Suggestions to counter depletion (and a bit of off topic)

[lone wolf pup]

For this month I've decided to participate in No one's event to deplete resources. Although I've seen that many people are against depletion, there is little they can do about it.

Well a few ideas that I see could be implemented to counter depletion would be:

A spell, (possibly buyable from wish shop or for MP6) that would temporary ban target from harvesting any resources for a set amount of time. The ban shouldn't be too long, say 8 mins similar to other spells or even 30 mins. This would be much more (directly) useful than what is currently available... teleporting people elsewhere, moving them away a scene, move lock.

If it was a spell that could be purchased out of WP store, people who are actively complaining could join together and try to make the person depleting resources consume more time to achieve his goal. It may not fully prevent it, but it'd give the community a way to fight back.

As for it being a spell for MP6, I've always thought MP6s were protecters, why not allow them to be protector of their land as well as people. (Or another anti-protecter with the ability to 'cause people to harvest twice as much would be neat )

Another idea I've had (stolen) was of tools that could be used to replenish resources. (Credit goes to Laphers)
There are a ton of unused resources laying around, people are hoarding resources as much as people are depleting resources. Gathering resources does consume a lot of time and sometimes you reach a point where you try your best to deplete, but the clock just ticks and resources come back and you have to work all over again, and as it is, it only take one person to go around depleting resources. If there were tools that could be used (shared hopefully, and equally (maybe more or less) as plentiful as tools already out) to consume your own resources to replenish the resource of where you're at. Just as normal tools these should be given a cooldown (possibly longer or shorter? I'm not quite sure yet both sides can be debated over.) Anywho.

Thoughts about it: A community could easily force the environment to replenish at an optimum rate. Since there would be more people willing to help out I feel the cooldown for the item to be re-used should be slightly longer and tools fewer just to make it a bit more difficult and balance it out instead of just one person spamming his resource to restore the land which would be just as bad as the lone harvester.

I've probably had more to add to this but forgotten about it. Hopefully others can fill in or point out where I'm missing.

Another idea, that again is probably stolen and completely unrelated to depletion is:
Well, we currently have skill levels for collecting resources but as far as I know, it's just a collection of how much we've collected and have no real use. I would like it if the higher your skill level, the more you would harvest. In one way, it'd make it easier for depleters to deplete, it would also make it so that people who are always constantly harvesting the same material, would have to share the tools with someone else for resources not to be constantly being depleted. Although it doesn't have to be the same rate and probably would require too much coding to ever happen, I just thought I'd throw the idea out there.

These ideas probably won't be implemented, but I just thought I'd throw my thoughts out if they haven't been put up before.

If there's already another topic similar or exactly the same as this, I'm sorry for opening another duplicate thread, consider it as refreshing an idea and feel free to close it. Again sorry, I did not feel like going through the search history to try and find a similar idea. I'm looking at you Chewett.

Ciao.

[No one]

Some of the ideas are interesting but most are overpowered. I will give you my understanding and another possible solution for all your problems.

[u]First of all[/u]:[u] all shared items are supposed to be shared[/u] and that means : accessible to all and this is failing miserably (this is one of the reasons I started my event : as a protest against limiting access to tools).

[u]Second[/u]: [u]creating tools to limit ones freedom[/u] ... and making it share ... are you not afraid they will be used for other purposes ?
Have I seen a request of movelocking attached to such item ?
Have I seen teleporting? ban / ban from harvesting ?
Those items are meant to be free & shared.

Why don't you, in turn, propose to turn each and every "[b]Independent[/b] " tool to a shared one and all placed lets say at GoE ? Each of these with 10 uses? Isn't that easier ?


[u]Third[/u]: [u]why are some RP allowed and some are not ?[/u] yea, I am talking about MY event, why do you want it stopped ?
Did I do anything to prevent your events ? Did I do anything your WP exchanging quests ? Wait until its over and then make a comment.

