accumulated to them, and allow for the option to redistribute them amongst your alts, as long as your alts comply with the conditions.

So for instance, if your alt is 80 days, and your main is 480, you are allowed to put one of your main's wp (for active days only, not the wp from quests or such), into your alt. A second one is not allowed as long as it hasn't reached age 120.
[/quote]

Well the intresting thing is im an alt of about 4/5 people on the Active Vet list. Now thats an issue if it isnt retroactive since only "one" person would get it, however its quite evident im none of their alts.

so i suppose this idea works in principle, But either exceptions need to be made or people wont be getting WP's they obviously deserve

[Udgard]

[quote name='Kafuuka' timestamp='1288892795' post='71454']
No, there's only a very limited amount of wishes left, that are really not alike, out of the whole shop. All the other types are considered 'dangerous' (and hence more cool). [b]Currently upon receiving your first WP you have two dozen choices or more.[/b] How exactly it is cool for new people who legitimately solve the BP puzzle to be see their options diminished this much is beyond me.
[/quote]
Kafuuka, 2 dozen choices or more is NOT what new players get, it is what old player gets. Do remember that wishes gets more available based on active days as well.
[quote name='Announcement']Wishes become available based on [b]active days[/b], number of spent wishpoints, number of available wishpoints and other personal progress factors.[/quote]
New people who legitimately solve the BP puzzle won't even see most of that wishes that were suggested to be moved deeper. I'm currently opening a 47 days alt with no WP, and I do [b]not [/b]see:
-any of the mutation spells
-any of the secret access
-any of the editing abilities
-the silvertongue spell and the summon dead army spell
I do not see 2 dozen choices or more; I see only 11 right now, less than a dozen. Most abilities has been locked via active days anyways, so there will be no case of a new player who completed the BP puzzle seeing their options diminished.

And by the time they actually get through the active days requirement to see some more options on the shop, they would have gotten another WP from their active days anyways, which they can spend on something - thus opening the deeper spells.. So those who have earned their WP via other means is nowhere near being punished.

[Kafuuka]

I admit I forgot about active days requirements, but I checked your claim on an alt and I saw a notice [i]'This is a list of possible items you could access if you had some wish points. The exact list available for your account will be displayed once you have at least one available wishpoint.'[/i] I also browsed through the announcement log and compared the list showed to what should be available and there is at least one option there which should not be there, nl 'balance profile' at 120 days. Hence there is no reason to assume that options which should be there actually are there either.

After a brief look, I've found only one wish requiring more than 130 days. At that point you'd have two WP plus the one assumed from BPG = 3. Silvertongue, which should be available by the current requirement and gift count, has been proposed to have a requirement of 8 spent WP... That would also imply you'd have to have 1200 AD and have solved the BPG to be able to get it by means of relatively easy to get WPs.

To me it is clear that we don't want to be overenthusiastic with imposing higher requirements - if at all. - It is far from trivial to both meet your goal of pleasing old and moderately old players and to keep from harming people who got other WPs at whatever age, by doing quests.

[Lifeline]

i only read about half of the topic but concerning alt abuses here a suggestion. if it was alrdy made sorry didnt see it.

there is an alt checker in place so i believe the system is able to trace alts automatically more or less. so how about giving the same user on all the alts just 1 single chance to activate the wishpoints. what i mean is he can only activate them on one of his accounts. i know there are problems with the alt checker but i dont know how severe they are and if this would even work. but perhaps its better manually fix some cases where the alt checker is broken then having a huge WP inflaction on alts and stuff

[Kamisha]

The problem with that is the restriction of players who play on the same LAN connection. For example if my brother played which he doesn't (He is an FPS junky) he would be on the same LAN connection that I am on which would mean only one of us would have access to the WP function for days. There are also the people who have or are playing in an internet cafe or in my case in the University of Winnipeg in my spare time. Its an IP address tracker not a MAC address tracker.

[Chewett]

[quote name='Lifeline' timestamp='1288981540' post='71533']
i only read about half of the topic but concerning alt abuses here a suggestion. if it was alrdy made sorry didnt see it.there is an alt checker in place so i believe the system is able to trace alts automatically more or less. so how about giving the same user on all the alts just 1 single chance to activate the wishpoints. what i mean is he can only activate them on one of his accounts. i know there are problems with the alt checker but i dont know how severe they are and if this would even work. but perhaps its better manually fix some cases where the alt checker is broken then having a huge WP inflaction on alts and stuff
[/quote]

I beg you to read the topic before posting something that has already been suggested.

The issue is not how. but Why should/nt it be used. And if you missed my comment, im an "alt" of at least 4 people on the active Vet list. Most definately more due to their alts being my alts. Obviously i/we should be punished for helping out a friend once or twice lol.

[(Zl-eye-f)-nea]

Clearly I am missing what the fuss is about...what is the problem with alts having the abilities the wps grant you? So alts can cast spells and edit things...what is the issue with that? This should only be afforded to very few people should it?

Z

[Tarquinus]

I believe the fuss is not so much about the abilities [i]per se[/i] but the wish points. As dst pointed out, look what MR Alyon did with items. If item creation inflation isn't a big deal, say, because every crafter is as principled as Udgard, then there is no problem. I take a rather cynical view that if a thing can be abused, it will be.

Don't get me wrong. I'd love to see Keith have lots of spells as well as Tarq. I'm just a bit wary of seeing wish point inflation caused by WPs being given out to people with large numbers of alts.

[Laphers]

If I may add one item to the conversation...

Mur has the ability to see how the current wishpoints are distributed and how WP have been spent. Does this not suggest that he believes that MD needs more WP than it currently has (or that they need to be distributed differently)? And if that is the case then maybe he wants more use of the Wishshop (or item creation) than is currently happening. Continuing that line of reasoning, the Wishshop may not need too much tweaking as he seems to want more WP (and the corresponding purchases) out there.

(I'm not saying that this is what Mur is thinking but rather how his announcements [i]could be[/i] interpreted)

[Seigheart]

I, like Zleiph, do not understand the big fuss. So there are those of the community with many Alts. There are those of us who watch the Logs compulsively. Unless you have forgotten, there IS a WP Log. Any Alts abusing the WP days feature will be caught immediately, and prosecuted.

Simple.

We are the Guards of our community.

[Udgard]

[quote name='Kafuuka' timestamp='1288981173' post='71532']
I admit I forgot about active days requirements, but I checked your claim on an alt and I saw a notice [i]'This is a list of possible items you could access if you had some wish points. The exact list available for your account will be displayed once you have at least one available wishpoint.'[/i] I also browsed through the announcement log and compared the list showed to what should be available and there is at least one option there which should not be there, nl 'balance profile' at 120 days. Hence there is no reason to assume that options which should be there actually are there either.

After a brief look, I've found only one wish requiring more than 130 days. At that point you'd have two WP plus the one assumed from BPG = 3. Silvertongue, which should be available by the current requirement and gift count, has been proposed to have a requirement of 8 spent WP... That would also imply you'd have to have 1200 AD and have solved the BPG to be able to get it by means of relatively easy to get WPs.

To me it is clear that we don't want to be overenthusiastic with imposing higher requirements - if at all. - It is far from trivial to both meet your goal of pleasing old and moderately old players and to keep from harming people who got other WPs at whatever age, by doing quests.
[/quote]
I haven't really thought about the exact numbers for deepening the wishes, though on a glance I'd agree that 8 WP seems a bit too much. But I do believe that in principle, deepening some stuff needs to be done, though the numbers need to be carefully adjusted so it's not an overkill.