Demotion of Phantom Orchid

[xrieg]

MD is human run, with posiotions of authority held by active players and game creator who is also heavily in-game involved (permanent beta version). It is and will be based on trust that the authority is not abused - but this trust can be only based on facts. MD is less a community than strongly hierarchized society in many respects.The discussion about dst and Phantom Orchid is about the hierarchy: whether is is to organize and develop the realm... or just a court with no real rules - and with dos and don'ts on case-by-case basis defined mostly by your position in pecking order. This is an image issue - and it's difficult to convince new players to become heavily engaged in MD (but also - to keep older players from getting frustrated) when perception is that the game is not fair (whatever fair means) and second description fits MD better. Nobody questions every decision everybody with authority does - but with few questions asked with many ppl asking, every answer 'I do not have to answer you and I will not' does not serve the image well.
BTW I do not think dst's and Phantom Orchid's cases discussed here are comparable, dst's case is minor - even if I agree it should have been addressed

[duxie]

[size=3][font=verdana,geneva,sans-serif]i don't understand... if you want things to run "fair" (satisfy the community), you should put responsible persons by voting, and there should be at least 3 of them trying to find some consensus in verdict of a crime. i don't know the hierarchy of MD LHO, but it seems like the council is made up this way. now the question is why there's a need for inquisitor and who made this role as it is? i guess the answer is clear, so it works as intended. i'm not judging neither dst, nor Orchid, nor Grido (who am i to do so, hehe), just stating the fact (sorry for newbies): this doesn't smell like democracy - deal with it.[/font][/size]

[Pipstickz]

[quote name='Grido' timestamp='1317229298' post='92735']
I repeat that the role of an LHO expects that she should realise an exploit when seen.
[/quote]
It is [b]NOT[/b] an LHO's job to be a bug tester.
_______________________________________________________________________________

[quote name='Grido' timestamp='1317229298' post='92735']
First clearing up the dst incident, the actions she undertook were within the rules of the game, yes she annoyed people, yes she used the item to silence seig (it was him, right?). She annoys a lot of people, a lot of people would probably go as far as saying they hated her. What she did whilst borderline was within the rules of the game, though she did receive a private punishment, she has since also been punished by Mur for her cumulative behaviour - I would expect this to happen again for a longer period of time if she continues to act similarly. Since the event there has even been an announcement posted;
""[color=#CCCCCC]Ann. 2020 - [2011-09-21 17:25:32 - Stage 11][/color]
...Like with any other item or ability, you are free to use it as you wish when you wish.""
But I reiterate, there was a private punishment. It was not ignored.
[/quote]

You can quote mine announcements, so can I:

[quote][color=#CCCCCC]Ann. 1648 - [2010-10-30 21:28:49 - Stage 10][/color]
The abuse of a privilege will lead to it being lost.
[/quote]

And also, from the announcement ABOUT the sewing kit:
[quote][color=#CCCCCC]Ann. 1626 - [2010-09-28 02:05:26 - Stage 10][/color]
Those that will be using it are asked to remember that this is [u]intended to be used to prevent abuse[/u] and as an intermediate level of punishment before jail/ban. It should not be used for fun.
[/quote]
Mouth Sewing Kit is an administrative tool in the same way ban/unban spells are, simply less harsh. Would you use ban on someone because they teleported you to Tunnel of War?
_______________________________________________________________________________

[quote name='Grido' timestamp='1317229298' post='92735']
The distinction between dst and Phantom Orchid is that selling bugs and exploits is one of the many unwritten rules, one of the most known ones as well. An LHO is an elevated position within the game, they are given spells, and authority to guide new players. In my opinion the position of an LHO has a trust-able image, and also a knowledgeable one - they should be aware of selling bugs and exploits being against the rules, and also how to recognise what one is.
I reference [u][url="http://magicduel.com/players/I%20am%20Bored"]IaB's Profile[/url][/u] - where Mur has edited into his Game Mechanics shop that it's closed. I'm sure there's a clearer example of Mur saying it, but I can't currently find one.
[/quote]
The difference between IAB and Phantom Orchid is that Mur gave IAB a warning in a private manner (his papers, which IAB could alter) because it is, apparently, an unwritten rule, and IAB had the chance to comply, and he did. You, on the other hand, went all out on Phantom. An LHO is a volunteer who is meant to help younger players because they want to, not because they will receive spells and authority in return. I'm sure you'd like to correct me just like you arrogantly "corrected" Lashtal, but I'll have none of it.
_______________________________________________________________________________

