Respect

[Muratus del Mur]

Respect is an invisible factor that is highly important in your evolution in MD community.

 

Respect is earned not asked for or given as a gift...but you can fight to keep it.

There is no written rule to influence your evolution in md based on how you show your respect to older players, especially to those that dedicate countless hours of their lives to make things more enjoyable to all of you, however, it is obvious that if you fail to respect such people, things won't go to far or too good for you. I am talking here about many people, people that actively help extending MD, or do quests and events or earned their position if MD society over the years.

 

(eg:Recently someone was rejected from md for lack of respect, while others constantly fail to achieve things they might deserve simply because they don't realize the importance of respect and gratitude towards people that are far ahead of them.)

 

I am making this topic to raise some alarms about some things.

 

Some of you are stupid enough to think that if they avoid curse words and find subtle ways to mock or annoy someone, "it is fine". Please remember where you are. Here in MD the majority of people present _survived_ to be where they are. They are in general highly intelligent and/or dedicated. It is very likely that your attempts to offend someone in a "sneaky" way will cause more retaliation on the long run than a plain honest offense. IF YOU TRY TO OFFEND OTHERS THINKING NOBODY CAN SAY ANYTHING AGAINST SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU USED SMART WORDING, YOU INSULT THEIR INTELLIGENCE (me included).

 

You should respect other people in here regardless if you hate them or fight them. Try to understand this very well.

 

Since some of you are quite young and in RL they have probably little reasons to learn respect for other reasons except fear, i will enumerate a few other reasons that should be seen as reasons to respect someone. By respecting someone i mean you should be aware and appreciate several things, a few very important that some miss are:

 

- their contribution to make MD more enjoyable, even if not announcing such things

- the time they dedicate to actively participate in all the things/events/roles that keep md alive

- their active days compared to yours (older players are here for more time and they survived longer than you)

- them avoiding using their earned abilities to make your life miserable

 

MD is in full process of changing. With the new A25 tools many things will need to be run in fast-forward mode to compensate the lack of people. I will actively start to dismiss and avoid to include in this change people that give me a headache, fight eachother or cause other more valuable people to enjoy md less. You have plenty of time till then to adjust your behaviour and learn that you should respect other people regardless if you disagree or fight them or whatever.

 

Authority is directly related to respect. People given full or partial authority over a more or less bigger or smaller part of md, earned their position, and if you fail to respect them (again, regardless if you agree to them or not), you are basically telling me, and them, you can't integrate in this community.

 

I am shocked to see that some of you take so many things for granted and forget you are here on a private territory. For example, you are able to enjoy a nice quest, because someone put a lot of passion and effort in doing it nicely. You noticed the sponsorship goes to the winners not to the quest creator. You are able to play md because some are dedicating hours of their lives to do it, not for a salary, without any obligations, purely out of passion.

 

Offences, REGARDLES HOW SUBTLE, have no place here. There are countless other ways to manifest your antipathy towards others, other than disrespecting them. The lack of respect leads to lack of passion for making md better and more enjoyable, therefore, i consider it a threat to md evolution, and those that do it are the source of this threat, therefore, expandable.

 

Many years ago in md history i don't recall this to be a problem as it is now. Today, older players try not to react to such cases because THEY respect you those that don't respect them, but slowly everyone, including myself, realize that action needs to be take in order to impose respect and authority. It is risky to make it as a written rule, because it can be interpreted, but as i said, this factor will be taken into account when someone above you will decide if you should stagnate where you are or given some help (roles within the community, sponsorship to your quests, opportunity to make yourself more known, etc)

 

Things i personally consider a lack of respect:

- talking to someone in charge (with development, with an event, with a quest, with any form of leadership, etc) as if they are obligated to do things they do for fun or for you

- wasting someones time intentionately or as a joke

- spreading false rumors about someone behind their back

- using knowledge about some character personal RL as argument against them (whats out there is separated from what is in here)

- (please add your own things you consider disrespectful in a reply)

 

I myself need to adjust my behaviour too, because a person that wants to be respected should also respect others...and as you know i am very arrogant sometimes, but i am working on it :p

 

 

That being said, be advised that my patience and tolerance to annoyingly rude people is getting lower and even if i won't take direct actions against them imediately, they will slowly be marginalized by the community and eventually kicked out if they continue to show they don't have a clue what respect means.

