Research - Worst part of MD?

[dst]

MD is slowly slipping away and we have ppl researching stuff in secret. MD needs your feedback and ideas.

 

 

Imo that is the WORST "feature" of MD. Everybody is so hush hush and secretive about their research and proud that they "research" stuff. But except very few people that make their research public, everybody else keeps the research under tons of locks but they do brag that they are "into research". Bleah..

[Azull]

Maybe that's because a lot of people:

A) "say" they want to do research, while in reality they want you to tell them what you know without actually doing any work for it.

B) "say"they want to share notes on a subject, while in reality its answer A all over again. 

C) Knowledge, (any kind) is currency.

 

That said, I am and always were prepared to share information with most people on a quid pro quo basis. But I won't cater to freeloaders and lazy people.

[Burns]

To my impression, many people don't want to go public or share because they are too scared that their results are straight out wrong.

Lots of people have interesting ideas, but they don't want to share them because they are in doubt about them, and are scared to be branded as dumb if they missed something that's pretty obvious once you know about it.

 

Maybe some of you remember the little challenge Mur introduced about the scenes on the wall over the shelves in the Log Review Room. People had the wildest ideas about it, all of them more or less founded. But once you knew the solution, it was so incredibly obvious that you simply felt stupid for not seeing it. I figure that's how most people feel about sharing their researches.

 

[if you're confused now, because you either forgot what that challenge was or because you weren't around at the time, go to the archives, find the log review room and ponder for a while before following this link]

[lashtal]

I really don't think Research is the worst part of MD. I don't even think it's something the majority is interested in.

It seems to me a deeper (not better, I'm not judging here) layer in MD.

I think it's more likely for new people to be attracted by creatures, fighting, spells and such... While research is something that comes at later stages and grows together with confidence / experience of this realm.

So, I don't see this research "issue" a mass problem, but rather something concerning lab rats, book worms and so on.  :D

 

As for the hush-hush attitude.. What about MD's attitude towards spoilers?

Why should one be open regarding, let's say, principles or symbolism or shades.. when we are not even supposed to share the ritual to beat LR guards?

[dst]

So basically you're denying the less gifted with the research ability the access to information because they have nothing to give you back?

I thought research is done for the good of MD not the good of certain individuals. Am I wrong?

 

And if you are "researching" stuff but you're not willing to give it to the community then why brag about it? Just so people would know you have a "currency"? 

 

I've seen Mur posting stuff about his ideas (aka research) on the forum (I don't know...the 8 fold thingy and the symbols one and maybe others that I cannot remember). Right now I remember NOTHING similar posted by any member of MD that brags about their research.

 

And I am talking STRICTLY about RESEARCH and not knowledge. Cause I agree knowledge is a currency. But is this "research" really knowledge or is just a bunch of speculations about this and that which MAY be accurate but it can also be VERY WRONG? But people tend to believe they have something valuable and are willing to trade it ONLY for something similar.

 

Wouldn't it be easier if this research would be shared and everyone interested (and not our daily trolls) would share an opinion? Wouldn't that be the point of research? Or is it something super fancy, hush hush that you only brag about and use it as a potential currency?

 

 

LE: heh...took me too long to hit submit so Burns and lash already replied...

Edited March 19, 2014 by dst

[Maebius]

Just trying to clarify the terminology here, regarding "research"  and "knowledge".

 

To make an example:  if I have an idea to wander all the scenes of the mainlands and see if they show signs of "wind" blowing.  (smoke at the Defensive Quarters in LR,  Trees bent in many scenes, etc).  Map that to the Mainlands Map with fancy arrows like the weather channel uses.      Is that resulting map  the type of thing we mean by "research"?  

As far as I know, that wouldn't be any sort of Spoiler, would it?    If I finished that project, and kept it secret, or shared it openly, how would that be perceived?

[dst]

I'll give you the example that hit me today (and from where the whole idea came - No one's post was just the incentive to spill it out - and he also pointed me the link)

magicduel.com/member.php?p=Laphers

 

His Exploring MD thingy. That is what I consider research. How to beat the Loreroot Guards is knowledge imo.

