Herbs

[Muratus del Mur]

what? no voting poll? no, i will present a general idea i plan to announce next week and allow it some time for any/everyone to debate it. If anything usefull comes out of the ideas you will be sharing I will either implement them or postpone these "herbs" for when it will be possible.

Herbs will be a general resource available mainly in Loreroot and Tribunal. Because a wide variety of herbs should be available, i will make it as one single resource type, in larger quantities than woon, named all the same "herbs". "Cauldron type devices" will be created to allow separation of this generally named resource into types of herbs. Depending on the instructions used and the device, herbs could be splitted/converted into any number of sortiments.

This is acceptable at a tehnical level because its far better to manage a single resource type than to add and adjust 100 sorts of herbs..however i am not sure how much sense it makes for people to gather "general herbs" in baskets and only after that to go with them to whoever will have the tools to separate them into usable types of herbs.

An other option would be to have still generally named herbs but a few more sorts and not to require any separation device to process them further.


along the same idea i will experiment with tool creating devices. Branches could be used to create baskets to collect herbs. A herbs guild wont be needed/created, but it room for a "herb gatherers community" to preserve the resource at acceptable levels, or guilds to handle the separation tools (restricting from collecting their own raw herbs for processing)


thats it

[Shadowseeker]

I would suggest making herb gathering universal, but the gathered herb when it gets determined will have an individual touch after identifying.

Basically, everyone knows that shiny red pepper is a herb, so one who is better at spotting those (because he has more briskness maybe or so?) will gather more of those- he only gathers "herbs", but with an identifying of the load he did gather it turns out he got like 5 red peppers, just 2 oregano or such stuff.

It would be interesting to have the tool vary its responses based on whom uses it- just like how some people can find smaller stuff better others gett o pick the bigger stuff. Maybe someone is even so special he just gets rare herbs more often than anyone else even- (or make two kinds of tools, which give different kind of herbs)

[b]Summary for those who don't want to read:[/b] Herbs as a total resource, make different tools or have one tool give different herbs based on the gatherer.

[Grido]

It makes perfect sense, a person goes and collects what they think to be herbs of some variety, but they don't have the knowledge to differentiate between the varieties, they need to visit someone with, idk a book of herbs with pictures, before they know what they collected

[Fire Starter]

[color="#48D1CC"][i][b]*Fire Starter smiles*[/b][/i][/color]
Interesting... Now, I do hope that "herbs" include Camellia Sinensis too

Edited July 22, 2011 by Fire Starter

[Muratus del Mur]

I can bind it to player dna, that way each player will be determined to gather a type of herb,only that, forever. Seen from an individual perspective is stupid, because you are "doomed" to gather a single sort of herbs , but from a more global (*cough* cubical) point of view it makes perfect sense and stimulates herb exchange or trading (i hope exchange).


At this point i am thinking to split the herbs (after collecting them as a general "herbs" resource) into fewer more usable types such as "tea leaves" "aromatic plants/spices" and so on (need ideas here)

An other option would be to create from the start the tools with a randomly assigned purpose. A guild that manufactures baskets and once the basket is created it is labeled as a tea collecting basket or spices collecting basket and such.

waiting for suggestions for herb types, name of the item that will build baskets out of ..branches?..or?

herbs resource will be added starting now, these items will come on the way.

[Burns]

Probably you should have 2 classes of herbs, directly useables and resource ones.

Like, useable herbs that give VE, AP, heat, drain VE, AP, heat with option to use on somebody else (itching powder or nettles, such things), maybe also herbs that increase stats for some time, or make certian creatures unuseable for a while (wolfsbane, anybody? )

The other type could be purely a resource for other means, like... base for making colors, poisons, antidotes, etc.

Unfortunately i'm extremely useless concerning herbology, no clue what types could do such things.


There could also be a variety of tools to use the herbs, some need to be cut, some boiled, others dried, and some are helpful in raw form.

Just a bunch of thoughts, somebody with actual herbology knowledge might know what plant does what

[Udgard]

I personally think we should keep herbs name or description vague/general (no specific item for each and every kind of herb), simply because there are just so many kinds of herbs. Having too many specific resource will just cause confusion and clutter the inventory.

Even with just a limited amount of resource that is gatherable and a tool to "sort"/specify it, I think it would still create too many item types.

I agree with herb types instead, and with no separation device to use them but straight into a processing tool. The herb processing tool I wrote on the cauldron thread runs along this idea (Although I used various colored herbs to substitute for a "type". My reasoning is with color coding, for example you could use a certain herb for a healing effect at one time, and for poisonous effect the other type. A little degree of vagueness so a certain type of herb won't be overused when future recipes appear. For example if many healing-type recipes appear, healing type herbs would be under a sudden increase in demand).

[b]
Summary for those who don't want to read[/b](stealing this from SS ): keep herb types general, and straight to processing tool that produces either final product (simple consumables, like tea, cigars) or semi-procesed materials for more complex products (potions, poison, etc).