 

[Chewett]

As an additional note to this:

 

 

 

- using knowledge about some character personal RL as argument against them (whats out there is separated from what is in here)

 

Many of you know I value my privacy, MD has NEVER cared about who you personally and we have have punished people for using IRL information against others. This isnt just a matter of respect, we have rules for this. If you share someone elses private details, and they are unhappy you have done so, you will get punished.

 

Be careful with what you share. If it was an accident then we will be more lenient, but in many cases we cannot tell if you are lying or not, and it will go down as a black mark on your record.

 

Some of you will remember in the RPC day we had something like the personal logs now, which let you make comments about players. Its still there, and we still use it from time to time, you just cant see it.

 

We dont like doing this heavy handed stuff, but sometimes shaking people and reminding them that there are PEOPLE behind these characters, is important.

[Aethon]

I'm very much under the belief that the following are also ways undermine the respect for a person:

• Saying "(s)he would say", "(s)he would feel", "(s)he would...", "(s)he wouldn't..." - Anything that is speaking for someone when they have not directly asked you to.You're disrespecting someone's trust/friendship/right to their own opinion (not to mention possibly spreading false ideas.)

 

• Stating what someone does or doesn't know, as if it were a fact - Truth is, 90% of the time you don't know what someone does or doesn't know, so stating they don't know something can quite often be disrespecting their intelligence. If you're unsure, ask. Don't say "You don't..." without clear evidence.

Edited May 7, 2015 by Aethon

[Aeoshattr]

 

I'm very much under the belief that the following are also ways undermine the respect for a person:

• Saying "(s)he would say", "(s)he would feel", "(s)he would...", "(s)he wouldn't..." - Anything that is speaking for someone when they have not directly asked you to.You're disrespecting someone's trust/friendship/right to their own opinion (not to mention possibly spreading false ideas.)

This I disagree with (and I believe I actually had a bit of an outburst at poor Grido about it...)

 

I think one should be able to say "I think person X would think/feel/believe this". The only circumstances under which I agree with this being wrong is if the statement is some form of calumny or atrociously rude/defaming affirmation.

 

If I say "I believe person X would dislike what person Y (general you) just did." then it's fine. Whether person X would actually "dislike" what person Y (general you) said is up to them and up to you to determine.

If I say "I believe person X thinks you are the most worthless piece of scum on the face of the Earth." then yes, that should not be allowed - whether person X is of that opinion or not.

 

I.E. strong statements like 

 

• Saying "(s)he would say", "(s)he would feel", "(s)he would...", "(s)he wouldn't..." - Anything that is speaking for someone when they have not directly asked you to.You're disrespecting someone's trust/friendship/right to their own opinion (not to mention possibly spreading false ideas.)

are potentially dangerous and harmful with no basis. I can say that a specific person would think or believe something as long as I am within margins of decency and not offending either of the involved parts. I don't see any harm in anyone saying "I think player X feels/does/wants Y". If you want to determine whether I am speaking the truth or not, you can do that yourself. The only circumstance in which I 100% agree with there being severe punishment is calumny/defaming.

[Chewett]

This I disagree with (and I believe I actually had a bit of an outburst at poor Grido about it...)

 

I think one should be able to say "I think person X would think/feel/believe this". The only circumstances under which I agree with this being wrong is if the statement is some form of calumny or atrociously rude/defaming affirmation.

 

If I say "I believe person X would dislike what person Y (general you) just did." then it's fine. Whether person X would actually "dislike" what person Y (general you) said is up to them and up to you to determine.

If I say "I believe person X thinks you are the most worthless piece of scum on the face of the Earth." then yes, that should not be allowed - whether person X is of that opinion or not.

 

I have had people using my name, to try and "protect" themselves and threaten other players by telling people "Dont mess up by quest, Chewett wont like it if you do that". That person got right and truely shouted down when someone pinged me about it. Do not use someone in authority to try and "protect you" by name dropping.