4th: There are 2 solutions to deplete:
a) ask the depleter for to stop (yea, you tried to talk to Eon and failed). Note: nobody contacted me in game to stop depleting during this event. NOBODY aka not a single person/character/council member. The only person that I've spoken to about this (in game) was [b]Numerius Felix[/b].
b) as you want a tool : make a tool / shared item with spell to prevent (for a given period of maximum 1 day that is until next resource regen) the depletion below a given margin
NOTE: you should consider that margin to be 50% as there are so many places with just 2, 3 or 4 stones. You wouldn't want me them prevented / punished from gathering them.


PS: Just so you know I am also against depleting without a purpose.

Best regards,
No one

[Ackshan Bemunah]

Nobody else?

Seriously?

In line with what No One has said, one suggestion would be that there be a name link involved in the "collects x resource" greentext. (So you can click it and ask someone to stop.)

[Chewett]

[quote name='Ackshan Bemunah' timestamp='1361219609' post='132933']
In line with what No One has said, one suggestion would be that there be a name link involved in the "collects x resource" greentext. (So you can click it and ask someone to stop.)
[/quote]


[2013-02-19 01:09:12 - Stage 11]
When gathering resources or using ** RP text a players name should be clickable

[Mallos]

Funny thought I had: All herbs be 1 max in a scene, and have them regen 1 a day.

Edited February 19, 2013 by Mallos

[Myth]

I'm gonna bump this with the following suggestion:

 

5 level WP Shop spell

 

Resource Protection

"When cast on a resource in a scene, anyone who brings that resource below 1/5th of its maximum value, or gathers when the resource is already below 1/5th of its maximum value, is sent and movelocked in [insert resourceless scene here] for a period of time dependent on the spell level."

 

Level 1: 00+4 casts; 030 min movelock; 02 hour protection

Level 2: 04+4 casts; 060 min movelock; 04 hour protection; can now be cast on 2 resources in the same scene

Level 3: 08+4 casts; 120 min movelock; 06 hour protection; can now be cast on 3 resources in the same scene; 1/5th becomes 1/4th

Level 4: 12+4 casts; 180 min movelock; 08 hour protection; can now be cast on 4 resources in the same scene; 1/4th becomes 1/3rd

Level 5: 16+4 casts; 240 min movelock; 10 hour protection; can now be cast on all resources in the same scene; 1/3rd becomes 2/3rds

 

It's a rather expensive protective measure, and in my opinion a suitable spell for a "druidic" role, if for some reason it wouldn't become a WP Shop option.

Edited August 7, 2015 by Myth

[Rophs]

Ideally depletion counter would be a rework to land cleansers which are commonly regarded as useless.

[Aethon]

From what I have seen, the best counter depletion methods are actually very simple:

 

• Don't antagonize someone that collects resources: I've seen quite a few posts about depletion, openly trying to humiliate, threaten or guilt trip players. This is going to do nothing but annoy or anger them and just give them a (bigger) reason to deplete

And then from there;

• Be polite: As No One pointed out, simply asking a player, politely, to stop for a while, or leave some, works quite well.

In fact, I'd dare say that there was an even easier solution -- show respect, have manners.

 

Disclaimer: None of the above comments or suggestions were aimed at anyone specific but 'if the hat fits'...

[Myth]

No One proposed 2 things.

 

4th: There are 2 solutions to deplete:
a) ask the depleter for to stop (yea, you tried to talk to Eon and failed). Note: nobody contacted me in game to stop depleting during this event. NOBODY aka not a single person/character/council member. The only person that I've spoken to about this (in game) was Numerius Felix.
b) as you want a tool : make a tool / shared item with spell to prevent (for a given period of maximum 1 day that is until next resource regen) the depletion below a given margin
NOTE: you should consider that margin to be 50% as there are so many places with just 2, 3 or 4 stones. You wouldn't want me them prevented / punished from gathering them.

 

I elaborated his second proposal.

[Myth]

Attempt no. 2 :D

 

You know how each land has these so called cleansers which help dispose of the unwanted?

