Effectiveness of the Needle

[Eon]

I have no idea how many people used the weaken cause against me and got included into the needle, but these are my current stats after 6 uses from Amorans' needle.

I was asked to put this on the forum.

Server time: Nov 18 00:19:12
~ Day: 321 Year: 6 ~
[i]
38 days remaining[/i]
[i]
[/i]
[i]
Only 1 person managed to beat my creatures (although luck and a decent amount of spells played a role in that), but at least you got my skilldamage stat down a bit.
[/i]
[img]http://magicduel.com/img/interface/stats/mini-char_regeneration.gif[/img] Regeneration: [b]2202[/b] [left]([color="#000000"]5194.23[/color] + [color="#ff9900"]-2992[/color])[/left]
[img]http://magicduel.com/img/interface/stats/mini-char_energeticimmun.gif[/img] Energetic immunity: [b]3117[/b] [left]([color="#000000"]7236.98[/color] + [color="#3355ff"]50[/color] + [color="#ff9900"]-4169[/color])[/left]
[img]http://magicduel.com/img/interface/stats/mini-char_tradesense.gif[/img] Trade sense: [b]1886[/b] [left]([color="#000000"]4449.23[/color] + [color="#ff9900"]-2563[/color])[/left]
[img]http://magicduel.com/img/interface/stats/mini-char_briskness.gif[/img] Briskness: [b]2275[/b] [left]([color="#000000"]5093.11[/color] + [color="#99cc00"]16[/color] + [color="#ff9900"]-2834[/color])[/left]
[img]http://magicduel.com/img/interface/stats/mini-char_initiative.gif[/img] Initiative: [b]1502[/b] [left]([color="#000000"]3544.82[/color] + [color="#ff9900"]-2042[/color])[/left]
[img]http://magicduel.com/img/interface/stats/mini-char_defence.gif[/img] Defence: [b]17970[/b] [left]([color="#000000"]42288.57[/color] + [color="#99cc00"]40[/color] + [color="#ff9900"]-24358[/color])[/left]
[img]http://magicduel.com/img/interface/stats/mini-char_attack.gif[/img] Attack: [b]163684[/b] [left]([color="#000000"]385716.26[/color] + [color="#3355ff"]100[/color] + [color="#99cc00"]40[/color] + [color="#ff9900"]-222172[/color])[/left]
[img]http://magicduel.com/img/interface/stats/mini-char_power.gif[/img] Power: [b]588[/b] [left]([color="#000000"]1269.9[/color] + [color="#3355ff"]50[/color] + [color="#ff9900"]-731[/color])[/left]
[img]http://magicduel.com/img/interface/stats/mini-char_luck.gif[/img] Luck: [b]515[/b] [left]([color="#000000"]1167.39[/color] + [color="#3355ff"]20[/color] + [color="#ff9900"]-672[/color])[/left]
[img]http://magicduel.com/img/interface/stats/mini-char_skilldamage.gif[/img] *skilldamage: [b]31[/b] [left]([color="#000000"]74[/color] + [color="#ff9900"]-43[/color])[/left]
[img]http://magicduel.com/img/interface/stats/mini-char_experimentalism.gif[/img] Experimentalism: [b]10[/b] [left]([color="#000000"]24.16[/color] + [color="#ff9900"]-14[/color])[/left]
[img]http://magicduel.com/img/interface/stats/mini-char_herbalism.gif[/img] *herbalism: [b]11[/b] [left]([color="#000000"]26.7[/color] + [color="#ff9900"]-15[/color])[/left]
[img]http://magicduel.com/img/interface/stats/mini-char_waterhandling.gif[/img] Waterhandling: [b]13[/b] [left]([color="#000000"]30.31[/color] + [color="#ff9900"]-17[/color])[/left]
[img]http://magicduel.com/img/interface/stats/mini-char_filtering.gif[/img] *filtering: [b]0[/b] [left]([color="#000000"]0.4[/color])[/left]

[Seigheart]

So, does the needle work whether the person using the Weaken command wins or not?