[Muratus del Mur]

the recipes and cauldron devices can still use specifically named herbs and what is loaded in the device can be of generic form. For example recipe can require "Metrabalaportocala Spices" but it will actualy require the resource "Aromatic herbs" (general name) processed from "herbs" (even more general resource). The rarity of some specific herbs will not exist , but a "rare" type of herbs could be added to add to the mix.

It all makes perfect sense for me. I still need type suggestions to continue the current "spices/aromatic herbs","tea leaves" series. Lets think, what other general categories are missing ...

[Udgard]

Hallucinogents/mind affecting (nightshade! definitely have a gathering spot for one on UG ), healing/anti-toxin, toxic/poisonous..

Another idea, why not make herbs gathering random instead? So a place will only have "herb" on the scene list, but when harvested randomly gives a specific type of herb. You could even play with the chances based on herb rarity and locations too (or even other factor, like weather, number of resource left, viscosity).

[Muratus del Mur]

yes, the tool can collect a random herb type from the base "herbs" resource.

so far we have:
"Aromatic herbs"
"Tea leaves"
"Toxic plants"


Note: if i ignore other sugestions you made about the types means i dont want to use them not that i cant read:D . Toxic covers halucinogenic and healing is a property of many including tea leaves aromatic but also of the toxic in some cases (yeah)

[Udgard]

*wonders where poisonous tea with good aroma falls on )

How about stimulants? Things such as cannabis and the like, that stimulates physical performance in certain areas but might have certain side effects (though this could be covered on aromatic/poisonous, I guess). Herbs can also be used to make dye, so maybe a "dyeing herbs"? And.. spices?

[Phantom Orchid]

[quote name='Muratus del Mur' timestamp='1311348592' post='88589']
Toxic covers halucinogenic and healing is a property of many including tea leaves aromatic but also of the toxic in some cases (yeah)
[/quote]

I work with herbs in RL, and this makes perfect sense - for the only difference between medicine and poison is dosage.

Paracelsus, sometimes called the father of toxicology, wrote: "All things are poison, and nothing is without poison; only the dose permits something not to be poisonous."

One other suggestion for 'bases' is to break it down by parts of plants:

Roots
Bark
Leaves
Flowers
Fruits

[Shadowseeker]

"Aromatic herbs"
"Tea leaves"- add tobacco to this category, I'm rather sure I saw cigars around. I would call it "Luxury leaves"
"Toxic plants"

I would extend this by:

"Medical plants" (If you have poison, you also should have medicine)

This sums it up pretty well, either they are for food, luxury, medicine or poison.

[Handy Pockets]

I think berries could be added to Phantom Orchids list of parts of plants to use (I see this is fruit, this fading in and out is getting to me)

Blackberry

Leaves were used to treat wounds.

Blackberries- in olden days gave protection if gathered at the right time of the moon.

Fiber from stem to make twine.

The Thorny canes can make a barricade around something to give some protection.

A dye from the the berries.

Other valuable berries (particle list)
raspberries
elderberries
Goji

Edited July 22, 2011 by Handy Pockets

[Master]

Oh, Finally !
Long Live the Nightshade !!!
Oh, please , PLEASE, let me be the Nightshade gathering ...... OMG ..... free stashes forEVER !! ... OMG !!!

[Menhir]

What a beautiful idea. I was waiting for something like this, a role in MD I could imagine to be a part of.

I´m not really working with herbs like Phantom Orchid but I have a lot in my garden and I do self-made herb-tours in our nearby forests.

So far I would not go to far with to many different sorts of herbs the named above are fine and good enough from my point of view. The only thing I would consider is the rarity of them, lets say you have 5 different types (classes) of herbs and in every type you have how many herbs - 2 or 3? In the end that´s a lot - I can imagine a market only for herbs full of names and usages. Maybe too much. But If you have 3 different rarities rare/uncommon/common then you still have the same amount of different names but less chaos in the market or the recipes.

He are my thoughts sorted:

1. make 3-5 classes for herbs
2. not more that 3 herbs per class
3. give them a rarity - rare / uncommon / common
4. only 2 tools - one for gathering (you need to cut herbs nothing more) the other one for processing
5. processing - drying could be age/days - no tool needed
- cutting - no tool at all I always use my hands
- for the poisonous herbs create one rare special tool only a few in the realm
- nothing more is need to implement them into the recipes
6. mode of action - as already mentioned this is connected with the type of concentration of every herb you are using, either healing/poisoning/
nourishing/strengthening/weakening
7. end products - I would suggest to keep an eye on the rarity and concentration (like in homeopathy) of the herbs and we will have interesting products who everyone will use and on the other side very rare poisons (I think of assassins huhu) and very strong but rare healing potions
8. I would not create effects coming from herbs wich are permanent

Thats it for now.
If there are more information needed when it come to names or special effects I am willing to use my knowledge and time to do enough research on the wanted subjects.

Menhir

[Fyrd Argentus]

How about this - you go to the "herb patch" and as part of the gathering process you state what sort of herb you pick, and thereby what tag the herbs you are gathering will have.

