Forum Signatures

[Akasha]

It was a rule given long ago about the forum signatures in other languages..it was saying they are not allowed...lucky for us, there are translators on the internet that can help us understand what goes thru your little minds...

Prink and Raven have the same signature and in red and in serbian..and it goes like this :

[quote]"Vi slepi, vi gluvi, vi sebični ljudi što pravite buku bez reda i smisla, bez zašto i zato, za koga i kako, bez pitanja koje bi možda osušilo ponosni osmeh na licu bez suza na licu što nikada obraz okrenulo nije

Brazgotina, sanduk i crv i obraz i dlaka i krv

Vi nemi igrači svog obrednog plesa vi srećni u transu u svetu što postoji samo u glavama ljudi bez skrupula, ljudi bez milosti ljudi bez sećanja, vi što ne znate pljuskove zvuka boje mirisa... vi ljudi bez pameti"[/quote]

and it is translated into this :

[quote]"[color="#8b0000"]You are blind, deaf you, you selfish people that make noise without sense and meaning, without a why and why, who and how, no questions which might have dried out a proud smile on her face without a tear on his face that never turned to face not

[/color][color="#8b0000"]Scotch, coffin and a worm and face and hair and blood

You dumb players of his ritual dance in a trance you happy in a world that exists only in the minds of unscrupulous people, people with no mercy people without memory, you do not know what color the sound showers smell ... [/color][color="#8b0000"]you people with no brains [/color]"[/quote]

Now, i would directly ban you from the forum for ignoring the rules.
Your fate (at the very least on forums) will be decided in the mod section ; please no ranting or trying to excuse yourself, don't try to twist the words.

[Udgard]

The words seem a little bit too poetic for me so I ran some quick google checks.
Those text seems like a part of a song by Milan Mladenovic.

Some quick links from google searching:
http://www.lyricsmania.com/crv_lyrics_milan_mladenovic.html
http://www.kovach.rs/Angels_Breath_-_Crv_lyric.html

Now I personally do not really know about the forum sig rules regarding other languanges, but since it seems that there is, I guess they do go against the rules. But it really is just a piece of song, which you can't easily translate to other languages without losing some of its meaning, so maybe, imo, a ban is a bit too harsh for posting music lyrics as sigs?

[Curiose]

I would have to agree with Udgard.

This was a very minor offense, speaking in a different language when on the forums it is stated that English is the language. Despite the content being slightly offensive without the realizing of it being a song*, I think a change in signature and maybe [at the very least, I think], a suspension on the forums.

*What I mean by that, is simply them telling the world and players of MD: F U I am superior and everyone else can jump off a bridge, etc etc.

Now, that may have/ have not been their intent, but I believe they should have the chance to state so, or not, so as to properly carry out a punishment.

Edited to add stuff.

Edited November 23, 2010 by Curiose

[dst]

I have some really nice songs in RO but if you translate them...you'll read swears like you never read before. But I don't go posting them in signatures. Because people might find them offending.

Second:English is the official language allowed on the forum for a reason. Yes, we use expressions (Latin, Greek etc) but we don't quote volumes.

[Rendril]

I take it you are referring to this rule:
[quote name='Da Rules']The forum language is English, no other language is to be used anywhere on forum except in the Translation section where you may post in the language that you are offering to translate the game into.[/quote]
My personal interpretation is this gets applied to [b]posts[/b], particularly since it mentions posting in a section, and since it does not explicitly include signatures. Let us assume it encompasses everything: what about images, what about songs? This is an extreme application of a rule which is not clear to begin with.

As for other languages in a signature, what about your own?
"[i]Solanum Lycopersicon Esculentum[/i]"


The words in Princ and Ravenstrider's signatures are from a song, they are not an attack on someone, it is my understanding that you have taken it as an attack, judging by the suggestion to ban them.


Now about the extreme rule application:
Both you and I have breached the forum rules by posting content in different languages. Surely you see how ridiculous such an application is?