[quote name='Grido' timestamp='1317233033' post='92741']
I am perfectly answerable for my actions, I haven't said it for a while, but it stands as true that if anyone has issues with what I do, or how I do them you are welcome to message the council, or Mur.
[/quote]
As I've also stated in my hate page, I personally believe that anything to do with you should go through the community (ie. a poll) before it hits the Council, and then they can enforce our decision if you will not comply. Now I'm not the only person speaking out against the way you run your [b]administative[/b] position, and if you continue in the same fashion, the numbers will only grow.
If you continue to simply say "Go see the council and if they tell me to do stop I will", it will be clear to me that you really don't care for the community, only for yourself and your power. Please, Grido, give me reason to believe that is not true.

There we go, done with my edits.

Edited September 28, 2011 by Pipstickz

[Blood Prince]

[quote name='Grido' timestamp='1317233033' post='92741']

Yes, I have conflicts of interest, so does every other player that has lived or will lived.

[will finish this later if required]
[/quote]

Everybody has conflicts of interest, nice defense. Magnitude of conflict of interest is what matters. Looking at your magnitude of the same offense I think you are very lucky to be in the position you are which reigns power. I don't know why most of the others don't see this.

Also I would like to know how did you collect evidence against Phantom Orchid?

BP

Edited September 29, 2011 by Blood Prince

[Amoran Kalamanira Kol]

It is to my understanding that Phantom Orchid was linked to an exploit and was not told that it was a bug in the system, or that it was a specific exploit. However, she sold this exploit to lashtal of his own request, and it is apparent that Lashtal, nor the one who held the auction, or Phantom Orchid knew that this particular link was an exploit.

Now, it is perfectly fair that she was punished for this, but what I fail to understand is why she was not granted the respect of a conversation regarding this event before she was punished. It came to my attention from a series of messages from Orchid herself that she was not aware that this was an exploit.

Instead of giving her the respect of hearing her side of the story regarding the exploit, she was simply punished and humiliated through a public post and stripped of her newly gained LHO status.. I'm sorry, but that is not the way to handle this sort of thing.

I bring into question as well, that there is another LHO who has done much worse in regards to breaking the rules. Yet she still remains with her spells and LHO status despite being jailed.

I mean not to attack this particular LHO, or attack you (Grido) for doing what you have done- but I cannot bring myself to be quiet about this.

[size=2][i]Edit: Edited to fix an error in a sentence.[/i][/size]

Edited September 29, 2011 by Amoran Kalamanira Kol

[BFH]

(Writing in another sleepy night, so forgive errors and such)

Aren't we making too much of this situation? We speak, speak, speak, and we aren't letting the chance to Orchid, the one affected, to speak... Maybe she have a fair understandable explanation.

@Pipz- I think you are merging other things with this specific case. My point of view is that those should be handled apart, or merge all and start a trial if that's what you want.

But, my opinion is that we aren't really contributing to anything right now...

Again, I think we need to give Orchid the space she deserves to speak.

~BFH

[Again i tell all of this without any intentions to offend or such or whatsoever.)

[Curiose]

BFH, it shouldn't matter if she's given the right to speak. It's not like she was given it before she was punished, so why let her speak now?

[Pipstickz]

She can speak if she wishes, no matter what any of us say, BFH.

[Grido]

Tarq, It is very clear that people have an issue with dst, if you want her demoted from LHO, you also want BFH, and Shadowseeker demoted - they've also been to jail and remained as LHO for the duration of it. The two offences you list dst as having committed are fairly objective, the causes for this by the player are what the player is like (generally), their personality and such. She has had a cumulative sentence from Mur, is it being suggested that I don't allow her to be an LHO because of her personality, because of who she is?