 

If you are telling someone that "Chewett wont like this" and it comes off as a threat, then there will be issues. Dont speak for others if you are not sure. Especially not those in authority.

[Curiose]

I'm going to use a scenario that I ran into regarding personal information.

I once found some information about a fellow MD'er on a social media site. I knew this person was very particular about their personal information. I didn't choose to add them, or message them, but I did tell them eventually.

Point is, if you find someone's information, don't take liberties with it. Tell them, privately that you stumbled upon it, as they may not know. I have personally had information that I did not voluntarily put out there (I'm looking at you, Rophs), found and acted upon without my approval.

While someone may have some mMD'ers on a social media site, that doesn't make it OK to impose there also. Some of us have things that we rreally don't want the whole of MD society to get their hands on.


Edit: also, don't bloody ask around for someone's information, either! That's creepy and an invasion of privacy!

Edited May 7, 2015 by Curiose

[No one]

I like the idea, but the idea will again be outside of its target's "sight".

 

 

Let me rephrase:

Quote

Respect is an invisible factor that is highly important in your evolution in MD community.

 

Respect is earned not asked for or given as a gift...but you can fight to keep it.

There is no written rule to influence your evolution in md based on how you show your respect

This part is perfect. (I, at least, agree with it)

 

But the rest ... isn't.

Muratus del Mur, on 07 May 2015 - 06:08 AM, said:

Respect is an invisible factor that is highly important in your evolution in MD community.

 

Respect is earned not asked for or given as a gift...but you can fight to keep it.

There is no written rule to influence your evolution in md based on how you show your respect to older players, especially to those that dedicate countless hours of their lives to make things more enjoyable to all of you, however, it is obvious that if you fail to respect such people, things won't go to far or too good for you. I am talking here about many people, people that actively help extending MD, or do quests and events or earned their position if MD society over the years.

This is strange from you, as you've always agreed / grown the kind of ppl that "bring new ideas" to MD even if the rest of comunity (including those older players you mentioned) don't agree.

Oh, is this a threat :"things won't go to far or too good for you" ?

 

(eg:Recently someone was rejected from md for lack of respect, while others constantly fail to achieve things they might deserve simply because they don't realize the importance of respect and gratitude towards people that are far ahead of them.)

Don't feel bad ppl. Many more have been excluded from MD, one way or another. But I guess that this "one" bothered Mur.

 

I am making this topic to raise some alarms about some things. And to reaffirm ONE's position because those that should be targeted would not understand it anyway.

 

Some of you are stupid enough to think that if they avoid curse words and find subtle ways to mock or annoy someone, "it is fine". Please remember where you are. Here in MD the majority of people present _survived_ to be where they are. They are in general highly intelligent and/or dedicated. It is very likely that your attempts to offend someone in a "sneaky" way will cause more retaliation on the long run than a plain honest offense. IF YOU TRY TO OFFEND OTHERS THINKING NOBODY CAN SAY ANYTHING AGAINST SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU USED SMART WORDING, YOU INSULT THEIR INTELLIGENCE (me included).

 

Nobody is stupid to use "subtle ways to mock or annoy someone". Someone is stupid if he doesn't get them. (reacting is something different). Writing them require some sort of intelligence, especially when they are creative , not something copied from others on this forum.

Also, stupid is that stupid is promoted. Let me explain:

Stupid 1: trying explain how one is wrong and trying to explain stuff (along with entire community) in different ways and that dude still fails to get it

Stupid 2: I tell finally tell him the blunt truth : you are an idiot . <--- Yeah, I got tired of ppl protecting the "idiot" while themselves could not do/say anything else

Stupid 3: ppl got shocked because they've finally read the truth

Stupid 4: :) you (mur) actually promoted their ideas <---- this actually bothered me (at least) more

 

 

 

You should respect other people in here regardless if you hate them or fight them. Try to understand this very well.

I agree. But do note that respect grows better with ppl respecting each other.

