Grido's Actions

[Pipstickz]

Yrth: If Phantom's waiting is a problem, then why isn't Grido's?

[Maebius]

[quote name='Yrthilian' timestamp='1318234563' post='93704']
I dont know why you waited that long and decided to use this as a fight agents Grido.
...
It is easy to find out the email for the council it has been given many times[/quote]

My opinion (which may be entirely inaccurate) is that perhaps with the "grido/PO" dramatics that had been going on lately, perhaps her case of harassment may have been preferred to be kept a bit less public, particularly since harassment itself is a more private matter that tends to get pretty emotionally invested.
Once when I was harassed in a totally unrelated game, I also sent am email to a "in charge" mail, and dropped my case for a while, not wishing to keep dredging it up personally.

So, trying to be unbiased here, Phamtom Orchid submitted a complaint to who she felt was the appropriate contact (leader of the LHOs), and was told "I'll pass it on to Mur". She had not heard back, so seems to drawthe matter into more public view, possibly to elicit a response more quickly. Yes, contacting Council may have been most appropriate as Mur is a busy man, I'm sure.
Still, I see nothing wrong with asking Grido in his official capacity, and then waiting 44 days for a reply before "going up the ladder" to get the matter resolved.

If the public nature of the situation between Grido and PO colours this particular case, that's unfortunate, but as a stand-alone case of harassment and waiting, I can't see it an issue. She's merely asking for it to be addressed, in a more public manner. As BFH said, perhaps others are impacted, and never knew it until one voice starts to speak up. It happens.
It happened.
Now the appropriate parties are involved, and the case can be handled as needed.
I don't think the forum needs to be pulled into even more drama and debate, does it?

[Blood Prince]

I thought of replying to this post. But this not generally about Grido or to go against him but these are the reasons I see that has created this situation in the first place.

I have been in this game long enough (some people might say I was not an active role player bla bla bla but have seen me around well I survived for 964/1248 days and counting ) to know how it has changed for the worst. These are my views and other people in the game might have different views to these.

One problem I see is too much power is vested on a single player. I'm not talking about Mur I'm talking about the others. Power is open to abuse and that is what I'm seeing here with dst, Grido etc....[u] I do not mind people using power after they have attained them through the formal methods[/u](like getting into MP6 etc.. or winning contests) in the game. But I do not like people using power which is given to them to perform administrative tasks (LHO) or test (game testers) out features.

I agree with Pip on monopolizing stuff in MD (which I think should never happen). Memory stones have become a big business and it is configured in such away that only people with higher number of spells can actually cast them in which makes them real money spinners. Simply they control much of the wealth in MD. Which means they can do anything they want and get what ever they want for insane prices or very rare stuff and get away with anything. I liked the idea when Mur distributed reality coagulators and stone detectors for not so power hungry people like MoM, Aranna etc.... This actually did more good to the community and made certain resources available and did not charge insane prices for that like most of the veteran sellers do.

Majority of the community do not care power abuses and things such as POE case unless it happens to them. Then the victim will call foul in the open and the others (majority) who is not affected by these incidents says not my business/has not happened to me still or is trying to get even with the guy who gave the punishment.

As things are getting more and more insane and people who has power has everything and people who does not could barely survive. And with POE's new revelation of 44 days story it seems there is are problems which are swept under the carpet for a certain set of players and the others are publicly damned.

The game does not want to loose players, and if veterans are thinking of leaving citing these reasons other than the most common reason which is RL there is a serious problem somewhere.

Finally its very clear that people who have power wants to rein power and do not want others to get it. Their RL friends etc... can be given favors of any magnitude. So where are we heading??? We are heading to a day where most of MD is dead with only powerful people left. They too will quit once there is nobody to exercise there power. Which will render MD a thing in the past. MD is not a normal game which attracts any tom dick and harry so what we attracted we need to keep otherwise the doomsday will arrive much quickly than we think.

As Rendril said if the options in Pips vote was different then the result would have been different as well. So I do not agree with Chewett saying public as already spoken. I myself is undecided.