[quote name='dst' timestamp='1290500218' post='72862']
Second:English is the official language allowed on the forum for a reason. Yes, we use expressions (Latin, Greek etc) but we don't quote volumes.
[/quote]
Perhaps I missed it, but the use of a phrase being allowed in a different is not mentioned in the rules.

Edited November 23, 2010 by Rendril

[Akasha]

[b][b]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomato
[/b][/b]

[dst]

Rendril, that's not a phrase. That's a freaking song.
Second: it is offensive.

[Rendril]

[quote name='Akasha' timestamp='1290500791' post='72866']
[b][b]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomato
[/b][/b]
[/quote]
Thank you for affirming my implied argument.
That was: if one were to bother to look up the words they would find the meaning and know that it was not an attack on them by seeing it is a song.

[quote name='dst' timestamp='1290501132' post='72867']
Rendril, that's not a phrase. That's a freaking song.
Second: it is offensive.
[/quote]
-Phrases are not explicitly given amnesty in the rules.
-Even if it is a song, I consider it to be short. 3 small paragraphs is well within "phrase-ish" consideration to me. ([b]My[/b] interpretation *)
-[b]Your[/b] interpretation is that it is offensive. For me it is not. Does that justify a ban when even if offensive, it is clearly not directed at you? If everything that one can consider offensive was bannable the forum would get banned

Edited November 23, 2010 by Rendril

[dst]

You miss the whole point.
I'll explain it again rarely this time:

English is the only allowed language in the forum.


Those 2 put something in another language. First offense.


If someone curious enough goes and translates the words he/she discovers they are full of insults. Second offense.


And I think Akasha state what SHE will do. That's her opinion. She's entitled to it. And she already said that "their fate" will be decided by the GROUP of mods.


Clearer now?

[Rendril]

[quote name='dst' timestamp='1290501796' post='72870']
You miss the whole point.
I'll explain it again rarely this time:
[/quote]
No, I see what her argument is, as indicated by my first post to this thread.

[quote name='dst' timestamp='1290501796' post='72870']
English is the only allowed language in the forum.


Those 2 put something in another language. First offense.
[/quote]
And I have brought up the following:
I consider the signatures short enough to be phrases (both because of their length and because they are sayings by someone else), by your own admission, phrases are acceptable.
Both Akasha and I have posted something in another language in this very thread, yet why is that not a breach? Because it's obvious you mgiht say? Well since is not qualified in the rules , it IS a breach.
My argument is that since [b]signatures[/b] containing other languages is not explicitly forbidden, why are our posts exempted when also lacking a rule?
And while on that matter, what is a song or video in a another language is posted on the forum?


[quote name='dst' timestamp='1290501796' post='72870']
If someone curious enough goes and translates the words he/she discovers they are full of insults. Second offense.
[/quote]
And they would see that it was a song, not an attack on them. What you are saying is they find the words offensive, not the fact that it was directed at them. Well then what if someone finds your above post offensive? The whole matter is subjective. And while I agree that it can be interpreted as offensive, I do not feel a ban would be applicable for the specific words in this case, nor do I feel than anything more than a warning to the involved parties is required.

[quote name='dst' timestamp='1290501796' post='72870']
And I think Akasha state what SHE will do. That's her opinion. She's entitled to it. And she already said that "their fate" will be decided by the GROUP of mods.
[/quote]
Certainly she is entitled to her opinion, and I to mine, and Rheagar and Ravenstrider to theirs.
I presented a refutation and all I asked for was a motivation for her reasoning, which has not been provided.

[quote name='dst' timestamp='1290501796' post='72870']
Clearer now?
[/quote]
As shown from my above replies, I do not feel that there was any misunderstanding on my behalf but rather on yours

Edited November 23, 2010 by Rendril

[dst]

It seems we need to define what a phrase is and what an expression is. Cause you confuse them Ren .
I said that we are allowed to use expressions (want me to look over the forum to search for some to give as example?) not several pages from books.