 

Research = bunch of observations and ideas drawn from those observations

Knowledge = facts

 

So I would say that your info Maeb is research.

[lashtal]

Cudos to dst for clarifying the difference between research and knowledge, but what I meant still stands.

 

Research is based on knowledge, it doesn't come out of the blue.

So: if I'm supposed not to share knowledge openly, how can I share my speculations on aspects that may require certain knowledge?  :huh:

 

 

For example, the dark character who hands us the white cube in the story mode.

Knowing who-it-is is "knowledge" (stuff said or confirmed by Mur), which I suppose is to be considered kinda-secret-restricted?

(I didn't decide MD to be that way, I adapted to it)

 

Now, I have my own speculations about this dark character and its possible meaning from an archetypal point of view.

Not that I'm jealous of my thoughts, but these speculations are the result of my research, my ideas, my point of view.

They mean something to me but can be pure bullshit to anybody else. They can't be used as currency, while "knowledge" can.

So, nothing to brag about.

 

Then what, usually I share this stuff with people who show interest (not necessarily knowledge) in similar topics, but not random people on the forum.

This is mostly done via PM, I see it fitting, even romantic, although not for everyone. "Everything for everyone every time" makes me suspicious. 

It's not about being snobbish, nose-up, it's about sharing thoughts with people with similar interests. I never looked at people's active days or IQ.

[dst]

Maybe you (this you=lashtal) personally don't intend to look snobbish or brag and all that stuff. But most MD researchers brag about it. And even that would not be a problem but they think they know stuff but never give a change to anyone to come with counter arguments for the ideas. Again, I emphasis on the fact that I don't mind the actual research, I mind the attitude.

 

I, personally, am not into this stuff. It's just not appealing to me. BUT I DO like to read stuff like the one in Laphers' papers. Or Rendril's - he has a similar research in his papers - or at least had last time I check. I haven't seen either Laphers or Rendril bragging about that. But I have seen others saying they have tons of doc on <insert place here> with MD research topics. And NEVER see anything from them about those topics. And they feel proud and better than others. Good for them. But for me they are only braggers that contribute nothing to this world. Yet they consider themselves the cherry on top of the cake.

 

The below "you" is general:

I agree that maybe "research" should come as a deeper layer of MD but why later? What if a noob* sees something we, the vets, miss because we have already a mindset for MD? Why would you deny yourself that enlightenment? Why would you deny the noob a preview of what's beyond crits and fights and all that? Just so you can feel special? Newsflash! We are all special! :D

 

 

* I know "noob" is considered insulting but this is how I have written it for years...cannot change old habits...and don't want to :D

[Shadowseeker]

I'm not sure if you consider me one of the people who're bragging about it, but I hope I haven't given that impression. I openly admit to not having really done any research for a long long time. :)

 

The most productive times where sharing occurs is if discussions about a topic come up somehow which then leads to discoveries. But that doesn't really happen often, if at all. I used to have that more, not sure why it stopped in MD. People just talk less in general I think? Even disregarding messengers.

 

That aside:

 

The one thing I dislike is that often enough research and knowledge doesn't get seperated. I try very hard personally to seperate from "confirmed" things and "theories"...this is another point where sharing information is risky. You essentially trust the other to have confirmed things if you accept it as is, which is not always the case.

 

I do however agree that research as such is really flawed, since there is no real authority to confirm aside form Mur, and any answer you expect will be nonexistent or "soon" unless you really come up with something good. Part of the solution that was proposed was the Research and Clues system, but that's been defunct. In theory I can manage everything of it as is (aside from the fact that I cannot reject submissions at all, only approve things), but practically I'm not even sure if I'm really the "best" person for this not are there even remotely enough clues right now, more need to be written up. I have a partial set of things written up which I might submit later for proofreading by Mur, if it ever comes to expansion of that system.

 

I have and will rely on old notes, files I keep, but mostly on my memory, which can fail, and odd things get buried. I used to bounce ideas a lot more so they kept fresh, but as it is, I have buried so many things that are relevant, but without the topic coming up I won't even remember I knew something....or fail to realize I forgot things that I should know.