 

I'm thinking of an item with a set of rules applied to it. Basically, these items would only work if the rules scripted to them were broken.

 

Example:

- location has 15/15 Herbs

- land X rules state no collecting after 2/3 has been reached

- location gets brought down to 9/15 Herbs by player A

- land item stores player A inside some database, basically activating for that player only, as well as for that day only

- action is NOT automatic; items is activated, but would need to be used

- player B (citizen of land X, guardian, if you wish) hunts down player A

- player B finds player A and activates land item

- player A suffers from one of the following effects (take your pick):

--- inability to collect resource in question from land X for that day (magical effect = some barrier of sorts)

--- jailed for 1 day, a few hours... whatever sounds fair (realistic effect = you get caught, you're brought to justice)

- day ends = item database clears; player continues to carry out the sentence

 

Have a few of these items for each land and you'd be promoting police work = some activity. :D

 

Examples of general item rules:

- items would be given by ruler to appointed citizens;

- items would act the same as shared items, to ensure they don't get lost to inactive players;

- some minimum loyalty filter would be required;

- can only be used within the land they're protecting - not particularly viable, because of chat list lag; I'd make them useable everywhere; even this has its flaws, since rule breakers can hide in locations inaccessible to those protecting their own lands; at the very least, rule breaker would be discouraged to keep at it, since there aren't many of these locations close by, and the trip would involve the risk of getting caught

 

Land rules would need to be set by ruler of the land, and they'd have to be acceptable. And of course, made public.

 

Example:

- general rule: no depletion allowed

---- exception: max resource = 1

- general rule: no gathering when below 2/3 of max

(if a location has 14 max, 9.32 would act as that threshold; gathering when at 10 wouldn't qualify as rule breaking)

- specific rule: players from lands we're at war with aren't allowed to gather

- specific rule: player C isn't allowed to gather because [insert reasoning with strong arguments]

(reasons subjected to being accepted or denied by some kind of neutral court)

 

 

Any thoughts? I haven't been able to come up with a name for such an item :P

Edited October 4, 2015 by Myth

[No one]

Attempt no. 2 :D

...

Any thoughts? I haven't been able to come up with a name for such an item :P

Yes, I have a thought ; grab a tool and start using it. Otherwise you don't count.

 

If you're talking about water ... get 2 buckets.

Let me know what you think / update this topic after 2 months of harvesting.

[Myth]

I am using them. Sometime I manage to get the bucket and am thrilled when I actually get to use it. Other times it's for naught.

 

It's an attempts against depletion, not for it.

[Aethon]

I think the amount of complaints and whining (not aimed at you Asth) about depletion is just rather sad. I see it as another one of these "people are getting too good at doing something so let's make it harder for them" (another example being the recent topic on stats and limiting them).

 

Resources are available to everyone and anyone and they regenerate regularly. So why do people feel some sort of injustice when they're depleted?

 

As a resource gather myself I say the following:

• Yes it can be annoying and frustrating when you go to harvest a resource and it's gone.
• No, I don't think to myself "that's so unfair". I think "Well I'll just have to get there first next time!" 

Complaining about the depletion is like trying to complain about the fact I rarely get a water bucket or candy box because people are quicker at grabbing them. 

 

There is nothing unfair, it's just you (players in general) lack the speed to grab the items or, unfortunately, are in a tricky time zone for MD. The same applies for the resources, except these actually regenerate! So you're even more likely to be able to grab a resource than the tool!

 

If people wish to enforce community laws, rules and punishments, then that's fine, but it should be done through their own standing and power in MD. However, I do not think that special items or spells should be created purely for the desire to punish those that deplete.

 

Whilst some players spend time grinding their stats for fighting, others grind in different areas for their own enjoyment.

 

This attitude of "they've become too powerful" or "they hoard all the resources!" really needs to stop. It takes time, effort and commitment to do these things effectively and get to a certain standard; don't complain if you can't do it but we can...