[quote]My argument is that since signatures containing other languages is not explicitly forbidden[/quote]

Aren't the signatures part of the forum? Isn't the mood panel part of the forum? Isn't the personal profile part of the forum?
You see, on the last 2 ones you're not allowed to use insults. Why would you be allowed to use it on the first one?

[quote]And they would see that it was a song, not an attack on them. [/quote]
This is not an argument. Doesn't matter that it is a song. They used it to make a statement. Or isn't that one of the purposes of a signature?
I find that statement offending.

Raven is at his first offense on the forum. So he may have a lesser punishment. But Princ should know better.

[Sharazhad]

[color="#2e8b57"][i]My signiture is in Elvish... Am I gonna get banned too?

The way I see it, is that Raven and Rhaegar are not insulting anyone directly - and right now it looks like a bit of a witch hunt. Yes its offensive, but I dont think MD is in the business of running a dictatorship. People should be allowed to say pretty much whatever they want (within reason of course).
Say if they get banned, do we all then have to go through a "screening /censorship" process so that "offensive material" is withdrawn?

[/i][/color]

[dst]

@Sharazad: since you pointed that out: what does your signature say?

[Sharazhad]

[color="#2e8b57"][i]Sharazhad: Princess of Turhan[/i][/color]

[dst]

Do you consider it a phrase or an expression?
Also, how is that offensive?

[Rendril]

[quote name='dst' timestamp='1290503466' post='72874']
It seems we need to define what a phrase is and what an expression is. Cause you confuse them Ren .
[/quote]
I'm sorry, this is not the case.
I said that based on the origin of the text and length, it can be considered a phrase (or in this case expression).
Please do not get into a battle of semantics where English is not the first language and the speakers must speak in English.
For example you made a semantic mistake which I will not bring up, because it unnecessary and is not relevant.


[quote name='dst' timestamp='1290503466' post='72874']
I said that we are allowed to use expressions (want me to look over the forum to search for some to give as example?) not several pages from books.
[/quote]
This is my exact argument. To was not several pages. It was 3 short paragraphs. I feel it can be considered an expression in this case.

[quote name='dst' timestamp='1290503466' post='72874']
Aren't the signatures part of the forum? Isn't the mood panel part of the forum? Isn't the personal profile part of the forum?
[/quote]
I have already explained this twice:
First - the rules use the word "post" - would that not imply a post on the forum. Not a display of a signature? (not trying to get into semantics but it creates different interpretations since they are the rules). It is not explicitly stated that signatures may not contain another language.
Second - Why are both Akasha and I allowed to write in another language in this thread when the rules don't allow it specifically, yet Rhaegar and Ravenstrider may not do so in their signatures?

[quote name='dst' timestamp='1290503466' post='72874']
You see, on the last 2 ones you're not allowed to use insults. Why would you be allowed to use it on the first one?
[/quote]
I'm not saying that they are allowed. I am saying that the motive does not add up for it to be considered as offensive. How else can you differentiate from what is to be removed or not? For example: What if I find Akasha's signature offensive?
See below for further expansion.


[quote name='dst' timestamp='1290503466' post='72874']
This is not an argument. Doesn't matter that it is a song. They used it to make a statement. Or isn't that one of the purposes of a signature?
I find that statement offending.
[/quote]
The fact that it is a song shows that it wasn't written by either of them as an attack on someone. You find it offending, I don't. Where do you make a fair line? I propose on motive and origin: it was not created to offend you particularly, it was placed in the signature to make a statement (as you said) whose offensive nature is clearly debatable.

[quote name='dst' timestamp='1290503466' post='72874']
Raven is at his first offense on the forum. So he may have a lesser punishment. But Princ should know better.
[/quote]
And my response has been to show why such a drastic action was not necessary in this case.

Edited November 23, 2010 by Rendril

[Akasha]

Your signature photo must be removed, or resized, it violates one of the forum rules:

- Signature pictures may not exceed following rules: Height: 150px Width: 500px File size: 50kb.

