Public items, resource gathering and STEALING!

[Muratus del Mur]

I want to write this down publicly to keep track of it but also to see reactions.

 

Public items that allow resource collecting bring a big big gameplay .."situation". I can't call it "issue" because it is all intended for, it just changes things a bit more. Anyone can load them and anyone can gather the results, regardless of their involvement in the process prior to the collecting.

 

It is why i think this is the best place and time in md development to implement a feature that was in plan for an undefined period, and that had some concept issues that i was unable to solve at that time, but now it makes more sense and i think it found its place in md finally.

 

STEALING

 

basic idea is that you can attempt to take a freshly gathered resource back from someone if you try within one minute of the gathering. In addition, gathering from public items will be notified in chat and player will be locked in place for a couple of minutes (makes sense, you need some time to gather, someoen else could interfere with the process and take them away from you before you get to run away with them).

 

One try per person (long reuse interval), if its tried too early or too late it returns negative and lowers a "stealing" skill. If you succeed, you get this skill increased. This skill will be used someplace else, or it can increase the timespan during which you can take someones freshly gathered resources away.

 

In this way, a team of players will better protect or rob a certain place of resources. Team work will be promoted as opposed to individual. Md offers enough space for individual progress, but teaming up offers a nice way to make friends and deal with difficult situations

 

Suggestion, to be considered:

Stealing skill should have two tags options one that means stealing as in taking away somethign that is not yours and one that means taking back something...i am unsure of the right words, like bounty hunter but different.

 

I hope you like these ideas, and i hope i get the time to implement them at some point because they are not that easy

[Soothing Sands]

This sounds awesome, and it would be interesting how invisibility and stealing would complement each other, if at all. It also seems like people who have been complaining about not being able to "protect" resources very well would find this to be pretty much what they are looking for. And also really cool, is that skills are developed by actions, and you can't gain skill in something you don't do :)

 

(word suggestions, robbery or theft is negative, while vigilance/vigilante is kind of positive)

[Fang Archbane]

It's official.

Good by Day.

Bad by Night.

[No one]

I said I not comment anymore but it would be fun to see the outcome of such log:

: player 2 gathers treebark

: player 1 steal from player 2 treebark

: player 2 retrieve/steal back from player 1 treebark

: player 1 steal from player 2 treebark

: player 2 retrieve/steal back from player 1 treebark

: player 1 steal from player 2 treebark

: player 2 retrieve/steal back from player 1 treebark

: player 1 steal from player 2 treebark

: player 2 retrieve/steal back from player 1 treebark

: player 1 steal from player 2 treebark

: player 2 retrieve/steal back from player 1 treebark

... and so on

(wrong)

 

And second of all : plain bullshit (though a strange concept within an online game).

 

I would really like to see the "morale" concept applied to this "stealing" concept.

 

Third: one stone would require to gather 66 minute, so, one stays there 66 minutes to gather a resource then one thief would come and steal its resource.

What is moral thing there ? Or it should not be ? (wrong)

 

Forth: one has 3 shared items of same kind, he gathers in tandem with another thief , so : one gets high stats in harvesting herbs, one gets high stats in thievery. (wrong)

 

Five: Because of being upset, the gatherers could deplete the resources. (wrong also).

__________________________

Adapting concept:

a) instead of thievery, the item would go back on the ground

this would go to increasing stats on both sides

(still wrong)

 

b) the resource can be stolen from the thief by another thief ... will this ever end ?

(still wrong)

 

 

__________________________

Final result:

Except from the "new concept" I don't see anything morally good / any progress.

 

Trolling : The other game's similar concept is : when you attack a player, you can also take some of its resources. This makes the big players reach and the poor players quitters. Or in our case you should be able to steal items / creature / stats. Why not steal names VE / VP / AP ?

 

 

_____________________________

I'm waiting for any other "idea analysis" ?

 

 

Please explain this:

Md offers enough space for individual progress, but teaming up offers a nice way to make friends and deal with difficult situations

 

We still need the old "reputation voting" so that a bad idea can be seen "voted out" on first post. As we all know some never read ever long topics but still post "i didn't read this but it is a good idea". Plain stupid "Like" system.

Edited June 16, 2013 by No one

[Nimrodel]

if stealing and murder are a part of MD, i suggest they be jailable. After all, thieves and murderers are thrown into jail. Temporary and lifetime.