 

Since some of you are quite young and in RL they have probably little reasons to learn respect for other reasons except fear, i will enumerate a few other reasons that should be seen as reasons to respect someone. By respecting someone i mean you should be aware and appreciate several things, a few very important that some miss are:

 

- their contribution to make MD more enjoyable, even if not announcing such things

- the time they dedicate to actively participate in all the things/events/roles that keep md alive

- their active days compared to yours (older players are here for more time and they survived longer than you)

- them avoiding using their earned abilities to make your life miserable

You should rephrase like: you should respect the smart & creative ppl, that spend their time so that you can have fun.

Because, damn sure, those that cheat, lie, copy and are heavily offensive when contradicted on fair bases / for valid reasons  don't get respected.

 

MD is in full process of changing. With the new A25 tools many things will need to be run in fast-forward mode to compensate the lack of people. I will actively start to dismiss and avoid to include in this change people that give me a headache, fight eachother or cause other more valuable people to enjoy md less. You have plenty of time till then to adjust your behaviour and learn that you should respect other people regardless if you disagree or fight them or whatever.

I read like : be good, kiss and play nice and maybe you'll get a new toy.

 

 

 

Authority is directly related to respect. People given full or partial authority over a more or less bigger or smaller part of md, earned their position, and if you fail to respect them (again, regardless if you agree to them or not), you are basically telling me, and them, you can't integrate in this community.

Authority is a different kind of respect, one related to ruling and fear. Authority kind of respect does not imply agreeing nor being polite.

Leadership is again a different kind of respect, one related to adhesion and understanding and ...

 

I am shocked to see that some of you take so many things for granted and forget you are here on a private territory. For example, you are able to enjoy a nice quest, because someone put a lot of passion and effort in doing it nicely. You noticed the sponsorship goes to the winners not to the quest creator. You are able to play md because some are dedicating hours of their lives to do it, not for a salary, without any obligations, purely out of passion.

 

Offences, REGARDLES HOW SUBTLE, have no place here. There are countless other ways to manifest your antipathy towards others, other than disrespecting them. The lack of respect leads to lack of passion for making md better and more enjoyable, therefore, i consider it a threat to md evolution, and those that do it are the source of this threat, therefore, expandable.

Let me put this from a certain point, no disrespect, just how I see it sometimes: Mur does not respect the players and thus "leads to lack of passion for making md better and more enjoyable", and even if I (maybe some others) continue to respect Mur as HE IS "md's evolution", he then tracks players out as threat  and/or consider them expandable.

The wording can be improved a bit, but those smart enough should get it.

 

Many years ago in md history i don't recall this to be a problem as it is now. Today, older players try not to react to such cases because THEY respect you those that don't respect them, but slowly everyone, including myself, realize that action needs to be take in order to impose respect and authority. It is risky to make it as a written rule, because it can be interpreted, but as i said, this factor will be taken into account when someone above you will decide if you should stagnate where you are or given some help (roles within the community, sponsorship to your quests, opportunity to make yourself more known, etc)

 

Things i personally consider a lack of respect:

- talking to someone in charge (with development, with an event, with a quest, with any form of leadership, etc) as if they are obligated to do things they do for fun or for you

- wasting someones time intentionately or as a joke

- spreading false rumors about someone behind their back

- using knowledge about some character personal RL as argument against them (whats out there is separated from what is in here)

- (please add your own things you consider disrespectful in a reply)

- trashing someone just because you are authority

 

I myself need to adjust my behaviour too, because a person that wants to be respected should also respect others...and as you know i am very arrogant sometimes, but i am working on it :P

I (at least) keep waiting.

 

That being said, be advised that my patience and tolerance to annoyingly rude people is getting lower and even if i won't take direct actions against them imediately, they will slowly be marginalized by the community and eventually kicked out if they continue to show they don't have a clue what respect means.

And this could not be closed without the normal threat, would it?

[Curiose]

I guess if given some context, No One, at least for the thing of disrespecting those who work hard on MD, what mur says is fairly reasonable, I think.

For example, the way DD treats chewett is abhorrent. Obviously disrespecting him and his work.

But what I don't understand, I suppose, is that he's constantly rewarded for bad behavior....