Different crimes or rule breaks receive different punishment, spreading an exploit (known or not) is a worse one than what dst did. There are certain things LHOs are expected to know, Phantom Orchid either didn't know what an exploit was, or knowingly sold one - if statements in this thread are to be believed then she wasn't aware, either way, a player should learn what an exploit is, or that they shouldn't sell them, before becoming an LHO.

When I accept applications from anyone (MP4+), and happily discuss through things to improve their abilities as an LHO, suggest to them to talk to LHOs about how they're performing so that they can receive constructive criticism, when I ask all the LHOs opinions on future LHOs before accepting or turning down an application - I'm being corrupt and favoured towards the elite?

---

Duxie, the hierarchy of LHO is Me at the top, then the other LHOs on equal footing with each other, they have different skills and knowledge sets so I'd refer players in certain directions rather than generally if need be, they all have the same core knowledge though.
The background to it isn't really recorded far as I know (someone point me if it is, I'd like to read), but Jonn was the first Inquisitor, I believe he picked the title, Mur making him in charge of the LHOs - I wasn't active over that period so I can't really explain better. I then took over from him by his and Mur's agreement when Jonn decided to leave MD.
Having a single figure in charge means there is one person Mur can contact if something needs to be done, and also, like you say so it works as intended. MD isn't a democracy, Mur has said it many times, the LHO system isn't either, I'm a dictator, I'm just generally a nice one.

---

Pip, I never said LHOs were bug testers, they don't test bugs, but if they see one, they should know it's a bug, report it to someone who ~is~ a bug tester/council so that it can be tested.

I think you missed the part where I said I'd punished her? The announce I posted was after the incident, just trying to put a thought of Mur, that's all. I'm also pretty sure that dst didn't use it for "fun" but in retaliation.
I'm really not at all sure what relationship the instance has with banning someone for teleporting me to tunnel of war - it has nothing to do with anything. But for the record, no I wouldn't ban someone for that.

I wasn't so much comparing the events of IaB and Phantom Orchid, I was stating where it was written, like you asked me to provide - An example of where Mur has stated selling them is against the rules.

The references you've made in your hate page against me (and this is getting very offtopic, up to another mod if they want to do anything) are mainly things you disagree with me on, not actually negative things I've done.
I would like to ask what you would ask me to do (other than stepping down - I won't unless Mur/Council/LHOs think I'm doing a bad job at it) that would give you a reason to believe it's not true.

---

BP, I am VERY fortunate to be in the position I am, I'm well aware of this.
As for how I collected the evidence (you seem to have completely removed that in the edit of your previous post, and I forgot to say it), a player informed me of a PM conversation they were havng with Lashtal where the details were listed. As Phantom Orchid was an LHO at the time they decided to tell me so that I was aware, they then screenshotted the message conversation for me so that I had a copy of it. I had hoped that Phantom would be online to talk to at the time (to prepare her for what I was about to do), but she was not and I felt I should act right away.
Since this topic was opened, I have received two other people asking me if it was them involved. One of which has confirmed that the same exploit was sold to them, and the other I have been informed through other sources that the same exploit was sold to them as well - this person has not confirmed with me, but did start an initial conversation.
I think that's it in full, I'll add other information if I recall anything.

---

Amo, this is why I asked her to contact me about how she found out, if the person who sold/gave it to her was also unaware of the description of an exploit, and also if she actually asked anyone if it was allowed.

It is unfortunate that she was not online when I was informed of all this, as I said earlier, I would have spoken to her to prepare her for what I was going to do.

Her side of the story would not have affected my judgement, I may have just added a paragraph into the initial post stating she wasn't aware it was an exploit. She still acted how she did, ignorance of rules doesn't exempt you from them.

If you refer to dst's harrassment etc, what Phantom did was worse by way of rule breaking.

---

[Seigheart]

Another quick question:

Since when is driving players out of the game through harassment not as serious of an offense as selling an unexploitable exploit?

If anything, I would take that more seriously, because you can't reverse the damage one does through harassment, exploits, especially ones that can't be exploited, can be reversed.

By the way, dst's jail time was a "cummulative punishment for her way of causing scandals, not for commiting an actual crime."

