Teamwork Controversy, with a little Eon around the Corners

[Chewett]

[color=#0000ff]Split from http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/10933-taking-shared-tools/[/color]
[color=#0000ff]-Burns[/color]

[quote name='Blood Prince' timestamp='1321369829' post='95888']
Let me conclude with the following lines

"There was a thing called DOJO. Everybody supported it at the start then it became too power hungry and enforcing. Tested their power of spells a step too far and at the end of it DOJO was not existent."

It's high time we start doing something about this....
[/quote]

Actually in the End the Dojo turned into the Sparring ground, which is losely held together by people who still abide by its rules.

Edited November 17, 2011 by Burns

[Blood Prince]

[quote name='Chewett' timestamp='1321373704' post='95900']

Actually in the End the Dojo turned into the Sparring ground, which is losely held together by people who still abide by its rules.
[/quote]

Well not as enforcing as the former right Chewe?

[Pipstickz]

What do you suggest is done about Eon?

[Blood Prince]

[quote name='Pipstickz' timestamp='1321419542' post='95933']
What do you suggest is done about Eon?
[/quote]

Why do you ask me? Isn't it a thing we as a community should decide??

[Pipstickz]

You're part of the community, make a suggestion. The community can't make a decision if it doesn't have options. If you propose a solution and actually stick to it, and work for it, people will naturally fall behind you. That's the big secret behind the big movements of our past. How would Tarquinus have brought together people dedicated enough to actually earn a new alliance, something that's happened like three times in our almost seven years, or how would Chewett have brought the kings back to life, if they hadn't had their ideas in the first place? The community help is necessary, yes, but it all starts with a good idea, and if everybody waits around for everybody else to come up with that idea, the same people will continue to do so, the Eons of MD will continue to be rewarded for doing something anybody else could, but they just don't want to. So go for it, throw your ideas out there, because if you don't, then who will?

[color=#0000ff][quote name='Muratus del Mur' timestamp='1321427331' post='95939'] [/color]
[color=#0000ff]offtopic remarks about eon:
seems eon paranoia hunts this topic too. it makes me sick. eon plays by the rules and amuses himself on your fear. I have to say i enjoy to see that. This is ofc a very personal opinion and i can't take any official stand regarding it. I rarely look at players supporter status (its usualy when i am about to ip ban them). I NEVER get influenced by how much a player pays and those of you that dared to email me with lines like "i am a paying member", know very well my style of telling them to fuck off politely, or less politely. Eon is not under my protection more than his role as contest organizer allows. md server is not running because of eons money, how you so rudely put it, but because of the payments of all of you that pay anything. In md there are people that never paid a $ but got things others never managed to get after spending lots, and players that spent lots but don't become gossip subject because they don't cause 'mess' like eon. You have a problem with eon, face it, dont blame me on a potential 'protection' i might be ofering him.[/color]
[color=#0000ff][/quote][/color]
[color=#0000ff]Quote added because that's where it needs to be for the timeline to make sense.[/color]
[color=#0000ff]-Burns[/color]

Edited November 17, 2011 by Burns

[xrieg]

It should have been obvious by now that there are very few ppl active enough to do any real teamwork. You may measure it any way you like (I suggest check mp5 sectors, for most mp3s and mp4s everything is novelty):
1. number of ppl using tools (not picking them up but actually using),
2. number of ppl training,
3. number of quests and quests participants.
Testing tools by many.... How would they be tested if all locations available to younger players are depleted? Carrying a tool is hardly a testing.


The only thing you may FORCE is to force ppl off the game - or at least from their roles in-game. Fear? Hell, it's a game, not a horror movie - we can only talk entertainment or lack of it. MD is a game different from other games... In 'mass-production' games player feedback is listened to and included in next releases to provide them a better game and attract new ppl. Here the game claims it's player run and yet numerous complains are called fear etc. Eon is not a problem - he is only a symptom of one.