[Muratus del Mur]

i keep telling that over and over again.
Legislator items are meant to focus mob power so they should work , somehow, regardless if an individual wins or not. THey have different behaviour if most lose, than when most win, but they still do have an effect. Initial idea was that "lost fights" will weaken and won fights will hurt (penalize) but the eon mass paranoia made me alter that a bit for these testings

Anyway, with the help of some of you that finaly DID something, and with Eon (yeah believe it or not he actively helps to make the needles more painful for him), i will adjust these legislator items to be more effective and balanced.

However, they can't be TOO painful, not if not enough people join forces.

[Tarquinus]

My thanks to all who participated. I am sorry RL forced me to duck out so soon, but I was able to experience part of the fun. Warriors and mages of the Eclipse: strength and honour. Eon: we salute you!

[Kyphis the Bard]

I'm curiouse... is it possible to fight for the cause of NEGATING the needles? Obviously, you wouldn't want fights from the needles target to be counted, only fights from another mob against people fighting for the cause of empowering the needle...

[Amoran Kalamanira Kol]

Of what I managed to snag from the 6 turns of the needle this is the message the triggerbox gave to me with each turn:

[b]3rd turn of the needle:[/b]
[b]There are more lost cause fights (3) than won (2). Weakening all stats by 8% x 5(causes) x 1.2(modifier). (Maximum 25 active causes can be considered with this item).[/b]

-This shows that there are 5 people who have battled against Eon, but 3 of those 5 have lost. This seemed to cause the effect of the needle to lessen. Meaning: That the main way to increase the needle's effectiveness is to actually win against eon in a fight. However, it still did produce a great strain on Eon's stats, as is clearly shown.

[b]5th turn of the needle:[/b]
[b]There are more won cause fights (2) than lost (1) (or equal number). Weakening all stats by 16% x 3(causes) x 1.2(modifier). (Maximum 25 active causes can be considered with this item).[/b]

- This shows that there were three people participating against Eon, two of those people won the fight, and one of them lost. The fact that two people won the fight increased the needle's productivity to 16% rather than 8% as previously shown in the 3rd turn.

[b]6th turn of the needle:[/b]
[b]There are more lost cause fights (3) than won (0). Weakening all stats by 8% x 3(causes) x 1.2(modifier). (Maximum 25 active causes can be considered with this item).[/b]

- This shows that there are 3 causes, and none of them won, which flat lined the needle to give 8% negative stat loss to Eon.



The effectiveness of the needle rose as more people began to participate in the fight cause.
It also rose as more people began to win against eon.

[i]--------[/i]

[b]Azull's findings regarding the needle as one who was battling against Eon:[/b]
[i]"I found that using non dam 0% slider with mirror works well in that regard. All my attacks with a toxicondrite that way were wins.[/i]
[i]Using the dead army without mirror also let me win. However, it was not visible in the trigger box. So I think it's safe to say using the dead army does not work."[/i]

[b]This from Eon:[/b]
[i]"I was watching the fight logs constantly.[/i]

[i]I never lost to the "dead army", I beat it. Unless a highlighted fight log now means that I lost the fight.[/i]

[i]Tarq was the only player I noticed (which I was closely watching) to beat my actual creatures with his own. I don't count tree fights."[/i]

[i]--------[/i]

The needle tends to work very well when paired with creatures and spells that put a temporary reduction on one's stats. (Like the Toxic creature from loreroot and the weaken/noarmor spell)

The most effective way to use the needle, however, is if many people join in with the weakening cause and win against Eon. Over time as you use the needle, and the more he is weakened, the more likely you are to win. It doesn't appear to be something you just use once and then stop using because you feel you have damaged the opponent.

The needle also appeared to be overwrite certain effects the more it was used, and it's effectiveness seemed to lessen a bit. But I am uncertain if this occurred as the participation dwindled, or if it was due to a problem with the needle's functioning itself.

Mur has said he will be making some changes to the needle to help with it's effectiveness.