This means dst was NOT punished for her LHO Administrative Item Abuse, but for her constantly starting witch hunts, and publically humliating people.

[Pipstickz]

[quote name='Grido' timestamp='1317297682' post='92819']
Pip, I never said LHOs were bug testers, they don't test bugs, but if they see one, they should know it's a bug, report it to someone who ~is~ a bug tester/council so that it can be tested.
[/quote]
And where do they receive the knowledge that bugs are bugs? Does it say anywhere that LHOs are required to have bug knowledge? And, if you expect them to have such knowledge, why do you let them in if they do not?

[quote name='Grido' timestamp='1317297682' post='92819']
I think you missed the part where I said I'd punished her? The announce I posted was after the incident, just trying to put a thought of Mur, that's all. I'm also pretty sure that dst didn't use it for "fun" but in retaliation.
[/quote]
So it's just fine to use LHO tools for personal arguments?

[quote name='Grido' timestamp='1317297682' post='92819']
I'm really not at all sure what relationship the instance has with banning someone for teleporting me to tunnel of war - it has nothing to do with anything. But for the record, no I wouldn't ban someone for that.
[/quote]
It is a comparison where tunnel of war and silence are lesser abilities and ban and sewing kit are used in retaliation.

[quote name='Grido' timestamp='1317297682' post='92819']
I wasn't so much comparing the events of IaB and Phantom Orchid, I was stating where it was written, like you asked me to provide - An example of where Mur has stated selling them is against the rules.
[/quote]
So now LHOs are required, without knowing that they are, to read IABs papers?

[quote name='Grido' timestamp='1317297682' post='92819']
The references you've made in your hate page against me (and this is getting very offtopic, up to another mod if they want to do anything) are mainly things you disagree with me on, not actually negative things I've done.
I would like to ask what you would ask me to do (other than stepping down - I won't unless Mur/Council/LHOs think I'm doing a bad job at it) that would give you a reason to believe it's not true.
[/quote]
In other words, you're saying "Lalala, I will only listen to people with more power than me, lalala"
Your comments here on my hate page ARE off-topic, and don't relate to what you are replying to, or the general topic at hand.

[Curiose]

Alright then. If Dst's harassment isn't going through to you, then how about the harassment that Jester has done to other players in the past? Or Fenrir?

Harassment is a psychological scar. Selling a bug is physical, and can be REPAIRED easily. The psychological scar? Hardly as easy.

Those players I listed above did more than what Phantom Orchid did as an LHO. They stole, harassed, cheated and ultimately, scarred some players in this game, as did the other past 'harassers' of MD. Yet you took them with more seriousness than do you Dst's. Her behavior is akin to what they did, albeit a bit more minor. HOWEVER, that DOES NOT excuse anything of that sort to allow her to publicly humiliate, abuse her powers, and overall HUNT people down to get her way. That, is harassment and THAT should be taken seriously.

My respect is slowly dwindling for you, Grido, however that for the MD community is rising because they are standing up against something that IS NOT right and you damned well know it's not right. You know you're playing favorites, and you know that you're doing things just because you want to, not because of what's best for the community. Maybe for once, if you listened to the community, instead of looking at things with black and white, then you'll have more leniency, and maybe, a bit of sense when it comes to cases like this.

Overall, Dst's abuse > Phantom Orchids.

[Grido]

Seig, The objective nature of the rule means that it would take a few people to discuss the intricacies of it, and the effects of her actions. In other words, it's not for me to judge on the harassment front there was a punishment for that announced though. My private punishment is completely separate from this and was for the use of the chat ban item.

---

Pip, in a dictionary, don't be dense. Actually yes, on the info for applying to LHO page on the attic cord it states under requirements; "A thorough knowledge of the game and its rules." Bugs and exploits would fall into this category. I would expect them to be aware of such, so I tend not to ask them.

I didn't say that, you misread me.

Well it's a bad comparison.

You seem to misunderstand me. You asked for an official reference, I gave you one. LHOs are meant to realise what bugs and exploits are, and not to sell them.

And now you ignore my inclusion of LHOs in the people I'd listen to about stepping down - I'd personally say they have less power than me, but because of my role in relation to them, if they think I've been acting wrongly I would listen to them.
I was replying to your comment about your hate page...