Personally last few weeks/months development made me reduce my activity greatly - from many hours a day and participation in all quests I could through training only to logging in for AD and some herbs and reading forum

[duxie]

[size=3][font=verdana,geneva,sans-serif]heh, bulls-eye, xrieg! MD is not a game where you can make some constant teamwork at the moment... as i've been telling earlier - population is too small for that, and "the FORCE" is reducing it further, thus leading it to nowhere... while i understand (i think) what Mur is so happy about Eon being in the game, and in normal situation i would be happy too (lets say, with 200 people daily population) - oh, c'mon, a Dark Knight! exciting! lets fight back! but now it works like finishing off the game, which is sad... in fact, i don't care if Eon takes fractions from my skills every 12 mins, which i get back in 3-4 fights, i even had a thought to make him hunt me, and save others from frustration, but as xrieg pointed out - Eon is only a symptom of the problem, and my playtime has become too low even to try this kind of solution.[/font][/size]

[size=3][font=verdana,geneva,sans-serif]*shrugs* i have nothing to suggest... get more people in, and try to save others from leaving... that's the main point i guess.[/font][/size]

[Burns]

10 people are easily enough to do all the team things that can be done. If there are, say, 30 real players in game, you can easily get 10 together with a little coordination. The newbies don't need any of the teaming things in the first few weeks, and the people who are unable to do teamwork either have to invest a lot of time or money, or they are lost.

I can assure you that the time i spend in MD is a lot more enjoyable with less people, because less uncooperative people means more things that go to good players. Maybe there'll soon come the time when we can undo restrictions again because the people they were made for left.

[duxie]

[size=3][font=verdana,geneva,sans-serif]sorry, Burns, with a huge respect to you - this is delusional... you're the second one to tell me this, and the first one was another elder... well, one thing is to make a group of ~20 people for some exciting celebration/contest without any chance to lose anything or even get prizes, once a month (year?); another thing is to make at least 10 semi-constant people group daily to push Eon away from training grounds, with a chance to earn his wrath, lose skills, simply waste your time trying to catch him, etc. out of 30 online people at least 10 are friends with Eon, at least 20 doesn't care or even can't attack him (not guilded mp3/mp4, others who are not attacked by him), at least 20 are idle, at least 10 are afraid of him, at least 30 are doing something more interesting and have no time to waste on this, at least 20 doesn't even know what's going on, etc., etc., etc., and that's out of 30... also, the group must fulfill some requirements to do the job - at the very least you need the needle and some powers/spells... whenever i'll have at least few days of free time, i promise - i'll try to do this. but now, let me guess for how long Eon would be afraid of such a group if we could make one? for a day? two? three? oh, well... i admit - i don't know how the needle works, but anyways he can hit anyone at any time without any effort (i'm not neglecting that he made a huge one to achieve this), and to prevent this - you'll need a lot of time/organization each time. as a result that would be fun for him and a pain for defenders. well... you can achieve this once or twice just for the matter of fun or to prove something, but on daily basis this would be just a needle in a heap of hay.[/font][/size]

[size=3][font=verdana,geneva,sans-serif]as i said - i don't care about his stat dmg, i can avoid it or deal with it. i would gladly make some fun from the fact that he exists, but i can't understand how some of you don't see that population as it is now is too small for such task and is getting even smaller just because the same fact that you don't see this, heh.[/font][/size]

[Burns]

If you could stop Eon in the blink of an eye, that'd be imbalanced, wouldn't it?
Attacking people is a vital part of the game, should it be that simple to turn that ability off? Just because you wish to?

Ask yourself, would you like it a lot if people could stop you from playing just like that? 2 people don't like you, and suddenly you're in solitary confinement jail for the next 3 hours. Is that fair?

And hooray for negative rep, i really want some:

Shrinking population generally doesn't seem like a bad thing to me. In fact, I don't think that the people who quit because they don#t always get what they want were a big asset to MD in the first place.

PS: If we get more into the Eon-corner again, as it seems right now, i'll split again. That's not an invitation to go wild, but i don't see the need to stop a discussion just because it doesn't fit with the topic title

Edited November 16, 2011 by Burns

[Chewett]