 

What shall we do next? Complain that Dst has WP's overflowing on her account and, because I have none, say "Remove them all! It's unfair!"? Or demand that players with over 100 silver give the the excess to the TK's?

 

Seriously...please stop...

 

<End Rant>

[Myth]

This has nothing to do with speed.

 

If you just happen to be in an appropriate timezone, you'll manage to get up and deplete whatever your heart desires, as long as you have the tools to do so, which, if I may add, are plenty; including independent ones.

 

You can be the king of grinders and still be beat to the point by someone who just happens to wake up just when resource regen ticks.

 

I get it. People get strong. If they wish to deplete, they do so. If they're asked nicely, they might stop, but then again, they might not if they don't like you enough. So a counter measure is in order in these conditions, by my reasoning.

 

The point where they become strong enough to deplete the realm in a few moves is the point where it gets unbalanced.

 

"Hey look! 20 water! I'll just use these 3 buckets I have along with my huge stats to collect it all in 3 clicks! I'll do it in the morning, because I wake up exactly when resources just happen to replenish!"

 

That might have taken years of grinding to achieve, but it shouldn't be possible. And if it's allowed to be possible, it NEEDS a counter measure.

 

Bottom line to my "rant" (:p): time zone should NOT be a factor to someone's strength.

Edited October 4, 2015 by Myth

[No one]

Incredible but I agree with you Myth.

 

[spoiler]

This has nothing to do with speed.

 

If you just happen to be in an appropriate timezone, you'll manage to get up and deplete whatever your heart desires, as long as you have the tools to do so, which, if I may add, are plenty; including independent ones.

 

You can be the king of grinders and still be beat to the point by someone who just happens to wake up just when resource regen ticks.

 

I get it. People get strong. If they wish to deplete, they do so. If they're asked nicely, they might stop, but then again, they might not if they don't like you enough. So a counter measure is in order in these conditions, by my reasoning.

 

The point where they become strong enough to deplete the realm in a few moves is the point where it gets unbalanced.

 

"Hey look! 20 water! I'll just use these 3 buckets I have along with my huge stats to collect it all in 3 clicks! I'll do it in the morning, because I wake up exactly when resources just happen to replenish!"

 

That might have taken years of grinding to achieve, but it shouldn't be possible. And if it's allowed to be possible, it NEEDS a counter measure.

 

Bottom line to my "rant" ( :P): time zone should NOT be a factor to someone's strength.

[/spoiler]

 

I hate being on the wrong timezone.

FYI : I usually get on MD later then 8PM ST (excluding weekend when I might get in earlier or might not login at all).

So, yea, I am (was) pissed when others (removed the name) got all the water early in the morning (but I got over it long time ago). Or that I can never get in time to get tools just after reset (because it is either 4AM for me and I sleep or that I am at work).

I am also pissed when I can't get a candy box and they are in the East. Would you be surprised that GG ppl gets the boxes most of the time (from what I noticed) ?

Anyway, I do my best with what I have.

 

As for 3 buckets ... sorry, I rarely use 2 water buckets.

 

As for replenish time ... it is at about 7AM ST. Again, the wrong time for me as I am starting commuting for work.

 

So, please don't complain about me depleting when I barely get the leftovers.

 

---------------------------------

If you want to do smth about resources ... please do it in game. I hate ppl yelling at me on forum when they never talk to me in MD.

[Myth]

Whoaaa, hold on a bit. This was in no way directed only at you. :P

 

I've seen the hours you're on to deplete, so I pretty much know that you're on it 5-9 hours before regen ticks.

 

This is a generic observation made after I've hauled almost all of the Memory Stones this past week, through the method described above. Were I a Golemian, I could pretty much monopolize the stones. Same with MB and water. Because I have this advantage of being able to get there before (almost) everyone else. (coupled with the advantage of lots of spare time at work) (edited in: this may apply to a few people, but the point remains that the majority will be at a loss)

 

3 buckets: again, not directed at you. Anyone can own 3 buckets. Just get someone to send them all over to you (generic "you" :P) and you own the place. (again, if time zone)

 

(edited in: however we already agree that time zone is an issue, so I'll stop on that)

 

Shared tools I don't know how to "fix", when it comes to time zones. I guess they sort of have a patch by being returned at different hours according to the day it happens. I'm just trying to think up a patch for resources here.