---

Curi, to be as polite as possible, what the hell do the other cases have to do with this?
I've responded patiently to the comments about dst, fine she's an LHO, she did something wrong, etc etc. But now you're bringing other people into this that really have nothing at all to do with Phantom Orchid.
This thread is NOT about dst, it's about Phantom Orchid.

I'm sorry, but please shut up. My dealing with Phantom Orchid would be the same had it been any other LHO. My dealing with dst (the punishment) would have been the same had it been any other LHO, the thread by seig said he didn't need to know what it was, so I didn't say.
Do not think to know me or how my mind works, from your post, you clearly do not.

Dst's situation had, and has, nothing to do with Phantom Orchid's.

[Pothos]

I do Beleive this has all been blown out of preportions again.

Grido or DST, simply state what the punishment was. {edit} This will solve the problem of people complaining about it {edit}

Everyone else, please stay on topic, and the topic is the punishment of Phantom orchid, which can include wether or not it is apropriate for the crime. Personally, I say she should have warning, and have this happen the next time, but that's just me. I tend to be more leinient that some others.

As for the ENTIRE dst conversation.. Make a topic for it, and hash it out there.

For the ENTIRE Grido conflict, including the hate page of Pipstick, again I say to make a forum for it, and hash it out there.

Edited September 29, 2011 by Pothos

[Curiose]

It shouldn't matter, Grido.

It's called bringing in EXAMPLES of past things to prove to you that you ARE inconsistent in your ways. You CLEARLY don't understand, either, that not just me, but EVERYONE else on this forum seems to think that YOUR actions are inconsiderate and thus favoriting your buddy.

If you can't handle critisism, then why the hell are you an LHO?

[Phantom Orchid]

Oh how much has transpired in my absence!

I will speak directly to Grido, but this will also serve as a public response to my very public demotion.

Grido,

My trust and confidence in you has waned, and not because of the demotion. Specifically, it is because you did not show respect for me by speaking directly with me. You did not even bother to write a PM to me. I must say that anyone in the helping profession knows that, to retain someone else's confidence and maintain trust, it is -essential- to speak directly with them regarding any issues of behavior that comes up. And the quickest way to lose confidence and trust is to act without first speaking directly, and perhaps even daring to listen to what the other might have to say. Unless, of course, one no longer desires to maintain relational equity with the other.

Had you asked, I would have told you what I thought - that the 'exploit' a) is old and very well known b) was shared with me by a current LHO c) has an inaccessible restricted section within it (which in and of itself led me to the conclusion that it was not a bug, because there was an inaccessible section contained within it). I did not view it as much of an exploit, but perhaps that is because my tech skills are -very- limited.

I want you to know that if you would have spoken with me directly, I would have, if given an explanation, voluntarily resigned from the LHO position - without hesitation.

I no longer have stars next to my name, which I accept, but I will not stop helping new players and providing what guidance I may. Nothing has changed for myself, except for a few less spells ( which I can mostly make up for by spending WPs) and less visibility (it will be harder for new players with questions to find me).

[Rendril]

[quote name='Grido' timestamp='1317315362' post='92860']
Dst's situation had, and has, nothing to do with Phantom Orchid's.
[/quote]
What is under question is not the alleged crimes but your handling of them.

[Passant the Weak]

Reading all that stuff I would just like to give one comment from a youngling. The comment is not on the alleged crimes, nor on the punishments, as i have no idea about those, but about the way they are handled.

My comment, that is merely a suggestion: Whatever punishment is given by a player that has power, i suggest it is send out to the "criminal" with a reasonible deadline to allow him to answer/comment before it is made public.

In POE case, that would mean for example:
- demote her from LHO status if that seems so important to do it immediatly after the "crime" is discovered
- send her a notification via PM ingame and on forum
- wait before making it public (a reasonable delay in my opinion is a couple days) that she answers the notification
- decide afterwards if that shall be made public or not

I am quite sure that doing so would have avoided 90% of the comments posted in that thread. And the post from POE seems to confirm so.

In all humility.