[Nimrodel]

Though i dont mean to degrade chewett, but i would say surely dd must have disliked some part of chewie's behaviour to react that way? Have you heard dd's side of the story curi? or did you take it for granted that he's an ass and thereby he's subjecting chewett to horrendous treatment? Respect goes both ways. If i feel someone's talking crap about me or insulting me, i wouldnt hesitate to give them royally for it. Dont really care who it is or what i'd have to endure for it.

[Aethon]

I guess if given some context, No One, at least for the thing of disrespecting those who work hard on MD, what mur says is fairly reasonable, I think.

For example, the way DD treats chewett is abhorrent. Obviously disrespecting him and his work.

But what I don't understand, I suppose, is that he's constantly rewarded for bad behavior....

 

I think this could also be used as an example of disrespect. Because as Nimrodel rightly said:

 

Have you heard dd's side of the story curi? or did you take it for granted that he's an ass and thereby he's subjecting chewett to horrendous treatment? Respect goes both ways. 

 

Now, I have no idea what the problems between the two are, but to openly bring that particular quarrel (one of particular controversy) into this topic, when you could have given unnamed examples of disrespect and not try to publicly shame someone, seems slightly disrespectful as well; I'd even say to both parties as neither of them may want accusations flung about in regards to their own, personal, disagreements.

 

Perhaps instead of trying to "name and shame" in this topic we could refrain from pointing fingers and instead a) allow those with grievances speak for themselves and b) keep examples unnamed? Unless we're meant to throw names under the wheels here? In which case there should be a list started, as to not be seen as "picking" on one person? :)

 

Just my opinions though. :)

Edited May 8, 2015 by Aethon

[Aeoshattr]

Curi, I'm genuinely sorry, but I can't simply ignore your posts as I believe they are potentially dangerous and harmful and I would not want the ideas to catch on. Take that however you will.

I will argue below:

 

 

I'm going to use a scenario that I ran into regarding personal information.

 

This is a completely different issue to "putting words in someone's mouth" (more or less). Personal information is under strict rules within MD, as far as I am aware.

I once found some information about a fellow MD'er on a social media site. I knew this person was very particular about their personal information. I didn't choose to add them, or message them, but I did tell them eventually.

 

You did the right thing, to tell them. However, I would argue that if said information is put up on their social media, it is available for everyone to see (as you said you didn't add them? So you were not friends on that social media?) and therefore it is the person's fault for making it public in the first place. You can't put something on facebook and say "That's private" if you don't MAKE it private. Don't put up stuff you don't want people to know on social media, people! Seriously.

Point is, if you find someone's information, don't take liberties with it. Tell them, privately that you stumbled upon it, as they may not know. I have personally had information that I did not voluntarily put out there (I'm looking at you, Rophs), found and acted upon without my approval

 

This I agree with 100%. If someone finds out personal information about you (that you didn't just post on twitter) and takes "liberties" with it, then it's a SERIOUS issue and again, as far as I am aware, is dealt with very seriously by the MD staff.

While someone may have some mMD'ers on a social media site, that doesn't make it OK to impose there also. Some of us have things that we rreally don't want the whole of MD society to get their hands on.

 

Same as above. I agree, but you need to take care of your own privacy too, not expect people to take care of your privacy for you. Tell people that you add on your social media websites that you don't want them to share your profile, that you don't want them to share information from your page, etc etc. You need to protect yourself too!

Edit: also, don't bloody ask around for someone's information, either! That's creepy and an invasion of privacy!

 

I hope I'm understanding this right.

Asking one person for their OWN contact details = OK! :D

Asking other people for another person's contact details, without said person's permission = creepy. 

I wouldn't call it "invasion of privacy", but still morally dubious. Again, make sure you protect your own privacy too.

[Curiose]

Nimrodel, multiple people have tried to assist (myself included) dd in a way that was respectable, and still got (excuse my language) shat in in return. So, the behavior in itself is not too far out of the realm of possibility. I've had my dealings with chew when I wasn't so peachy keen, and in my experience, Chew keeps fairly even.

Aeo, that posting was in regards to something someone else stated. On phone otherwise I'd quote. I'll elaborate later.