[quote name='duxie' timestamp='1321480948' post='95980']
[size=3][font=verdana,geneva,sans-serif]sorry, Burns, with a huge respect to you - this is delusional... you're the second one to tell me this, and the first one was another elder... well, one thing is to make a group of ~20 people for some exciting celebration/contest without any chance to lose anything or even get prizes, once a month (year?); another thing is to make at least 10 semi-constant people group daily to push Eon away from training grounds, with a chance to earn his wrath, lose skills, simply waste your time trying to catch him, etc. out of 30 online people at least 10 are friends with Eon, at least 20 doesn't care or even can't attack him (not guilded mp3/mp4, others who are not attacked by him), at least 20 are idle, at least 10 are afraid of him, at least 30 are doing something more interesting and have no time to waste on this, at least 20 doesn't even know what's going on, etc., etc., etc., and that's out of 30... also, the group must fulfill some requirements to do the job - at the very least you need the needle and some powers/spells... whenever i'll have at least few days of free time, i promise - i'll try to do this. but now, let me guess for how long Eon would be afraid of such a group if we could make one? for a day? two? three? oh, well... i admit - i don't know how the needle works, but anyways he can hit anyone at any time without any effort (i'm not neglecting that he made a huge one to achieve this), and to prevent this - you'll need a lot of time/organization each time. as a result that would be fun for him and a pain for defenders. well... you can achieve this once or twice just for the matter of fun or to prove something, but on daily basis this would be just a needle in a heap of hay.[/font][/size]

[size=3][font=verdana,geneva,sans-serif]as i said - i don't care about his stat dmg, i can avoid it or deal with it. i would gladly make some fun from the fact that he exists, but i can't understand how some of you don't see that population as it is now is too small for such task and is getting even smaller just because the same fact that you don't see this, heh.[/font][/size]
[/quote]

Who was the other person? Because they are most definately right about this, as is burns.

I will bet money i can get a training ground together working and working well within a week. PM me.

[duxie]

[size=3][font=verdana,geneva,sans-serif]Burns, you're dodging the point i'm not arguing if Eon should be stopped at all - i don't care. i'm arguing about what you and other elders are trying to state.[/font][/size]
[size=3][font=verdana,geneva,sans-serif]i'm not saying that it [u]should[/u] be easy to disable Eon, it's you saying that it [u]is[/u]. i've heard the same from Chewett (yes, you are that 2nd person, hehe), and that's exactly what i can't agree with.[/font][/size]
[size=3][font=verdana,geneva,sans-serif]i guess you both are in the group who doesn't care, or in other words - are not enough motivated, otherwise you would have done that long ago.[/font][/size]
[size=3][font=verdana,geneva,sans-serif]"I will bet money"... yeah, sure... offer a WP and there will be a queue of those who would love to participate, but for how long?..[/font][/size]

[size=3][font=verdana,geneva,sans-serif]as i said it before - you can make it once for fun or for bounty, but that would be it. it wouldn't last long (and i'm not saying it should), and would be pointless in global situation.[/font][/size]
[size=3][font=verdana,geneva,sans-serif]so i can't agree with you, Chewett, Mur who are trying to conceal this fact by telling/showing how easy it should be to gather an anti-Eon group. it's a one-time-thing at the best.[/font][/size]

[size=3][font=verdana,geneva,sans-serif]once again - i'm ok with Eon and how he is, i'd even try to fight him for fun; i don't like that you're trying to deny the fact that it's hard to get a working anti-Eon group...[/font][/size]

[size=3][font=verdana,geneva,sans-serif]ok, enough for me... off for chubb-chubb wintersleep [/font][/size]
[size=3][font=verdana,geneva,sans-serif]P.S. what was the topic again? though seems like every topic ends with anti-Eon stuff nowadays... [/font][/size]

[Tarquinus]

We're far away from the topic of shared tools.

As to the challenge of making something interesting and durable happen in MD, I accept. Better to try and fail than not to try at all.

[Muratus del Mur]

i am [u]seriously [/u]thinking to quadruple eons stat damage to the point that he will be able to null anyone stats within a week. In my opinion, eon did probably the best favor to the md community any fighter ever did. I am still waiting for a quester to balance his actions on the other side. In his way he makes you reach an absurd situation , a situation where you might finally realise that MD is not just about fighting and getting stats. If after eon 'period', all players that are blindly obsessed about their stats and run in panic from statdamage will go bye bye, it means that only those that put more focus on other aspects of MD will remain. I am refering to things that make you think, that create activities, that stimulate creativity. For example, trying to draw the level 2 grasan was anyhow affected by eon? Raising resource producting creatures will anyhow affected by eon? Eon hits in your fear and in some cases in your ego, [b]he is not ruining md, YOU are[/b] through your reactions.

What happens with eon is a phenomenon that happens very often in rl. Now stay still a second and look at the big picture. A large majority of md population is crying and pointing the finger at eon 'destroying the game'. Even if you are so many, you are incapable of doing two things. One thing is to realise that what eon 'affects' just a fraction of what you should care about in md, and the other, most important thing you fail to see is that you are so united when it comes to complaining together but you are not so united anymore when it comes to solve the issue yourself.