~The Weak, a Passer by

[Grido]

Phantom, I do apologise, sincerely, for not sending you a message or something letting you know. As I have previously stated I did look for you online but you were absent, which was unfortunate. Personally I felt it would have been impersonal and dispassionate to send you a message stating things to which you wouldn't be able to respond to anyway - evidently you feel otherwise, so I apologise for that.

An exploit is you doing something not normally allowed by the game interface (or there abouts, not a full definition). Age of it doesn't matter, nor does how well known it is, the reason it's so well known is because people keep spreading it around like they shouldn't be. The inaccessible section doesn't rather imply you shouldn't be there at all?

I will speak about this with you when we can.

---

Ren, that may be the case, but it was never what this thread was about, I believe Pip opened a new thread to talk about me - I haven't read it yet though.

---

With the opening of the thread to [url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/10679-grido/"]discuss me and my actions[/url], along with Phantom responding to this thread, I would think maybe that there is no need for further posts from anyone - except perhaps Phantom herself if she chooses.

[Firsanthalas]

Grido,

I don't want to get into who did what or he said she said.
But, in very basic terms it seems that you dismissed POE for shall we say: Conduct Unbecoming an LHO.
Now, we can argue over the wherefores and whys, but essentially that is in essence why she was demoted.
It seems to me that most of the people posting on this thread feel that other LHOs are perhaps guilty of the same offence (not the same crime or anything, but Conduct Unbecoming).
I want to say something about my view on LHOs before going further.
I see LHOs as being a very important part of MD. I think that overall they do a good job and most likely a job that can perhaps feel thankless or demanding at times.
However, LHOs do get rewards for this. You can say it is little or no reward, but there is one there. LHOs by virtue of the role they perform, become the fist point of contact for a lot of people in MD. This in itself its own advantages. Like it or not, the actions of LHOs give an impression of MD. Even if an LHO does something, not as an LHO, it still can reflect on the image of LHOs.
It is a simple fact of life that if someone goes to jail in real life, they will tend to be mistrusted by other people, regardless of the offence they went to jail for or even if it subsequently arises that they were innocent.
Some people may feel that LHOs should not be trading creatures to newbies or at all. You could also argue that it is unfair to restrict LHOs from such activities. I am not saying what is right or wrong.
What I am saying though is it seems that there is an issue with what conduct is acceptable and what isn't for an LHO.
Perhaps that should be addressed?

On a completely personal note, (but not related to the fact that it was POE, I'd say this regardless of the person involved) I think removing someone from their position publicly, without speaking to them first is poor form. I understand that POE was not around, but surely it could have waited a few more days before you took action? And if POE is correct, you could have at least taken the time to write to her personally.
Regardless, you acted before giving POE any chance to state her side of things and again I find that to be poor form.

I'm sorry about this coming across as a personal attack. And I am aware that some people will probably say that I am simply sticking up for POE. The fact is that I am not questioning your decision to remove her. What I am questioning is the manner in which it was done and the obvious questions this issue has raised with regards to LHO conduct and punishment.

Perhaps a positive outcome for this would be for people to have some say on how they feel LHOs should behave and what is or is not acceptable?

I also don't agree with an LHO being punished or admonished even, because of one or two people complaining. Some people will inevitably complain because of personal gripes/issues or misunderstandings.

However, what is the number of complainants needed before an LHO may be spoken to or action taken against them?

Also, should the general public have an opportunity to have a say in regards to a person being made LHO in advance of it happening? It might help to avoid some of the current issues.


I accept that I come across as poking my finger at you personally here. But I feel that I am not alone in the questions that I have here and I have tried to at least open up avenues that may need to be looked at for the future, rather than simply screaming about what has just happened.

I'll finish by saying that LHOs are human and make mistakes. Overall people do need to realise this and cut them some slack and not want their head, for any and every mistake made.

[Seigheart]

[quote name='Phantom Orchid' timestamp='1317344312' post='92902']
Had you asked, I would have told you what I thought - that the 'exploit' a) is old and very well known b) [b]was shared with me by a current LHO[/b] [/quote]

I wonder if anyone else caught this? I believe this needs to be addressed as well.

[Grido]

I had, I was going to bring it up when I spoke to her.