I was actually messing around on Google plus and my Google contacts or other email contacts were on there. Someone was a friend of someone I had found in my e mail contacts, and that is how I found them. The name was the same that they typically use, however... They had a picture of their self on there. Because it was Google plus, it seemed like they had that information available for networking. Not so someone could find it from MD.

Well, here's the thing. I have a Facebook and I don't share my real name often. In the past have tried to rremove as much personal, searchable information as I could. Yet, I was still found on fb. If someone goes around deliberately searching for information, however harmless that may be, it's still not right. Sure, it's out there... But why search for it? It's creepy.

OK iI'll bite. I model. I share that with hundreds of people on a deviant art page, and I am fully aware of the consequences of having it out there. But what I am not going to accept is someone trying to use those pictures of myself to try and shame me, black mail me, or pass them around for their own amusement.

It was the latter that I meant. People going out of their way to find info.

[Nimrodel]

So because your experience with dd was bad and awesome with chew gave you the right to judge dd without talking to him? Lol. I'm loving your posts curi. Totally in favour of the whole respect thingy.

[Curiose]

More like: Multiple experiences with multiple people were terrible. 

I'm not saying that Chewett is some sort of perfect mortal, he is human. But that I don't typically see him going out of his way to harass someone or to be overtly obsessed over someone. 

 

So, take it as you will. 

[Nimrodel]

Rich coming from you considering your performances in the past. Before pointing a finger at dd you should probably take into account the kind of behaviour you've shown towards the people in md during those rage quit tantrums that you threw. I rest my case.

[apophys]

Could we not flame each other in a thread dedicated to respect?  :huh:

[Curiose]

Never said I was perfect, nor have I ever said I didn't do any wrong.
What I am saying, is that maliciously attacking someone is not an excuse nor reason.

It was an example of current times. So again, take it as you will. You're only further driving the topic off course.

[Azthor]

Nimrodel, multiple people have tried to assist (myself included) dd in a way that was respectable, and still got (excuse my language) shat in in return. So, the behavior in itself is not too far out of the realm of possibility.

 

To be fair, that was not an experience shared by all of the involved.

[Curiose]

Hence, multiple.

Multiple does not equate to everyone. Figured that was abundantly clear.

[Azthor]

Now, I would not write a post merely to censor your choice of words. That was hardly my intention, read it this way:

 

To be fair (to DD), (I must clarify) that was not an experience shared by all of the involved (lest someone get the wrong impression).

[No one]

Now, I would not write a post merely to censor your choice of words. That was hardly my intention, read it this way:

 

To be fair (to DD), (I must clarify) that was not an experience shared by all of the involved (lest someone get the wrong impression).

Indeed it is not what everybody shared or are thinking.

In time I came to think that he had me feel sorry for myself, for losing my time on him. And I definitely feel the same thing whenever I have to read his ... post or others' discussing(protecting) about him. Anyway, that is my fault and that's my own fault.

 

------------------------

Now, why tf is this topic kept intact with this kind of oftopic spam poop ?

[Curiose]

I did not take what you stated as an attempt to censor me, at all, either. 
 
I think I make a fair statement in that no one's interactions can truly dictate the integrity of a person-- does not matter if someone has 99 good interactions with someone. That person will still have 1 who has had a negative impact put upon them. Sometimes people don't seem to see the forest from the trees, in this case.

 Edit: by no-one, I didn't mean the person. I meant a generalized "no one". Apologies if any confusion came about.

Edited May 16, 2015 by Curiose

[Chewett]

Firstly Aeo, please dont reply how you did, it makes it really confusing to try and work out whats being said.

You did the right thing, to tell them. However, I would argue that if said information is put up on their social media, it is available for everyone to see (as you said you didn't add them? So you were not friends on that social media?) and therefore it is the person's fault for making it public in the first place. You can't put something on facebook and say "That's private" if you don't MAKE it private. Don't put up stuff you don't want people to know on social media, people! Seriously.

The information, was actually my personal information. Google decided it would publish a lot of my details onto their google plus service without my knowledge or permission.

I did not actively put any of my details there (it even put my phone number there) but as they were associated with my account google decided it would publish them all.

The details are on my account as I use that for a number of things.

So, I would argue it was not my fault at all, I am not technically illiterate.