Edited October 10, 2011 by Blood Prince

[Phantom Orchid]

[quote name='Yrthilian' timestamp='1318234563' post='93704']
I dont know why you waited that long and decided to use this as a fight agents Grido.
[/quote]

The point is that I -trusted- Grido to effectively handle matters, or point me in the right direction if it was not something he could not help me with. Given his position, I thought that's what would happen.

Yrth, your post is full of assumptions about the reasons for my actions, and as with most assumptions, they are predicated on your judgment, what you -think- my reasoning was. If you have questions I'm happy to answer them in a PM, please don't publicly make assumptions about me or tell me what I -should- have done in your opinion. If I want your opinion I will ask for it.

I thought you were better than that...

[Shemhazaj]

[quote]your post is full of assumptions about the reasons for my actions, and as with most assumptions, they are predicated on your judgment[/quote]

[i][color=#808080]just a question, are you absolutely certain Grido didn't talk to the Council or Mur about this in the 44 days or are you just assuming that because you didn't get the reply?[/color][/i]
[i][color=#808080]because there might be more reason for the delay in resolving that issue.[/color][/i]
[i][color=#808080]I have no idea what those reasons are, I just know that assumptions are predicated judgment and that does not always make them true.[/color][/i]

[Phantom Orchid]

About a week ago Grido once again gave me the line "I will talk to Mur." A few days ago I wrote back, asking if anything was happening about this - no reply.

Shem, if I thought that there were possibly valid reasons for this inaction, I would not have made this post.

[Seigheart]

Phantom, I would like to suggest that you carry this forward with the Council, and ONLY the Council. This is a matter for them to resolve, where the community will only become more and more bitter with each other.

I know you are frustrated that such a serious offense has gone unattended for so long, but you should also know that some matters should be dealt with discretely. I see that you tried at first, but bringing attention to this matter like this is not appropriate.

I think we should all make it a habit of not naming people when starting threads of such nature. It's really getting to the point where every single one of these threads cause a Witch Hunt. The public scream, push, and shove each other until someone gets punished. ( I know I've been a part of that crowd several times, but this is me trying to get things to change so please be patient)

[Curiose]

Poe is not the ONLY person faced with the harassment by the same person, and EVERYONE involved still has not gotten a single answer as to what the outcome will be. If you dare to say that she was in the wrong for trusting someone that she believed would have taken care of the issue, then all of you who do have lost my respect.

She was not the only one who addressed this issue to Grido. -I- did so myself because -I- was a victim also and I stand by what Poe has stated. I lost my faith and trust in him.

Harassment is not something to take lightly. It does not matter if it was online or in person.

This is a widespread matter, yet it was not dealt with the urgency or care that every other case was treated with.

http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/10548-my-beef-with-md/page__fromsearch__1
if anyone has bothered to realize that THIS was what I was talking about, all you previous nay sayers are naught but hypocrites for finally coming to light about what has been happening.

[Grido]

Right, first off - what is the point of this thread? I don't mean that in a negative way, you are fully welcome to make whatever threads about me, I mean what do you want to get out of this thread? What is the aim of it? Be as clear and concise as you're able and I will try to suitably reply.

The discussion of what happened regarding Poe and her demotion is on another thread, if any of you wish to continue that discussion you are welcome to, I believe it's open, if it's not let a moderator know (not me due to conflict of interests, even though I would) and ask them to open it for you. I have stated there an apology to her and reasoning for how I acted.

Amoran, referencing the actual exploit that it was related to would then mean every LHO would then know it. As much faith I have in LHOs, I believe in not leading them into temptation by telling them an exploit then asking them not to use it.