[Kyphis the Bard]

With the new bushes and teamwork resource items, I would suggest the following in response to your plans to make it so that these items can be restricted to those contributing to its produce in each period, while still allowing for theft and interference:

Group resource items generate their specific (refined) resources for those who contribute. However, a comparable, non-regenerating resource is also added to the location, which anyone can gather. Gathering of the general resources depletes the refined resources.

 

For example, useing the new bushes:

Say one bush can produce 20 fruits per loading cycle. The location the bush is located in would have its local resources increased to include [0/5 herbs].

The number of herbs available does not regenerate like other herbs, but is tied to the number of fruit available on the bush. If the bush has all 20, then there are 5/5 herbs available. If there are 19 fruits there are only 4.75/5 herbs available, and so on.

If someone harvests a unit of herbs from that scene, then the amount of fruit available decreases by 4.

 

This means that anyone can steal the produce of the bushes, however only those who contribute to the production can actually get the fruit itself.

 

 

 

Additionally, so that people can actually still harvest such common resources as herbs from a scene, and so people trying to grow fruit have a chance to get warning of someone try to steal and respond to it, I propose the following on top of the above:

If a location has herbs (or whatever base resource) for a reason other than the teamwork items, then all the normal herbs must be depleted before the bushes herbs can be gathered.

For example: A scene has 10 herbs due to having a lot of trees.

Having a lot of herbs already, it becomes a logical place to add a bush, so the scene's gets two herb counts (first is 10/10, second is 0/5), or maybe even just the one (10/10+5)

The bush is loaded up, and the location's resources change to 10/10 and 5/5 (or 10+5/10+5)

Someone wants to sabotage the fruit picking, so begins harvesting herbs. They have to get the count to 0/10 before the fruit pickers get their count down to 0.75/5 or lower (or 0+x/15 before the fruit pickers get the +x down to 0.75 or lower)

 

This lets people be dicks, while still letting people respond and possibly outmaneuver them.

 

 

 

 

 

One last, technically unrelated suggestion: Have the amount of time that must be waited after a full harvest before a new loading can begin be based on the amount of time taken to deplete all the fruit/herbs from the previous harvest, with the faster the fruit depletes the more time has to be waited.

This still allows people to harvest fruit, while giving more of a point to sabotage. ie, not only are you stopping them this time, but you are slowing them down for next time (even more so if the fruit pickers speed up in response to your sabotage, so a double edged sword)

This works especially well with the prior suggestions about representative resources as well, as the fruit pickers can simply leave the last three pieces of fruit on the bush for a longer period to try to reduce the impact of a quick harvest (although if this is changed to harvest time per unit vs total harvest time then it strikes a fair balance, giving power to both sides relatively fairly). This can be made more interesting by having fruit rot on the bush if left too long (and would that increase or decrease the time until next use? Logic says reduce, since it would be extra compost)

 

 

 

 

Suggestion, to be considered:

Stealing skill should have two tags options one that means stealing as in taking away somethign that is not yours and one that means taking back something...i am unsure of the right words, like bounty hunter but different.

 

Retrieval?

 

 

 

 

In terms of addressing some of No One's concerns in regards to the original post, here are some suggestions:

• If you attempt to steal (successfully or not), you have to wait a period of time before you can try again (on anyone), just like attack cooldown, except a successful attempt has a longer cooldown.
• You may only attempt to steal an individual item once (successful or not). This means if someone harvests a log, and you steal it, then someone steals it from you, you can't steal it back and have to wait for a new log to steal.

 

In terms of addressing Nimrodel's desire for crime and punishment, here are some suggestions (although, I do NOT approve of them, just putting them forward for argument's sake):

• Anyone who steals successfully gets the "THIEF!" status for five minutes. This behaves exactly like the fugitive status, except if you attempt to log off with it active the server maintains your character within your last location until the status is removed (ie you log out but you can still be grabbed)
• Anyone who is grabbed is sent to jail for 24 hours, after which they are automatically returned to the location they where grabbed in (this is the part I disagree with, as people will use it for trips to the jail)
• If a thief is captured, the stolen item is returned to whoever originally harvested it if they still have it (obviously not, if it has been stolen again or palmed off onto some other stooge)
• VARIATION: The thief status sets your AP to 5, and your regen timer to the same duration as your status timer. This means you have a timer telling you how long until you are successful in your theft, and also means you can only move upto 5 scenes away (assuming viscosity is kind to you ;)) making hunting for you a bit easier.