[Ackshan Bemunah]

[SIGSEGV]

Edited November 12, 2014 by Ackshan Bemunah

[Azull]

dst. I'm not sure if both these you's are directed at me, but I'll reply as if they are.
 

So basically you're denying the less gifted with the research ability the access to information because they have nothing to give you back?

I thought research is done for the good of MD not the good of certain individuals. Am I wrong?

 

And if you are "researching" stuff but you're not willing to give it to the community then why brag about it? Just so people would know you have a "currency"?

 

No, I don't deny access to research information to anyone. When it comes to "trading" information, there is always something that I would consider a reasonable trade. What I get in return doesn't have to be related to said information, it doesn't have to be of same "worth". Sometimes there isn't even an apparent causal relation, if you get my meaning. It can be anything really. A good joke, answering a random question, some funny rp or just being interested. "tit for tat" in the broadest sense. So, if I can, I'll happily point out something that struck me as interesting in regard to the topic at hand. Or, if I can't, (which happens more frequently) point to someone who can.
 
But as I said before, I see no point in spoon feeding every observation someone might make while researching something. I think its better if some effort is put into it. "the journey being more important than the destination" and all that.

As to bragging or acting snobbish about supposed "knowledge" one might have. I don't think I ever done that. Even if i was inclined to, I don't "know" much anyway. I agree with most of what you say about that. To quote one of my favorite authors "Selling the sizzle is well and good. But at some point you have to produce the sausage"

Edited March 19, 2014 by Azull

[Jubaris]

I would like to call upon that general rule of "no spoilers" that MD holds. If it wasn't present, I would like to share a lot of my thoughts on the open forum.

 

Take a look on Mur's Show of Force.

 

The answer to the question "Who killed Marind?", is something almost none of you knew. Some very smart figured it out but kept the secret and i thank them for that.

 

 

This is just an example of how in MD research conclusions should be shared carefully.

One more proof to it - research clues, they are not openly distributed, you have to invest points to get them, a lot of effort.

 

 

There is one more thing to it. If you openly share your conclusions, you 'violate' opportunity of others to understand a said subject, and to understand is a delicate process, it has to be bent individually - I personally am not too trustful of my teaching skills, maybe I will earn that trait in time, which is the reason I am not that active in sharing thoughts, I simply don't know how to do it appropriately.

 

 

Regarding you saying newbies are 'banned' from such knowledge because of our system - I beg to differ. There are many examples of players who quickly got their way into research, faster and with more ease than some veterans that were there trying to do the same for years (not that I try to insult anyone, I'm making a point that the system is not anti-newb constructed).

I'll pick out Ravenstrider as an example, but there are many more.

 

 

Also, MD puts a lot of weight on symbols, and symbols have a lot to do with perception, relative and individual thing, not that universal.

Which is great, because someone can bring something new and cool to a subject that was thought to be researched fully.

[Yrthilian]

Ah something i can get into.

 

OK so research in MD. it is a near impossibility to confirm or deny research. That is why it is so hard to do. As an old fart in MD back when i was just a fresh one :P the people i spoke with and how they made me research is what kept me playing in the begging. I am not a person interested in combat or collecting creatures hell back in the day MD was not even focused on that aspect but it has shifted a long way since then. Renavoid was a master at making a player think. Someone i respect a hugh amount even after the events of him leaving.

 

Research back then was finding someone whom you believed had knowledge and was willing to share in a way but not easily. How Renavoid did is how i try to pass knowledge/research and to be honest in MD they are more or less one and the same. Unless you have a "MUR said" or a confirmed 100% peace of information from Mur everything else is just research.

 

People guard what they have done because they cant get it fully confirmed and or someone else claims it as there research. It has happened in the past and people know it and wont really share what they think. It has been tried many time since for people to come together and share what they have but it has yet to actually work.

 

Research requires a level of commitment and in the past when those that where getting aid from MUR would not share it created an image that one must not share what they know as MUR does not want you too. I AM NOT SAYING THAT IS THE CASE JUST THAT IS A PERCEIVED IMAGE. Sorry to put that in bold but just want to be clear on that.

 

As an old play i share in a way with players that does not spell it out for them. I comment on what they say to me and in my comment i am ether saying they are on the right path or to think of something else in there research that should help them. I don't tell them the what i believe is the correct answer but i do point them in a direction that should.