90% of the upcomming features will depend on team work, those that can't understand team work doen't mean "team complaining" but "team actions" are free to go, later it will be more frustrating trust me.


You are risking a couple of stats for this "lesson" I am risking my lifes work for it.




Oh and btw... its almost offending to talk about things you didnt care to find more about, but you talk as if you know. THE NEEDLE NEEDS A MINIMUM OF 3 PEOPLE TO OPERATE. If 3 people is too much teamwork requirement, then what is?

Fact is, you either learn something out of this, learn to DO something in this situation, not just "learn" a philosophical thing, or you better start quitting now.
I will soon provide a 'delete account' link for anyone asking for it, if things go this way, so you wont lose time waiting for my email replies.



[size=2]..You compared again md with other games, or what other game companies do in similar cases. Well, again i tell you md is not a game, myself am not 'a company', but a very crazy person with a very sane mind that plays with, and against, all of you through your characters. Any other game company aims to survive, to get more money, thats why any game company would not know the notions i respect and would simply aim to please. Conceptually speaking MD is far more pure and true than any other game out there, simply because I am incorruptible by money or by the fear of displeased players. I am offering all of you something from all my heart, i expect at least you shut up if you can;t see it, and not make comments of that sort.[/size]

[xrieg]

Make up your mind. Either you want MD to be a community with major tam work - or the realm for most dedicated ppl living the realm.
Everybody knows how needle works - and yet it was only employed about... once? Not by some seasoned MD player, who realize that stats in MD is only an icing that does not matter and who claims it would be an easy thing to organize. And the person in question stated several times that it does not really work.
Currently more and more MD is:
1. the realm creator and sole ruler - building the realm as he likes, rewarding and punishing ppl as he likes
2. minor game creators - quest and events organizing,
3. RP players who often do not care about game development much as long as chat remains unblocked
4. new ppl
..... the only minor flaw is no real group of ppl interacting with the realm - fighting, using tools, solving quests. and that makes activities of first two above undirected - little new features usage, timy quests and events _activities_ (anything beyond come and chat) participation. Some ppl will be entertained by the very act of quest/features development, event organization - some will not, would get discouraged with no people participating.
Creativity..... if the realm is built to stimulate it why vast majority of older players I talk to complains about it? I keep hearing that the realm is getting better and better, but average player quality keeps shrinking, less activity, worse and less quests etc? It could be interesting to prepare such a poll - maybe I am just dead wrong.

[Phantom Orchid]

xrieg,

I have been playing MD for almost 3 years now, and I have to say that I do not agree with one thing that you say in your post. That might be your experience, but it is not mine - and I do not appreciate you making blanket statements about MD like that because by doing that you are speaking for others who may or may not share that same experience.

And a million gold coins of free advice ... do [b]not[/b] push a demi-god into a corner by telling him to 'make up his mind.' He will bite. Hard.

Really, what it all comes down to is the question we must ask ourselves - what are *we* doing/can do to make things better? The realm spins because of its inhabitants. It only stops for those blinded for lack of imagination.

[Rendril]

Has anyone actually [b]tried[/b] using the needles?

[xrieg]

[quote name='Phantom Orchid' timestamp='1321515340' post='96009']
xrieg,

I have been playing MD for almost 3 years now, and I have to say that I do not agree with one thing that you say in your post. That might be your experience, but it is not mine - and I do not appreciate you making blanket statements about MD like that because by doing that you are speaking for others who may or may not share that same experience.
[/quote]

All I write is about my opinions and discussions I had. In no place I claim to represent players community.
[quote name='Phantom Orchid' timestamp='1321515340' post='96009']
And a million gold coins of free advice ... do [b]not[/b] push a demi-god into a corner by telling him to 'make up his mind.' He will bite. Hard.

[/quote]
The only reason I did write my post is that I invested some time into MD (300+ AD 100%; 200AD+ of a few hours daily activity) and am not satisfied that I enjoy it less and less. Bite.... well, I am hardly active anymore - I provide concerned player feedback. It may be read, may be ignored, may be punished - with only increasing probability or me permanently abandoning the realm.

[quote name='Rendril' timestamp='1321519159' post='96013']
Has anyone actually [b]tried[/b] using the needles?
[/quote]
Yes, Lone Wolf did once I believe in realistic conditions. Conclusions - current player community would not allow for its effective usage.