Thank you to all who have participated in the test, and the biggest thanks go to Eon - who participated as a foe the Eclipse was set out to battle.
[size=2][Edit: edited to clarify a few things and add details.][/size]

Edited November 18, 2011 by Amoran Kalamanira Kol

[Azull]

[quote][b]This from Eon:[/b]
[i]"I was watching the fight logs constantly.[/i]

[i]I never lost to the "dead army", I beat it. Unless a highlighted fight log now means that I lost the fight.[/i][/quote]

I don't get a fight log when using the dead army so I can't verify. I thought I won, wishful thinking on my part I guess.

Edited November 18, 2011 by Azull

[Phantom Orchid]

I thought I saw in red letters at beginning of 'fight for weaken' battle words that mentioned something about heat use. Has anyone noticed if heat plays a role in this?

[ChildOfTheSoul]

I can confirm that when I fought for the cause of weakening, it drained all current released heat I had when I entered the battle. I'm not sure how it affects the cause fight, though.

[Brulant]

Well, the page does say
[quote]
(Causes are group actions, leave empty if you didn't planned this first with more fighers or if you are uncertain what this is about. [i][b]Fighting for a cause consumes all active heat[/b][/i])[/quote]
Besides that, I don't think heat strengthens or weakens your cause.

[Muratus del Mur]

it just zeroes heat, its not influenced by heat. The reason is that there is some sort of cost to use cause fights. An other reason is that lowering heat prevents you, theoretically, to use spells till you recover that heat. An other reason is that symbolically "will consumes energy"


I have some changes pending to the needle, i will announce them when done. They were based on the results of this test.

@kyph.. for now people have a problem using the needle , so countering it is not needed for now. However, anything is possible if later on it will be needed.

[Kyphis the Bard]

[quote name='Muratus del Mur' timestamp='1321629758' post='96114']
@kyph.. for now people have a problem using the needle , so countering it is not needed for now. However, anything is possible if later on it will be needed.
[/quote]
Good

[Blood Prince]

Its awesome to see people get together and do something about Eon but on the other side there is this issue 3 - 4 battles have happened for each cause and the needle was used 6 times to get Eon to that stat level. Anybody fancy him at that stat level? I don't think so. We might have to have a bigger group and a 3 -4 needle sessions and then see the real effects. This is a very good way forward though.

[Shemhazaj]

[color=#808080][i]hm... we used the needle today in the Park. I used the needle 7 times, the other needle was used at least 2 times.[/i][/color]
[color=#808080][i]from the 7 times used by me 4 were more wins than loses, 3 were more loses.[/i][/color]
[color=#808080][i]number of people counted in each use varied between 3 and 6.[/i][/color]

[color=#808080][i]5 logs (I lost the first 2 in the heat of the battle [/i][/color]
[spoiler][center][b]~ Fierce Needle of Feebleness ~[/b][/center]
[center][b]Selected item was used/activated successfully![/b][/center]
[center][center]There are more won cause fights (3) than lost (1) (or equal number). Weakening all stats by 16% x 4(causes) x 1.2(modifier). (Maximum 25 active causes can be considered with this item).[/center][/center]


[center][b]~ Fierce Needle of Feebleness ~[/b][/center]
[center][b]Selected item was used/activated successfully![/b][/center]
[center][center]There are more won cause fights (2) than lost (2) (or equal number). Weakening all stats by 16% x 4(causes) x 1.2(modifier). (Maximum 25 active causes can be considered with this item).[/center][/center]


[center][b]~ Fierce Needle of Feebleness ~[/b][/center]
[center][b]Selected item was used/activated successfully![/b][/center]
[center][center]There are more won cause fights (3) than lost (3) (or equal number). Weakening all stats by 16% x 6(causes) x 1.2(modifier). (Maximum 25 active causes can be considered with this item).[/center][/center]