A five minute timer should be long enough for a victim to organize a posse to hunt a thief down.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Kyphis the Bard

[Menhir]

I´m not in favor of the stealing ability at all like you wrote in the opening topic. The only way I can think of something similar implemented would be if one player starts collecting below the regeneration rate (60%) then stealing from him/her should be possible or any other kind of "treatment" - not to judge but to compensate the loss in regeneration. If I go to a forest an cut all trees the people living around the forest would be very unpleased and would do something against it in the future. We should have an option to do the same. I know that all resources are growing fast in MD in comparision to a RL situation but with the future importance of items and resources people should have some sort of regulation ability in their hands to balance such behavior. I remember people logging in (maybe alts of someone who is upset) and depleting all resources because of being upset just to hurt others. If we can only watch others (maybe ingame enemies) how they are able to stop us from supporting our buildings or constructions, gardens before the fall apart, the whole ability would be useless if we have no possibilities to counter those "attacks". A garden could be destroyed easily and will be as I guess if the gardener and his helpers have no chance to protect it from being attacked - same with the stealing ability. 

 

My 2 cent

[Chewett]

*From: Xavax (ID:245864)
*sent 4 hours and 58 minutes ago Read later

Bushie at Road of Battles
i read the list in lower portion and if it helps:

make it so 10 or 15 people need to sign up(first 10-15 to "click list" would be slated as "allowed"to use) to tend to this plant, this will allow you to limit the number of people and retain the ability to steal from them...

Yes i know it looks good on paper like that, i also realize i have no clue how you would impliment/code that feature...

[No one]

Trolling on topic :

@Menhir: I do remind you that you constantly get memory stones below 60%.

 

 

_____________________________

Still considering an immoral stupid idea.

Will the cyber***ing be allowed / enforced too ?

[Maebius]

Yes i know it looks good on paper like that, i also realize i have no clue how you would impliment/code that feature...

 

There's always keys upon clicking (Story mode anyone?), or an array of names on the bush of "this week's Owners"....  anywho....  :P

 

I like the idea of stealing and recovering as an idea.    The way I read it, the situation No One mentinoed would be avoided by the "ability Cooldown" similar to fighting, so that the "most activity" would read as:

 

*Bush produces a Fruit*

*Maebius Harvests a Fruit*

*Somebody Steals the Fruit from Maebius*

*nadrolski recovers the Fuit from Somebody*

-fin-   

(Maebius ability to harvest is in cooldown, as is nadrolski and Somebody... so no more stealing is possible... unless a forth person runs over and tries to Steal from Nadrolski?)

 

 

This would work very similarly to the Shared Tools, where a number of people gather at a specific time to try and snatch public tools.  In the current case, its' the fastest collection-click that wins.   With Mur's suggested idea, others would have a chance to grab something too.

With teleports and Jump-to-Leaders, and our usual spells,  this would make an interesting (if sometimes frustrating) frenzy of activity.

 

I say, go for it.

[dst]

*From: Xavax (ID:245864)
*sent 4 hours and 58 minutes ago Read later


make it so 10 or 15 people need to sign up(first 10-15 to "click list" would be slated as "allowed"to use)

10 or 15 people? What do you think MD is? WoW with millions of players? :D

[Chewett]

*From: Xavax (ID:245864)
*sent 4 hours and 58 minutes ago Read later

Bushie at Road of Battles
i read the list in lower portion and if it helps:

make it so 10 or 15 people need to sign up(first 10-15 to "click list" would be slated as "allowed"to use) to tend to this plant, this will allow you to limit the number of people and retain the ability to steal from them...

Yes i know it looks good on paper like that, i also realize i have no clue how you would impliment/code that feature...

 

as a FYI im only posting this as it was sent to me instead of being posted :) but i think most people understood that.

[Maebius]

 
as a FYI im only posting this as it was sent to me instead of being posted :) but i think most people understood that.

 
(I knew that but couldn't stop the snark)....  And thus, Stealing your thunder seemed apropos in this thread.  :cool:  
- - -
 
One thought that did come up, to steer back on-topic.   With the availability of Ports and Jumps and Legislator Items and such...  I'm not sure the "frenzy of activity"  would even work very well.   It only takes a moment for a player with a fast internet to "steal + Jump + Run"  into some high viscosity or "locked"  scene and the resource would be gone.
 
Thus, in theory I like the idea of stealing and Retrieval/recovery.  
In practice, I think there are a LOT of loopholes to exploit, which I've seen already in-person while trying to grab the buckets in MDA.   So, keep those in mind perhaps?

(edit to add bolding and italics for emphasis)

Edited June 18, 2013 by Maebius

[No one]

Congratz Maebius, first to post the loopholes.

I wonder when one would see / post about them.