 

The issue here is not all people can or want to do that. Some just give up when they hear that they have some bad information or an idea that does not fit. But the lack of being able to confirm what you think might be the answer is what make research so hard to do and make it something that you may never get an answer to. Even though i don't log in much anymore i still hold onto idea and still work on them out of MD more because there are less and less player i can connect with that want to research.

 

The systems that where built to help in that area are not good enough as of yet and cant be automated to well ether. Without being told for sure that the ones moderating that area Know the answer as i am sure they are also research and not of what they have is going to be correct and in that you may end up getting false information. again i am not saying that this is the case but it is what i reprieve could be the case.

 

So far to my knowledge MUR has not told anyone the correct answers from his point of view not that she should but then that make Mur still the only one that can say you are right or wrong. But then if you are right how does one document that in a way that is is not a spoiler and make it too easy for others.

 

Research in MD is just one of those areas that unless a linear line is drawn (not going to happen in MD as that is not the nature of MD) you will not really know the answers or should i say the questions ;p

[Jubaris]

One more thing.

 

Dst says:

I thought research is done for the good of MD not the good of certain individuals. Am I wrong?

 

 

Why do you think so?

[dst]

Because you all praise love and happiness amongst MD players. And you say we should help each other.

 

As for the noobs, I think I remember saying that certain noobs who have the "research gene" will start researching  no matter what while the others will need some time before they learn there is such possibility in MD. I didn't say they are banned. They are allowed to but how could they do it if they have no idea about it?

[Nimrodel]

Call me very... umm... tunnel visioned, but i have learnt maximum about MD's 'stuff behind the scenes' via solving quests. Simple example - Burnsy's Angien expansion quest which me and duxie solved together opened a whole new dimension for us. If MD was yin for me that time, it became a symbol of harmony after that. Same happened after my 'In the Eye of the Beholder' Quest. Hell The whole purpose of me setting that quest was to gain knowledge (yes I am lazy and selfish. I bribe people with rewards to gain knowledge) I do the same with my other quests by asking for feedback to gather stats and data about preferences and general psychology. Lets say if a certain sect of people dont want to share what they think is research because they don't like handing people ready made stuff served in a platter, then think of ways to make people work for it. Setting up spell doc quests is a very interesting way to gather impressions, collect statistical data or whatever you deem as research. Being an LHO was another one before the noob levels dropped down. Hell The questions younger players ask forces you to actually go deeper in the issue, you get to learn a lot of other stuff than the issue at hand. You want to learn about a specific aspect of combat, set a tournament conditioned to your needs and you'll get plenty of data. You want to learn more about symbology or want to gain impressions about a certain finding, make a quest about that. 

 

As I said, tunnel visioned. I need incentive to work on a particular thing . Else my span of attention is as big as the size of a fly. Maybe even smaller.

[Ary Endleg]

Mur confirmed? Why is that even mentioned? Mur usually always says in his research posts that it is just his opinion, his way of seeing things, his ideas and it's by no means correct or that it ever will be. He might be explaining how and why he made things but if you pay attention you will notice that everything in MD can be seen in many different ways.

There is no final solution, no complete and correct knowledge. Mur said that he wants to keep player's mind busy with thinking. You can search but the only thing you will find is sharper mind.

[Chewett]

Mur confirmed? Why is that even mentioned? Mur usually always says in his research posts that it is just his opinion, his way of seeing things, his ideas and it's by no means correct or that it ever will be. He might be explaining how and why he made things but if you pay attention you will notice that everything in MD can be seen in many different ways.

There is no final solution, no complete and correct knowledge. Mur said that he wants to keep player's mind busy with thinking. You can search but the only thing you will find is sharper mind.

You are a little young to know this, But in the past certain ideas and concepts were "sold" to Mur and he could confirm, deny or point you in another direction. This is normalyl when researching into MD lore. Some parts of MD lore has indeed a correct answer.

[Kyphis the Bard]

You are a little young to know this, But in the past certain ideas and concepts were "sold" to Mur and he could confirm, deny or point you in another direction. This is normalyl when researching into MD lore. Some parts of MD lore has indeed a correct answer.