Phantom, you did indeed, and I did as I said. I had managed to discuss much of the situation shortly before Mur went away (I mentioned that in the message - please check "04 September 2011 - 01:12 AM" if you can still view the message, as you deleted it). Following this, on his return I attempted to contact him on multiple occasions to conclude our discussion to little avail, Mur rarely shows online on yim, and also tends to be very busy regardless of online visibility - so you might imagine how difficult it can be to get hold of him. The reason why I didn't contact the Council myself was because of the initial conversation with Mur, we had discussed various options in that initial talk. As for not giving you the council email address, as has been previously stated, it is listed in a number of various places, including the forum if you use the [.council.] bb tag (without the full-stops).
The incident was not straight forward due to the involvement of a player's alts, hence no immediate action and such a discussion needing to take place. If Poe doesn't mind me naming the other player involved, my delayed action would probably make a lot more sense.


If people wish, I can make a list of every action I make as an LHO Manager (so no personal things like random trades et al). If there a desire for this?

[Pipstickz]

The problem here, Grido, is that you didn't tell Phantom "Mur is very busy right now", and actually explain it to her. Just saying "I will talk to Mur" over and over doesn't help anything.

[Grido]

Pip, the section I was referencing;
""I was discussing the matter with Mur, and obviously he's gone away for a little bit, so please be patient.""

and in the next message from me;
""I still haven't been able to catch Mur to talk about it. Mur pretty much always hiding offline on yim, or actually being offline makes it difficult""

Please ask questions before announcing uninformed opinions.

[Phantom Orchid]

As further proof of Grido's ineptitude, I received a PM today from a player who states:


[quote]I have spoken with Manu on several occasions since his return from his vacation. These conversations have been very short, about 20 minutes or so, to fairly long, lasting a couple of hours.

I don't talk to him every time he is online, but I've seen him on there many times in the last month.
This leads me to the conclusion that Grido isn't trying very hard to contact him - and, really, he's not that difficult to get a hold of - or he's lying about his attempts to contact him.

After all, if I can strike up a random conversation with him, someone who is not part of the general administration of MD, then I'm positive that someone like Grido could get his attention far more easily.[/quote]

[Grido]

Poe, I would like to re-iterate my previous request to state the name of the other player involved.

Has it occurred to you that perhaps the player who messaged you that, and myself, run on different schedules? That perhaps I wasn't online when Mur was on those occasions? Or on a more basic level that Mur knows when I talk to him it tends to involve my asking him to do stuff that his current mindset isn't at, so he doesn't reply to the attempt at conversation previously? Or on the few occasions I manage to speak to him he tells me directly that he's not in the mindset to talk about it? Or that he didn't get my offline messages, and as he didn't show online I wasn't to know he was then there? Or indeed that I wasn't online when he tried to reply to my offlines? Or...I don't know any of the other reasons you might be able to think of?

[Deatznce0]

[quote name='Yrthilian' timestamp='1318234563' post='93704']
I dont know why you waited that long and decided to use this as a fight agents Grido.
Now if grido did not report the issue then that is another matter.

This is yet another attack on Grido that you decided to use since he demoted you.
That is dont in very bad taste. [u][b]Tis lessens my view of you. I thought you where better than that.[/b][/u]
[u][b]It is a shame really.[/b][/u]

It is easy to find out the email for the council it has been given many times
it is public so not hard to find oh and a simple question is to ask on forms or in game
"What is the council's email address"

I am sorry but i am very disappointed in this if the issue you are saying is as bad as you say
then [u][i]why the hell did you wait 44DAYS[/i][/u]??????

So you can see why i [u][b]would think this you are making this personal[/b][/u].
[/quote]

[u][i]It seemed that PO waited 44 days because he/she thought that Grido was able to resolve the issue. As just a player, I would think that Grido; being the head of the LHO, would[/i][/u][i][u] have more of a chance of being able to contact the higher ups than the general population. [/u][/i]

I think my [b][u]Bold and underlined bits[/u][/b] speak for itself.