[Menhir]

Trolling on topic :

@Menhir: I do remind you that you constantly get memory stones below 60%.

 

 

_____________________________

Still considering an immoral stupid idea.

Will the cyber***ing be allowed / enforced too ?

As you know the regeneration rate on memory stones is always 1 per day except you go under 1/4 or 1/2, so what is the point of your statement? It doesn`t matter if you collect a memory stone at 4/4 or 3/4 or 2/4 next day you have 1 more on the table. Maybe you are able to explain what you mean a little bit more precise? 

[No one]

Maybe you should also read what you write:

I´m not in favor of the stealing ability at all like you wrote in the opening topic. The only way I can think of something similar implemented would be if one player starts collecting below the regeneration rate (60%) then stealing from him/her should be possible or any other kind of "treatment" - not to judge but to compensate the loss in regeneration.....

 

Trolling on topic :

@Menhir: I do remind you that you constantly get memory stones below 60%.

...

Meaning that almost ALL your stones could be stolen :D as you almost always, get them below 60%

 

 

_____________________________

Still considering an immoral stupid idea.

Will the cyber***ing be allowed / enforced too ?

[Menhir]

Maybe you should also read what you write:

 

Meaning that almost ALL your stones could be stolen :D as you almost always, get them below 60%

 

 

_____________________________

Still considering an immoral stupid idea.

Will the cyber***ing be allowed / enforced too ?

Or maybe there should be a change in the regeneration of the low quantity resources? Otherwise they would be able to get stolen yes ... 

The possibility to steal a resource might be connected somehow to the quantity too? If there is only 1 resources at a spot it should be harder to steal it then 1 of 60 Water from a river - or isn´t this relevant at all? For me the resource which is more rare should be better "protected" from stealing - if stealing should possible at all.

[rikstar]

I can already see a guild coming up called "thieves guild". Maybe people could only steal those resources if they have certain kind of tools?

[nadrolski]

it is pretty damn obvious that people against this idea are those current big-headed bullies who hoards resources, disrespects community "resource ordinances" then pointing fingers and blaming people who harvested properly before them.

 

it doesn't take any effort to harvest resources especially when you don't care about preservation/conservation, but it will bring a hell lot of butt hurt to them when another attempts to steal what they hoard.

 

i am strongly in favor of this kind of equalizer.

[No one]

NOT ON TOPIC but replying to Nadrolski ... also not on topic.

 

Yea, yea Nad, I know, you are talking about me.

Everybody knows that once in a while someone else manages to surprise you and your friends and "steals" the shared buckets from under your control. Do cry.

 

As for "Hoarding" , it is that thing you did when you were holding 10 buckets on your char to "gather water for others".

Unlike you, I don't "hoards resources" I gather them and I spend my time doing that.

[spoiler]

No one: can you please head back to MB & MDA
nadrolski: huh? why?
: nadrolski collects water
: No one collects water
: No one collects water
: nadrolski collects water
: nadrolski collects water
: nadrolski collects water
nadrolski: 41/60 Water

[/spoiler]

 

I asked you politely to let me gather from one place.

I can only hold the items for a few days and far between and unlike you, I don't have at discretion buckets which gather only 3 times faster them the shared ones (8 minutes versus 23 minutes) and only 1 water at a time (unlike your 2).

 

You didn't let me collect from that place so ... instead of making a fuss about it I took water from where you wouldn't, from MB.

Don't worry, I still left 1 in each location instead of drying the places up.

 

 

So, in the end ... I hoard resource (like that's a bad thing) gathering them conscientiously day by day, week after week, month after month and I am the bad guy ?

In the end it is, I know , my lose because I will never be able to sell the entire amount for the right price but then ... I never will want to sell any. Do you mind ?

 

Keep on trying to stop me, like I care. Do use 3 shared items and bring your entire guild with you.

It only shows what you always tried to obtain "control". The resource's monopole  has been your war since the beginning.

 

As for "i am strongly in favor of this kind of equalizer" :)

Please, you gathered 8 water and I managed only 2 (yea, yea, I had 2 shared items and you had just 1).

So, i will have the opportunity to steal 8 water while you can get only 2.

 

 

Stealing is not worthy for those that have skills and really care about their skills and jobs, like you (for water) and me (herbs).

Stealing would just be an excuse for the lame loud mouth bastards too lazy to work / spend time working. Too lazy to say : "please" or " please let me gather in this place".

 

As I stated above, I don't like stealing, then neither thieves, snakes, liars.

 

____________________________________________________________

That's about all I can say to both Nad and for the topic.