Like whether or not MD is a cube or not, to take an easy example.

[Muratus del Mur]

the answers for the research are not right or wrong, they come in shades, but eventually if you put together all the info available in different corners of md, or shall i say minds of md people, some info becomes impossible and other info becomes obvious. Reaching deep on an obvious path could get you very high and very fast, so yes, knowledge is currency, and for the others is like Endleg said "You can search but the only thing you will find is sharper mind."

 

both cases are fine. The wors case are the research done secretly without any kind of attempt to compare the results with others and to see if you are in a fictive world within a virtual one, or if you are still following the concepts of the world you are in. This could easily be compared to madness...same way genius could be at the border of madness..so be careful

[Muratus del Mur]

cmon.. it was a good joke :)) why hide it :))

[Chewett]

cmon.. it was a good joke :)) why hide it :))

 

Grido lacks a sense of humour

[Change]

Ironically, I came across this topic again by doing some forum research, and I'd like to point out some potential falsehoods.
 

I really don't think Research is the worst part of MD. I don't even think it's something the majority is interested in.
It seems to me a deeper (not better, I'm not judging here) layer in MD.
I think it's more likely for new people to be attracted by creatures, fighting, spells and such... While research is something that comes at later stages and grows together with confidence / experience of this realm.

This may be true, however I think that more people are interested in research than you think. Personally, the only reason why I came to MD, and the only reason why I've stuck around, is the 'magic' of MD--the research.

 

Yet I was not into research again really for over 1000 days. Why was this so? Because whenever I had discussed my thoughts with others in game a year or two ago, they said, 'Perhaps, but I can't tell you anything. It's a spoiler.' and I remember some claiming that Mur wanted people to figure out stuff on their own.

 

So, I got discouraged after being told this a lot. Personally, MD is not the only research that I've delved into before. I used to be into reading some metaphysical texts, and discussing various paradigms with people in chats. There, there were no 'spoilers'. People still hoarded knowledge, yes, but they were willing to give hints, clues. If you had an idea about something, they didn't shout, 'Spoiler!' rather, they hinted at new directions for me to explore.

 

Now, as I'm older, and trying to get into research again, I'm finding that this is now the case in MD for me--it wasn't before. Now, when I give ideas about something, people give little hints--directions to go on, while before I was just met with silence. There are still groups of people that I talk to who all know the same thing--and I have no idea how to know that thing now. They don't seem willing to say anything about it due to it being 'deep' or something. But I'm still given hints for some things.

 

If I wasn't so stubborn, I would have abandoned MD long ago. Yet I wasn't so stubborn enough to keep researching MD when I felt I already had a good grasp of things, with no one to say if I was right or wrong according to them. Thus, I went on a haitus, occasionally discussing things like heat while 'knowing' that no one would tell me much of anything beyond what I already knew. Perhaps I could have taken some of the tiny tiny bits of opinion I was given as a Fusioneer (when I was talking about heat) and ran with it, but I still felt and recalled that I'd likely be ignored, or told nothing.

 

Perhaps this was a filter, and after wasting 1000 days without any research progress, I've 'passed' one of them, as now I'm starting to think again. Time has given me some fresh perspectives on things. But if I wasn't met with such resistance as a newbie, perhaps I would have kept researching then, and already be full of my own perspectives on 'deep' research that I could share with others.

 

MD doesn't seem to want people to research though. Rather, if they're not cut out for it, they're encouraged to do other things instead. Or perhaps that was years ago, and it is different now.

 

Like dst said, some people seem to want to research secretly just to be able to say, 'I have secret research, and 'everyone' knows it, but you do not, and I won't tell you if you're right or not.' I do not. I wish to share and discuss ideas. But I don't want to talk to a wall that tells me nothing. If more newbies were met with less walls (and maybe this is how it is now), then more newbies would be into the 'magic' of magicduel.

Edited January 22, 2015 by Change

[DARK DEMON]

Ironically, I came across this topic again by doing some forum research, and I'd like to point out some potential falsehoods.
 