[quote name='Grido' timestamp='1318283345' post='93812']
Pip, the section I was referencing;
""I was discussing the matter with Mur, and obviously he's gone away for a little bit, so please be patient.""

and in the next message from me;
""I still haven't been able to catch Mur to talk about it. Mur pretty much always hiding offline on yim, or actually being offline makes it difficult""

Please ask questions before announcing uninformed opinions.
[/quote]

My question is why did you not contact the council yourself if you knew that Manu was busy?
And no, I mean no disrespect nor am I attacking you when asking this, it just seems like (or at least on the surface of things) that you reassured PO that you would personally resolve the issue and that PO should not need to go to another or contact anyone else him/herself.

[Grido]

[quote name='Grido' timestamp='1318277561' post='93801']The reason why I didn't contact the Council myself was because of the initial conversation with Mur, we had discussed various options in that initial talk.[/quote]

And whilst the conversation (and definitely my intention) said I would deal with it, and had it not been for the message between us having been deleted, and her saying that she'd passed it onto the council I still would work to sort it out - At no point was the council mentioned, let alone any mention of not telling them for whatever reason, by either side.

And re him/her bits, Poe is female.

[Mya Celestia]

[color=#008080][font=lucida sans unicode,lucida grande,sans-serif]Something I've noticed throughout all these threads is that people expect Grido to be able to fix things. He has a great deal of power--yes. He has access to Mur--yes. Does this mean he can snap his fingers and make Mur do things? Not in the least. How many times have any of us said or thought that we didn't want to deal with something regardless of how great or how small. Mur is likely to have days like that as well. When it comes down to it, Grido can't make Mur do anything. He can't make the council do anything either. If the identity of the offender is revealed, we all may understand why Grido went to Mur and why things may be delayed.[/font][/color]

[color=#008080][font=lucida sans unicode,lucida grande,sans-serif]As for the whole thing about contacting the council, check the bottom of the actual MD screen. Just like practically every other website out there the contact information is under [contact] at the bottom. Mur's email is there as well. [/font][/color]

[Phantom Orchid]

[quote name='Mya Celestia' timestamp='1318289266' post='93823']
[color=#008080][font=lucida sans unicode,lucida grande,sans-serif]When it comes down to it, Grido can't make Mur do anything. He can't make the council do anything either.[/font][/color]
[/quote]

I agree.

This was never, for me, an issue of Grido fixing the complaint I have about the other player, but about the trust I invested in him and the time squandered waiting for his proffered help.

In all of that time, that player (who I shall not name because he still deserves a fair and due process, if that does indeed exist in this game) has been left unaccountable for their actions, which increases the likelihood that similar behavior may be occurring against others.

But this thread is not about the issue, it is about how Grido has acted - or in this case, has not - as head LHO.

Edited October 10, 2011 by Phantom Orchid

[Curiose]

[quote]In all of that time, that player (who I shall not name because he still deserves a fair and due process, if that does indeed exist in this game) has been left unaccountable for their actions, which increases the likelihood that similar behavior may be occurring against others.[/quote]

It has already been proven that left unaccountable, said player will CONTINUE doing what they have done.

[Grido]

If you choose to ignore my posts I will repeat myself;

[quote name='Grido' timestamp='1318277561' post='93801']Right, first off - what is the point of this thread? I don't mean that in a negative way, you are fully welcome to make whatever threads about me, I mean what do you want to get out of this thread? What is the aim of it? Be as clear and concise as you're able and I will try to suitably reply.[/quote]

[Rumi]

[cquote]
There are several issues that we, the council would like to address.

The first being the issue of Phantom accusing Grido of not passing on her
problem with an individual. He did pass it on and this was passed onto
Mur.