Each "bundle" of herbs you carry would then have a different tag giving its name (text string). Handle sort of like ID numbers.

Cauldron looks at the tag that the bundle carries to see if it has the right name.

An herb would only have a name in raw form. Recipes and tools would exist in wide variety to convert them to something useful.

You could let ANYBODY collect herbs, no tool required, but to convert to something useful takes skill/equipment/knowledge.

Edited July 22, 2011 by Fyrd Argentus

[Seigheart]

Yes, I don't see why we need a tool to collect herbs.

It's not like Water, Memory Stones, Wood, or Heat right? Where ACTUAL tools are needed.

Sure you can use a pair of shears and get more herbs faster, but at the same time, you can just pluck them from the plant.

Identifying the herbs is what will require skill, and knowledge.

Edited July 22, 2011 by Vicarious

[Menhir]

[quote name='Vicarious' timestamp='1311361371' post='88618']
Identifying the herbs is what will require skill, and knowledge.
[/quote]

Absolutely Yes. But maybe it´s interesting to have some sort of dangerous herbs wich you should better not touch. Only a thought.

[xrieg]

I would suggest keeping the number of herb classes as low as possible - currently there is very limited number of resources and making 90% of resources just different herbs would make MD something of a cuisine game. The very high level classification of herbs in game mechanics (like Mur's "Aromatic herbs" "Tea leaves" "Toxic plants") should suffice. On the other hand recipes could employ various herbs names that translate to "Aromatic herbs" - and recipes could be nice anyway without going into gadzillons of different resources.
Colection: basic tools.... to be crafted from the cauldron :-) (i.e. shears)
[b]Summary:[/b] just a few basic herbs resource types and translation table for cauldron recipes.

Edited July 22, 2011 by xrieg

[Muratus del Mur]

herbs will be in large quantities, after gatjering them, or while gathering them, many will go wasted. I need a good name for useless unidentified herbs, basically field flowers and grass that becomes hay, sort of. Its not hay..i cant find a word for it. In this way you could waste very large quantities of gathered plants to find a rare herb (need a name too)

halucinogens and canabis and such are in the toxic section. wouldnt be fair to make 25% of md plants for smoking lol.

"flowers" can be a category too, could extend use of herbs a lot.


for gathering you will need a tool , at least to hold them. There will be baskets, unless better idea comes up. I want herbs to be the most accessible resource, so these tools will be crafted from other resources, unlimitedly. Will be nice to see what happens when anyone could eventually get a tool..there are major consequences you probably don't realise yet.

I placed the herbs in lr, the way to the archives and surroundings , outside MB and in the tribunal. More will be placed later

herbalism skill will determine successfull identification rate

[Hedge Munos]

Does the word compost work? Or maybe humus? (No, not hummus, humus.)

And, there could be 3 categories of herbs, for example. Then once they're collected, certain people can organize them into smaller groups. Categories could be: Culinary, Medicinal, Humus/Compost - I'm not sure how you want to go about the herbs you don't want, though. Rumi could be involved with collecting herbs if he wanted, since he's the one that came up with the Community Garden idea, I believe. I haven't spoken to him about this at all, however. The herbs could be available at the Meeting of the Roads to add to the garden, perhaps.

Baskets would probably be best for collecting them, but pruners could be used as well. Perhaps pruners could be used for seperating the herbs further, into smaller groups, such as herb names. Let me know what you think,

Hedge

[Phantom Orchid]

[quote name='Muratus del Mur' timestamp='1311365693' post='88628']

I need a good name for useless unidentified herbs, basically field flowers and grass that becomes hay, sort of. Its not hay..i cant find a word for it. In this way you could waste very large quantities of gathered plants to find a rare herb (need a name too)

for gathering you will need a tool , at least to hold them. There will be baskets, unless better idea comes up.

[/quote]


Useless unidentified herbs = weeds.

However, the term 'weed' is highly subjective. Many consider dandelion a prolific weed and go at great lengths to poison the soil in futile attempts to get rid out it. But is a remarkable medicinal plant - the roots are used as a natural diuretic (to lower blood pressure) and liver protection. The leaves are good to stimulate digestion. It has other magical powers too.

Tools = digging stick, knife, scythe to harvest; basket to collect; drying rack/potion/solution to preserve.

[Laphers]

This is a bit off the cuff and possibly not really well thought out but bear with me. What if MP6 was given the ability to teach herb knowledge to MP3-5? MP3 could learn 1 herb(common), MP4 learns 2(common, uncommon) and MP5 learns 3 herbs(common, uncommon, rare). Then when they go out gathering with the collecting item they have a higher probability of getting that/those herb(s). It could allow for random herb finding but with skewed probabilities. Perhaps this could apply to processing herbs as well.

[lone wolf pup]

What about baskets and such breaking after x amount of usage? >> Since it will probably be many made with baskets and such that can be given out to the common fokes! More of so, if a person who get's the tool abuses it to deplete all area of herbs people will know not to give another basket to such a player.