This is an international forum, therefore international language to be used, aka english and not offensive.
Princ knows very well this rule as he posted injurring texts on the mod panel long ago and got warned for that and explained that only english to be used; aka we are speaking about a player that violated the forum rules more times in the past.

Exepcions can be, ofc the scientific names/expressions, like the one i have for the tomato, wich is 1 word, not a volume of offensive text.


Nobody said this is dictatorship, but it is a forum and has rules, rules that must be respected or else we, the mods/admins will enforce them in order to keep the forum clean off all sorts of misery that some can bring in.

[dst]

[quote]I'm not saying that they are allowed[/quote]

Thank you Ren. That's all I wanted to know.

[Rendril]

[quote name='Akasha' timestamp='1290504966' post='72882']
Your signature photo must be removed, or resized, it violates one of the forum rules:

- Signature pictures may not exceed following rules: Height: 150px Width: 500px File size: 50kb.
[/quote]
What I was referring to about images was what if that image has non-English text.
There is not a case of that given in the rules.

[quote name='Akasha' timestamp='1290504966' post='72882']
This is an international forum, therefore international language to be used, aka english and not offensive.
[/quote]
It is not fair to judge on the signature when a signature specifically is not included in the rules.
Furthermore I have provided reasons as to why it does not need to be deemed offensive (origin and motive)

[quote name='Akasha' timestamp='1290504966' post='72882']
Princ knows very well this rule as he posted injurring texts on the mod panel long ago and got warned for that and explained that only english to be used; aka we are speaking about a player that violated the forum rules more times in the past.
[/quote]
His number of past transgressions does not validate the fabrication of new crimes. It can only serve to reinforce a punishment or give inference regarding intention.
Since he has been informed about these rules previously, he can't argue not knowing them.

[quote name='Akasha' timestamp='1290504966' post='72882']
Exepcions can be, ofc the scientific names/expressions, like the one i have for the tomato, wich is 1 word, not a volume of offensive text.
[/quote]
The rules do not state this. Also I have argued that why their texts could be considered expressions.

[quote name='Akasha' timestamp='1290504966' post='72882']
Nobody said this is dictatorship, but it is a forum and has rules, rules that must be respected or else we, the mods/admins will enforce them in order to keep the forum clean off all sorts of misery that some can bring in.
[/quote]
Rules that should then be applied to both of us, right? I direct you to my previous statements regarding the rules and interpretations.


----------------------------------------

I would like to clarify that I am not saying that they did not break any rules.
Rather, the following: the rules are not explicit enough, applying them to extremes is absurd. Extending them to signatures is within the bounds of the rules, but because they can be interpreted so differently, means that to punish on grounds of a signature, there should be a rule specifically stating it instead of just a "post".
Let us say that someone never makes a post, just has a non-English signature, it can't be considered part of a post they made because they never have, yet the rules need to apply.


Edit: for clarity.

Edited November 23, 2010 by Rendril

[Firsanthalas]

If I may. I get that the signature is probably a veiled attempt at poking fingers at certain people in MD. However, I don't really care to be honest.
Yes, the forum is supposed to use English, but some people don't use it 100% and to be honest, I think that in 99.9% of cases nobody would complain at all.
What I'd really like to see is the sig translated into English properly. If someone is trying to insult me or anyone else I'd like them to have the decency to do it properly
If its not an attempt at a snide insult, well same goes really. If I don't understand it, I can't feel paranoid that its somehow a message for me
I think that they should just remove or translate it to English, I don't think its cause for punishment.

[Akasha]

again, for ren's understanding : english on [u]forums[/u], right?

posts from the forums = txt on [u]forums[/u]
signature from the forums = a text in .... [u]forums
[/u]mod panel from the forums = a text in ... [u]forums[/u]

what else are you saying that is not on forums or it may be considered out of forums?

EVERYTHING that is done here, on this forum (by this forum i mean everything on this domain) is THAT forum that only english is allowed. Better now?

[Jubaris]

Udgard you're right, it's lyrics from a song called "Crv" (translated as Worm) by one of the best musicians in modern Serbia. If anyone finds him/herself in the song... well what can I do.