 

I'm guessing the monopoly issue was addressed by implementing independent tools. Well, it's not exactly working. With Nad being dead, it's visible that water manages to reach higher levels than before. Couple that with days when you're too tired to go for it, and you get a lovely morning for collecting water. :P But other than that, you two own the business. One takes care of it at night, the other in the morning.

 

So, hear me out a bit. Everything has an opposite, right? A counter? Combat was built that way, or at least that was the intention; the land was thought in this manner, if I understood it correctly. (mirrors and stuff) Well, resources don't have this counter. Do what in game, specifically? At this point, depletion can at best be delayed, as was pointed out to me by somebody.

 

Depleters have hauled a lot; they gained power. What am I (generic I) going to do to these players? Let's discuss options here.

1. Ask them nicely and hope for the best.

--- works; all's well in the land

--- doesn't work; move on to option 2

2. Keep them continuously move locked or locked in chaos (if I could afford it) and eventually get paid back tenfold or perhaps even killed over it?

--- Of course I won't be doing that; I value being alive and able to do things; what's gonna protect me from my actions, all because I wanted to gain some stats, or resources for whatever purpose? Surely not protectors, as they're not exactly equipped for the task. Sooo... option 3?

3. Win some quests or donate to gain some coin and buy what I need.

--- Well I (again, generic I) need stats. I like grinding stats, but there's nothing to grind unless I wake up at the right time. I can't do that because I live in Australia, I have a schedule, a job, a family to sustain - and the server time's in RO. But I enjoy MD, and would like a chance at it. Ah well... guess I'll try to find another game like this one. (might've went a bit too far with this particular example :P)

4. Make powerful friends and have them take care of my "problem"?

--- I guess this could stir some activity, maybe even start a resource war or something.

 

Out of the above, options 1 and 4 could be viable to a larger group of players, but not a majority. Options 2 and 3 are only available to few. Thinking about it a little more, not even my last suggestion would apply to a majority, since depleters could just keep everything at 2/3 and have the rest sit and watch, not collecting out of fear of being "punished". They'd have to ask land leaders for permission to collect below 2/3, and hope these leaders understand their situations and allow them to do so.

 

You said you're fighting against depletion with no purpose. I'm guessing your purpose is fixing the fact that they're not balanced. You've even suggested such tools yourself above, a long time ago. What changed?

Edited October 5, 2015 by Myth

[Ungod]

zany idea (for the record, I don't think depletion is bad, all my idea says is 'let's make whatever happens now more interesting'):
 
[spoiler]since there is rain for replenishing water, why not have fire to help herbs grow? I bet some would be happy if suddenly timezone didn't matter since new herbs appeared, unscheduled.
 
why fire? well, after a fire, plants grow faster, there is a renewal of the land. A firespell would either lower the herbs to a percentage of their current quantity or of the max quantity or even to zero (EDIT: and increase the regen rate of herbs by a percentage - from 25 to 50%, maybe) This could be system-triggered or player-triggered. A player could use the spell when the herbs are at 0 and therefore making more herbs grow, for everybody's benefit, or when he/she wants to prevent someone from depleting, by...depleting.
 
haven't thought about the drawbacks, there must be some.[/spoiler]

Edited October 5, 2015 by TheRichMerchant

[dst]

There have been ideas about replenishing herbs by players through spells.

 

But this fire...how would it work? Imo if the "fire" happens on the entire realm then the herbs that are still present on a scene should be destroyed before new ones grow (even if at a faster rate). If it happens only on specific scenes, how will you choose the scene(s)? Random?