[Zyrxae]

Suggestion, to be considered:
Stealing skill should have two tags options one that means stealing as in taking away somethign that is not yours and one that means taking back something...i am unsure of the right words, like bounty hunter but different.

For the first tag, how about simply "Thief!"

Anyone with the Thief! tag could be grabbed like a fugitive, as Kyphis suggested, although maybe their punishment shouldn't be jail but the pillory (movelock + throwable rotten tomatoes at Plains of Deceit)

 

It only takes a moment for a player with a fast internet to "steal + Jump + Run" into some high viscosity or "locked" scene and the resource would be gone.

"Vigilante" (props to Soothing Sands) would be a good option for the tag of taking back stolen property, possibly including recovering other people's stolen property for them (player A steals from player B and runs away into Golemus, whereupon B asks C, who has GG loyalty, to go after A. C tracks down A and retrieves the stolen item, then returns it to B...or decides to keep it for theirself. The plot can simmer and thicken from there.
 
No one, nadrolski:
Make collecting tools—water buckets, candy boxes, herb baskets, etc—stealable shortly after they're grabbed. An expert thief (one with a high "borrowing" skill) might loiter in capitals around the reset and stand a(n un)fair chance of nabbing a tool while some poor citizen is trying to take it.

Edited June 20, 2013 by Zyrxae

[Change]

I know I've heard a quote somewhere about how thieves spend more time in getting something for free than if they got it legitimately. Hopefully the stealing mechanics will reward sharp wits.

 

Maybe the thieves could be hung when they're caught? And perhaps there could be a very rare, hard to find plant, that can provide life. (It would produce one, life giving fruit after say...5 different people water it for seven days in a row). A very creative name for it would be.. the shrubbery of life.

 

Anyways. I'd love all of these features. The problem comes in making it so that these features aren't easy tools for trolling.

Edited June 21, 2013 by Change

[nadrolski]

...

 

As for "i am strongly in favor of this kind of equalizer" :)

Please, you gathered 8 water and I managed only 2 (yea, yea, I had 2 shared items and you had just 1).

So, i will have the opportunity to steal 8 water while you can get only 2.

 

...

 

that is true, i out-harvest you at Golems' Mill; but when you arrived at that scene, did i complained about you out-harvesting me at other GG water sources (Wraith's Wreck, Ivory Lighthouse, etc.)? prior going to Golems Mill, i already saw you're done with them so i silently walked away to GM. and as if, you talked and act like you're the owner of GG and wants all intruders to get the hell out of your way, else they (which includes innocent citizens) taste the wrath of your ability.

 

next time, if you're going to defend yourself or try to explain some things, give all the details so your fans won't have misleading conclusions

 

- - -

 

ever since, i don't really want to think people like you are the 'bad guys', neither i am complaining about your bullying in-game, rather i always try to understand them because i know how hard it is the life they are going through in real life, thus they act that way in the other realms.

[Jester]

How productive, whining about each other on a topic meant to introduce a new feature.

 

Thieves should have to be caught. Stealing shouldn't get you a tag, but stealing around enough people could have some kind of "accuse" option (similar to grabbing a fugitive). So if you harvest an item on your own someone could grab it from you, but if you're harvesting at GoE theives would be hard pressed to steal without getting caught, though the invisibility spell could be fun for that.

 

A "reputation" statistic could be interesting too, being accused lowers your reputation, stealing an item back could raise it (though there would need to be the opposite of the "accuse" option) and if your reputation gets low enough you get the thief tag.

 

This would also be really fun because enough theives could accuse someone who was retrieving an item of stealing it, and the retriever could end up with the thief tag. Theives aren't supposed to play fair.

 

I'm getting way ahead of myself here, but items could play a part as well. A chest for guarding a resource while you're gathering it, a set of lockpicks for opening the chest... etc.

 

Bottom line though, stealing has to be harder than gathering, because stealing is more fun.

Edited June 23, 2013 by Jester

[No one]

So if you harvest an item on your own someone could grab it from you, but if you're harvesting at GoE theives would be hard pressed to steal without getting caught, though the invisibility spell could be fun for that..

Continue your idea.

 

So what if "you can grab" the thief ?

PO was a fugitive idling at GoE. That is what you want ? Another bs punishment system?

 

Why don't you imagine a really innovative feature ?

A way to introduce recipes faster / huge amounts of them.

More ways to impact gaming experience through items.

 

C'mon MD, you can do better then "stealing" ? Is that the you want MD to teach us / the children among us ?