[Kyphis the Bard]

[quote name='Phantom Orchid' timestamp='1321515340' post='96009']
xrieg,

I have been playing MD for almost 3 years now, and I have to say that I do not agree with one thing that you say in your post. That might be your experience, but it is not mine - and I do not appreciate you making blanket statements about MD like that because by doing that you are speaking for others who may or may not share that same experience.

And a million gold coins of free advice ... do [b]not[/b] push a demi-god into a corner by telling him to 'make up his mind.' He will bite. Hard.

Really, what it all comes down to is the question we must ask ourselves - what are *we* doing/can do to make things better? The realm spins because of its inhabitants. It only stops for those blinded for lack of imagination.
[/quote]
I agree with you completely, Poe.

Xreig, your experiences may just be expressing your own, but as one of those Older players that you say the majority are complaining about the creativity in MD? I have to disagree I see HEAPS of creativity in MD. I do see some of your points, but that is only on very short basis'.

I'm been here for just over 3 years, and I have seen PLENTY of months with low effort quests, but way more months I see interesting quests. The more work Mur is doing, the more new features he makes in a short period, the lower the average quest effort seems to become.

Poe, you hit on one of my all time favourite things about MD. You push Mur into a corner, and you give him what you see as the extreme cases as his "only" options? He is going to pick an option that is still on the same spectrum, but it will be so incredibly extreme that you won't see it as the same spectrum...

My biggest annoyance in MD is that when you put Mur in that situation in a position where he can reward you, and he does, it doesn't take long for people to forget the awesome thing he just did for you and go back to complaining.

Anywho... I'm rambling and not in the right frame of mind for this right now, too much going on in the background right now... I've said my piece for now...

[i][sup][sub]Ooogedy boogedy wacka wacka wacka >.>[/sub][/sup][/i]

[phantasm]

"What happens with eon is a phenomenon that happens very often in rl"

Aye I have seen it several times myself.

[b]Idi Amin Dada[/b]
[size=4]Dictator Obiang[/size]
Gaddafi
[b]Saddam Hussein Abd al-Majid al-Tikriti[/b]

I've seen this way of 'enforcing' ones own paradise many a time in my long years of life.

[Blood Prince]

[quote name='phantasm' timestamp='1321529061' post='96021']
"What happens with eon is a phenomenon that happens very often in rl"

Aye I have seen it several times myself.

[b]Idi Amin Dada[/b]
[size=4]Dictator Obiang[/size]
Gaddafi
[b]Saddam Hussein Abd al-Majid al-Tikriti[/b]

I've seen this way of 'enforcing' ones own paradise many a time in my long years of life.
[/quote]

Off topic I guess

In the latter two cases there was US and a puppet called UN to topple them. Now tell me who is the UN and the US of MD ??

[Pipstickz]

[quote name='Rendril' timestamp='1321519159' post='96013']
Has anyone actually [b]tried[/b] using the needles?
[/quote]
A needle was used on Keida, you can ask her how it was

Also @phantasm and bloodprince: Eon isn't a dictator who needs to be toppled, he's a fellow player and *gasp* a human being. I'm sure Eon would've gotten bored of hunting people long ago if there wasn't so much worrying about it.

Edited November 18, 2011 by Pipstickz

[Blood Prince]

[quote name='Pipstickz' timestamp='1321587328' post='96094']
A needle was used on Keida, you can ask her how it was

Also @phantasm and bloodprince: Eon isn't a dictator who needs to be toppled, he's a fellow player and *gasp* a human being. I'm sure Eon would've gotten bored of hunting people long ago if there wasn't so much worrying about it.
[/quote]


Pip I suggest you look at my response again. I did not say Eon is a dictator I gave an answer to what Phan has written citing dictators. I only said the way the latter two was dealt with. I think you have misinterpreted my answer.

[ChildOfTheSoul]

Today, I saw a beautiful thing. A few people got together and trained. Then, when Eon showed up, we threw something like seven spells on him and used the needle a couple of times. It was satisfying and fun.

If anyone wants to complain about nothing being done the direction of training or teamwork, come to Marble Dale Park and just sit there for a while. Then if you feel like something unfair is happening; do something, or don't. Just don't complain about it.

[Muratus del Mur]

"i told you so"