[Miq]

I think i have at some place succested it but item reset could be done at a random time on every Tuesday (or what ever day maybe weekends are better). So you have 24 h were it can happen at any time.

Same with the resourse recovery. Let it be random between 05-10:00 or something like that.

 

As to the entire depletion issue, i like it as it is. 

[Ungod]

There have been ideas about replenishing herbs by players through spells.

 

But this fire...how would it work? Imo if the "fire" happens on the entire realm then the herbs that are still present on a scene should be destroyed before new ones grow (even if at a faster rate). If it happens only on specific scenes, how will you choose the scene(s)? Random?

well, since rain is global, so should fire be (yea, herbs in all scenes could go to zero, why not)

 

edit: it could be land-based...but it doesn't sound as good.

 

(rain is not global? by global I don't mean all scenes, but those with water)

Edited October 5, 2015 by TheRichMerchant

[Miq]

well, since rain is global, so should fire be.

 

I think you mean sunny weather :P

[Myth]

Yay for photosynthesis :p

[No one]

I think i have at some place succested it but item reset could be done at a random time on every Tuesday (or what ever day maybe weekends are better). So you have 24 h were it can happen at any time.

Same with the resourse recovery. Let it be random between 05-10:00 or something like that.

Well, even if I am at a disadvantage with the known scheduled times (item reset / resource regeneration) it is still a far less disadvantage then not knowing the times at all.

Consider it like this : if you know the time ... you have a chance to login 5 minutes before and have a chance at the items. But if you don't know the time ... all you have to do is stay online between those hours and refresh the page.

 

The 4AM / 4PM item reset, even if it is not on convenient times for me, if I really really  want an item, I will either wake up for 15 minute (for the 4AM) to try and get the item or I will set up a connection from work (4PM). See, I still have a chance at items. While not knowing when the items will get reset ... I really have no chance on being on time.

 

This item scheduling has been thought/fought and discussed a with Mur and you know what he said ? "What ? You want all the advantages ? Let others have a chance."

 

So, as long as you keep the time schedule fixed, Nobody should care which times are choosen.

[No one]

Whoaaa, hold on a bit. This was in no way directed only at you. :P

...

 

You said you're fighting against depletion with no purpose. I'm guessing your purpose is fixing the fact that they're not balanced. You've even suggested such tools yourself above, a long time ago. What changed?

Yea, sure, not me. I am the main character in there. :P

 

Just don't include the water with the rest of resources.

 

As for changing my mind : Nope. Didn't changed.

Then you'll say "But why do you deplete" ? And I will say : "

       simple,

          - either because I want to involve others into resource gathering (by offering trades), it is slow but it is working

          - or for personal goals (like the 5k / 10k of each herb gathered alone ... see my personal pages for more details)

          - or as some say: for resource domination of course.

Then you'll say : "Then why did you proposed those items?" And I will say:

     simple, because you all presented was overpowered - unfair items & spells & methods. So, I posted a more real / feasible item (from my point of view) to which not even I could complain much (but would still give me a chance to fight).

 

But ofcourse, it all depends on how it will be coded. If the coder will want to prevent depletes completely ... it will be simple (remove the capability to harvest under 50% or permit infinite harvesting). If this "resource war" is preferred ... then again they know how to do that.

 

So, all I can do is to state & support my points.

[Myth]

It can't just be that the suggestions are overpowered... that's simple to solve, you reduce timers, casts, make it more difficult to obtain... there are many ways to nerf an overpowered ability. But that first suggestions was simply blown out of the water, as if the concept itself wasn't viable. At least, that's what it looked like to me..

 

As for the second suggestion, it's actually quite similar to what you had in mind (post 2), spiced up with a few details :-/

 

But how (if) it will be coded depends on feedback regarding the current situation. If it's ok or not. :P

 

EDIT:

 

First 2 paragraphs = a.k.a. if the suggestions have a faulty concept, by all means, discard them; but if they don't, if all they need are adjustments, put them on the table for people to agree or disagree with :p

Edited October 5, 2015 by Myth