[center][b]~ Fierce Needle of Feebleness ~[/b][/center]
[center][b]Selected item was used/activated successfully![/b][/center]
[center][center]There are more won cause fights (2) than lost (1) (or equal number). Weakening all stats by 16% x 3(causes) x 1.2(modifier). (Maximum 25 active causes can be considered with this item).[/center][/center]


[center][b]~ Fierce Needle of Feebleness ~[/b][/center]
[center][b]Selected item was used/activated successfully![/b][/center]
[center][center]There are more lost cause fights (3) than won (2). Weakening all stats by 8% x 5(causes) x 1.2(modifier). (Maximum 25 active causes can be considered with this item).[/center][/center]

[/spoiler]

[color=#808080][i]and still Eon's drach was making over 400k damage to all targets...[/i][/color]
[color=#808080][i]Thought that much effort would make the victim at least in the range of other people attack strength...[/i][/color]

[Maebius]

I used the needle twice, with similar results, but did not notice the stats displayed in the Trigger box until it was just about to clear itself, (so no copy/pastes). However, the second time was similar to this one:
There are more won cause fights (2) than lost (1) (or equal number). Weakening all stats by 16% x 3(causes) x 1.2(modifier). (Maximum 25 active causes can be considered with this item).

Interesting to see the community rally around the cause.
I wish Eon luck in recovering from the 'statdamage'.

[Burns]

Since the needle overwrites the old effect with a new one, i think we can assume that only the most recent use affects the stats at all. Using the needle 6 times with 3 causes will result in a lot less damage than once with 18 causes, as i see it.

Otherwise you could just make a team of 3 people and re-use the needle every cooldown interval and get to way negative stats that way. Which would be too easy for my taste.

[Shadowseeker]

Still, it seems relatively easy. 6 causes with more won than lost fights would then result in 100% skills taken away, 12 if more losses....that sounds like not too much, considering we're talking 100% of the stats now.

[Maebius]

[quote name='Burns' timestamp='1322078974' post='96483']
Since the needle overwrites the old effect with a new one, i think we can assume that only the most recent use affects the stats at all. Using the needle 6 times with 3 causes will result in a lot less damage than once with 18 causes, as i see it.

Otherwise you could just make a team of 3 people and re-use the needle every cooldown interval and get to way negative stats that way. Which would be too easy for my taste.
[/quote]

I'm not sure about the negative stats, but am not entirely sure of how the Needle operates yet. Perhaps EON could confirm his stats after this latest usage?

The way I was thinking it worked, was to reduce the given percentage of the target's stats. So if his attack was 1000 to begin with, and he lost 16%, he would be at 840 Attack (16% of 1000 = 160)
Next round it's either reduced by a percentage further, or overwritten to be reduced only by the "new" amount.... The maths confuse me with what cause/modifier is multiplied first, but I think it may be a matter of "diminishing returns", so no negatives would happen?

[Muratus del Mur]

the needle was just ..a needle in a haystack of legislator items i intend to do. In fact, i plan to make collaborative fighting a common reality in md, not just an event that takes place on rare occasions of eonization. So, do you think a legislator armorer or how to call it, role, is needed? Someone fully familiarized and up to date with all legislator settings abd abilities, that will have to document itself throught testing (and tips from me but never full full info). Its just a thought.

[Azull]

[quote name='Muratus del Mur' timestamp='1322998450' post='97190']
So, do you think a legislator armorer or how to call it, role, is needed?[/quote] Perhaps I'm getting ahead of things here, but I have been thinking about the concept of "collaborative fighting" for some time now. I believe each land should have at least one "expert" in the use of legislator items. So I propose not one but four, one from each main land.

[Kyphis the Bard]

[quote name='Muratus del Mur' timestamp='1322998450' post='97190']
So, do you think a legislator armorer or how to call it, role, is needed? Someone fully familiarized and up to date with all legislator settings abd abilities, that will have to document itself throught testing (and tips from me but never full full info). Its just a thought.
[/quote]
I think yes, but in this case you should just give the guidelines of minimum requirements and have people actually apply for the position. Interviews