There were some issues between Jester and Phantom, Both of who retaliated
to each other, and therefore both were at fault. It was reviewed several
times and decided that neither should receive punishment due to this
reason. The full reasons and details cannot be explained due the public
impact of some of the retaliation regarding Jester and Phantoms roles.
Because alts were used as extensions to support same incident, any
punishment applied to Jester will be applied to all his involved alts as
well. The fact a reaction was delayed for so long is the pure fault of bad
communication with Mur and passing around of a delicate matter with many
unseen reasons. Neither council nor Grido considered they should interfere
with applying a punishment that would have changed political structure
(Jester) or rare roles (Phantom Orchid), therefore Mur alone was supposed
to clear this situation, but didn't. Because this raised to a public
complain, an action will be take before the day of "Day of absurdly blind
justice". For future cases a strategy will be planned to handle similar
incidents in a quicker manner. It is important to mention that Grido was
not allowed to disclose any of the above reasons or say anything about why
the matter is delayed.
Also, it should be noted that Phantom has escaped jail using a spell which
should have been blocked. She did not report this, and since this is
another bug she has abused and not reported she will receive further
punishment

Jester will receive punishment for his role in this. An announcement with
the final punishment shall be made public in a few days.

Regarding Grido's public role.

Grido is one of the very few individuals to have the ability to jail and
unjail people. This ability is something that he has been trusted with by
Mur, and therefore it carries some weight. Grido is also head of the LHO's
and therefore he is allowed to deal with them as he feels fit. However if
the community feels that he is not doing a good job, or that there is
someone better than him, we shall look at possibly a change of leadership.
During this last issue, we have been checking the in game and forum
atmosphere in regards to Grido's role and the overwhelming consensus is
that he is a good LHO leader.

You should feel free to make public posts, regarding his role in the
forum, using polls to indicate the general feel of his ability. But lets
not create one every week or so, based on the same issues.

The mods should close this post if arguments continue.
Also, please be aware of the following:
When reporting any issues between players the council will ONLY take into
account details from within Magicduel's influence. That means anything
outside of Magicduel's influence will not be considered as proof of an
agreement or as proof of harassment.
The likes of YIM, Gtalk, MSN, or any other social network outside of the
control of Magicduel will not be considered. We ask that when you are
logging a complaint to NOT include any of those sort of logs other than
what is provided from the realm of MD.
If you are having issue with players on the other systems you need to
report that to they companies that run them.


MD Council
[/cquote]

[Phantom Orchid]

[quote name='Rumi' timestamp='1318508714' post='94021']
[cquote]
There were some issues between Jester and Phantom, Both of who retaliated
to each other, and therefore both were at fault. It was reviewed several
times and decided that neither should receive punishment due to this
reason.
[/cquote]
[/quote]



Perpetrators and victims of sexual harassment do -not- share culpability. Period.

Goodbye MD.

[phantasm]

victims of sexual harassment in MD...
*sings* don't want no drama drama....just hate that drama drama....

Don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya

[Fyrd Argentus]

Phantasm, your post is rather confusing on a sensitive issue. I do hope you are are not suggesting that victims of sexual harassment leave MD? Your post could easily be interpreted that way, and I suggest you clarify it.

[xrieg]

Hmm correct me if I am wrong... but it seems prolonged lack of action and reaction (at least some progress report) will render change of political structure/ roles anyway... Justified or not, some charges deserve swift actions - or at least communications about progress. In some aspects we all got used to MD's 'all in their own course and time' - but some charges should not work like some infamous beaurocracies.
Phantom Orchid had every right to expect some action... or at least feedback.

[Pothos]

[quote name='Fyrd Argentus' timestamp='1318519921' post='94028']
Phantasm, your post is rather confusing on a sensitive issue. I do hope you are are not suggesting that victims of sexual harassment leave MD? Your post could easily be interpreted that way, and I suggest you clarify it.
[/quote]
I beleive you are the only one confused. She is convinced that she is being punished because she was sexualy harrased, so is now saying she is leaving MD. Clear cut.

As for her 'sexualy harased being punished'. Get used to it. That's the way life works, You fought back, so you are getting punished. Truly it sucks, yes it's unfair, no that isn't how it should be, yes it's unjust. But that's how it is.

-edit- incase it is unclear, I am -not- suporting Phantom being punished, and I am absolutly not, beyond a shadow of a doubt, suporting jester. I am mearly pointing out that this is how life works. RL example: Kid gets jumped by 3 other kids, he fights back, and gets fined by the courts because he fought back.

Edited October 13, 2011 by Pothos