Rendril, as one of the, I can say, officials of MD, stated many things objectively which I wish to thank him for, that's usually not the case with such figures of power in MD, and people that question accusations of other officials are often labeled as some kind of MD enemies. You have my respect (as you did before)

Rendril said many things that I support, but I'll repeat it as response of my own cause that's what people want I guess. I will be gladly to remove anything that is against the rules, assuming that rules apply for each and everyone, that are clear and without space for self-interpretation. For now, I don't understand what is our mistake, except being said that I (and Raven) acted controversially with this signature.


[quote name='Akasha' timestamp='1290504966' post='72882']

- Signature pictures may not exceed following rules: Height: 150px Width: 500px File size: 50kb.

[/quote]

"Signature Pictures", each and every one is according to the rulebook.
Rules didn't state the size of the text... so please modify that if you want, and I'll change things accordingly. Text is rather short, so I don't see the problem there

[Muratus del Mur]

Are you people running out of arguing reasons? because i can give you plenty if you want.

Do you really need to go behind words to pretend, either to "catch" someone, or to offend someone?
Rules are there for decency and common sense. It is also common sense that allows rules to be crossed and not taken always letter by letter.

For example the picture size is so that signature won't be too agressive and take too much display space. If you can't figure that out by yourself you have a big issue. Quotes the same, they are intended to avoid saying directly what one would want to say, it is a form of diplomacy, survive it.

If you need force to behave, fine, so be it.

Chewett please decide on this yourself, no voting, forum is your jurisdiction.
It seems that common sense has more "sense" if not debated.


[b]UPDATE[/b]
i had the impression mods don't agree on this one. my mistake, if mods agree on something do whatever you agree on.

[dst]

[quote name='Rhaegar Targaryen' timestamp='1290514537' post='72895']


Rendril, as one of the, I can say, officials of MD,

[/quote]

O_O how do you know that? I was under the impression that Ren is the programmer Mur hired to do things in MD. Do you have information that us, the mortals, don't have?



[quote name='Rhaegar Targaryen' timestamp='1290514537' post='72895']
"Signature Pictures", each and every one is according to the rulebook.
Rules didn't state the size of the text... so please modify that if you want, and I'll change things accordingly. Text is rather short, so I don't see the problem there
[/quote]

We have an expression (yes, 2 words which I will translate) in Ro called "persecution complex" . That was not for you. It was for Sharzad

[Ravenstrider]

I'd just to state the signature was meant for all those people that come here only to argue and gnaw at each others necks. It was left in Serbian because it's (in my opinion) a piece of poetry and can't be translated correctly by me. I considered it short enough to be in both my signature, and in another language, according to the rules.

And why open a topic about it anyway? Anyone who wanted to know what it means could have asked me. I even translated it in-game the other night. If you wanted to execute a punishment, again, it's nothing that should be handled in public... This just looks like a stoning for the amusement of the masses.

I don't know what you find offensive. I was thinking people would like it, in a sense they can see the message behind it (even the google translation does to an extent). Guess I was wrong.


Edit: Very loose translation for Firs and anyone else who is curious. Note: It's not even close to cover all the metaphors and subtle messages in the song, and I apologize to all of those who love EKV and Milan for translating this.

"You blind, you deaf, you selfish people, making the noise, without order and sense, without why and because, for whom and how, without the question that maybe would dry out the prideful smile on the face without tears (as in crying tears), on the face that never turned the cheek.

Tear (as in a rip, a scar), coffin, a worm, and face(or cheek) and hair and blood.

You mute(or silent) players of your ritual dance, happy in trance in a world that exists only in heads of people without scrupuls, of the people without mercy, people without memory, you who don't know the showers(or storms, waves, tough to translate the message here) of sound, colors and smells. You foolish people. "

[code]And here's the song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMj4dn2Vd_o&feature=related[/code]

Edited November 23, 2010 by Ravenstrider