This may be true, however I think that more people are interested in research than you think. Personally, the only reason why I came to MD, and the only reason why I've stuck around, is the 'magic' of MD--the research.

 

Yet I was not into research again really for over 1000 days. Why was this so? Because whenever I had discussed my thoughts with others in game a year or two ago, they said, 'Perhaps, but I can't tell you anything. It's a spoiler.' and I remember some claiming that Mur wanted people to figure out stuff on their own.

 

So, I got discouraged after being told this a lot. Personally, MD is not the only research that I've delved into before. I used to be into reading some metaphysical texts, and discussing various paradigms with people in chats. There, there were no 'spoilers'. People still hoarded knowledge, yes, but they were willing to give hints, clues. If you had an idea about something, they didn't shout, 'Spoiler!' rather, they hinted at new directions for me to explore.

 

Now, as I'm older, and trying to get into research again, I'm finding that this is now the case in MD for me--it wasn't before. Now, when I give ideas about something, people give little hints--directions to go on, while before I was just met with silence. There are still groups of people that I talk to who all know the same thing--and I have no idea how to know that thing now. They don't seem willing to say anything about it due to it being 'deep' or something. But I'm still given hints for some things.

 

If I wasn't so stubborn, I would have abandoned MD long ago. Yet I wasn't so stubborn enough to keep researching MD when I felt I already had a good grasp of things, with no one to say if I was right or wrong according to them. Thus, I went on a haitus, occasionally discussing things like heat while 'knowing' that no one would tell me much of anything beyond what I already knew. Perhaps I could have taken some of the tiny tiny bits of opinion I was given as a Fusioneer (when I was talking about heat) and ran with it, but I still felt and recalled that I'd likely be ignored, or told nothing.

 

Perhaps this was a filter, and after wasting 1000 days without any research progress, I've 'passed' one of them, as now I'm starting to think again. Time has given me some fresh perspectives on things. But if I wasn't met with such resistance as a newbie, perhaps I would have kept researching then, and already be full of my own perspectives on 'deep' research that I could share with others.

 

MD doesn't seem to want people to research though. Rather, if they're not cut out for it, they're encouraged to do other things instead. Or perhaps that was years ago, and it is different now.

 

Like dst said, some people seem to want to research secretly just to be able to say, 'I have secret research, and 'everyone' knows it, but you do not, and I won't tell you if you're right or not.' I do not. I wish to share and discuss ideas. But I don't want to talk to a wall that tells me nothing. If more newbies were met with less walls (and maybe this is how it is now), then more newbies would be into the 'magic' of magicduel.

 

I have told you this before in chat many times and will repeat.

 

Nobody will show all their research to you if you don't show interest in that particular subject. Research is not done for the sake of researching, it is done because you actually feel really attached to that subject, to the extent that during such a research one tends to forget about time and other precious things which we are otherwise usually so worried about. (speaking only of "genuine" research here).

 

Asking questions about something is not research, it is learning. Yes, the two words "research" and "learning" overlap each other, but they are not the same.

 

Take an example: if lashtal discovers something extremely amazing about shades, does a Lorerootian have a right to demand to know? Sure, if they are friends, they can share, but it is still lashtal's choice. Now think about a NML dude who spent quite a while observing shades, revealing promising conclusions and his own theories/ideas. I think lash would be much more inclined to researching together with this NML guy than the Lorerootian who just asks/demands answers for the sake of knowing and satisfying himself, and not contributing.

 

(the above is just an example, totally random, not intended to be directed at anyone, sorry for taking lashtal's name, I hope he doesn't mind)

 

 

The following is just my opinion.

 

In your case, Change, honestly from what I have observed since a long time and talked to you many times about, is that you are focused more on the people and yourself, rather than the research subject itself. You want to please people and please yourself, not contribute to the research. That's not how it is and is probably the reason you often feel frustrated.

 

Currently your issue is: you expect full clear answers but get subtle hints or "spoiler!" comments only, hence you are not satisfied. Don't expect, instead focus on reaching that position where people come to you with questions about the research and expect you to be the one knowing answers. Prove yourself worthy of the knowledge. There's a reason we "do research" and not "speak/talk/ask/say research".

Edited January 23, 2015 by DARK DEMON