Guardian of Tools Should Grabban based on depletion?

[DarkRaptor]

Can someone please point me where should i find all the restrictions on the shared tools so i stop being grab banned?
I've looked at Ann. 4059, Ann. 3966, Ann. 3964 and forum topic http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/17290-guardian-of-tools/

And i can't seem to understand why should a Guardian of Tools ban me based on "for depleting water inside Marind Bell"
Can anybody help me? Please?

Thank you,
darkraptor

[Mallos]

darkraptor :item-grabban

"for depleting water inside Marind Bell"  Perhaps nadrolski could explain why he's banning you from taking the tools there, presumably the water buckets?

[Aeoshattr]

Darkraptor wouldn't be able to harvest water with Marind Bell buckets anyway (citizenship locked)... I think an explanation is required? 

[DarkRaptor]

18 minutes ago, Aeoshattr said:

Darkraptor wouldn't be able to harvest water with Marind Bell buckets anyway (citizenship locked)... I think an explanation is required? 

The bucket i grabbed in MB capitol is available to all with gardenning values above 8.

I was able to use the bucket without any restriction.

[Aeoshattr]

11 minutes ago, DarkRaptor said:

The bucket i grabbed in MB capitol is available to all with gardenning values above 8.

I was able to use the bucket without any restriction.

My bad. Apparently I have never been fast enough to see that bucket in the shared item list.

Then I suppose we need to refer to the original topic where Mur says 
"The Guardian will have powers to ban players from grabing shared items if they are found to have more than one of a type or if they are hoarding them on alts, or abusing them in any way (abuse ways will be clearly specified)"

I don't know whether depletion falls under abuse or not, I don't know if these abuse ways were clearly specified to the guardians of tools themselves or if they were publicly released somewhere (and I missed them). So perhaps we need confirmation first on this aspect?

[Ungod]

Mur said 

Quote

Thst is why this is a ROLE and not a technical limitation, it needs a brain to judge what is ok and what is not.

I guess we learn as we go what is ok and what is not. Or not?

[Miq]

Depletion is not abuse of the tools (maybe of the resources but that is not Tool Guards issue)

[DarkRaptor]

I guess this confirms what Miq says..

Depletion seens not to be a abuse ... or is it under certain conditions?

[lashtal]

It seems a clarification from nadrolski is needed here (given he's the one banning you).

[Rophs]

8 hours ago, Miq said:

Depletion is not abuse of the tools (maybe of the resources but that is not Tool Guards issue)

Interaction with resources in the environment only occurs via tools. If there were ways to abuse those resources without tools then there might be a more blatant issue here but as I see it Nadrolski is allowed to define what is seen as an abuse of the tools.

There could be some argument relying upon

(abuse ways will be clearly specified)

but no rulemaker can think of every rule that they will need and often will need to retroactively create rules. In this case Nadrolski is at fault for not letting Darkraptor know that it's against the rules of the Wind's Santuary Tools to deplete water inside MB as a warning before delivering the punishment. When Darkraptor abused the resources (and tools by extension) his actions were not clearly defined as abuse, but if he were to continue abusing the tools after that warning Nadrolski would be perfectly within his power to toolstomp Darkraptor.

[klatdees]

I've been told that with depletion, water's a special case since the rain can refill it...but that was by a monarch (lintara), not by the tool guardian (nad <3)

[Mallos]

"Tool Guardians on duty!
10 new roles have been assigned. The Guardians of Tools will guard the shared item dispatchers and make sure shared tools won't be abused or sabotaged. They can forcefully take back the tools you got from their guarded dispatcher and lock you down for a long time, if they think you abuse them in any way. Further instructions or details about how they should perform their role can be specified by the land leaders / Kings if needed. They should guard the tools from abuse, not from people they personally dislike or from non citizens. Tools of a land can be grabbed by non citizens too, unless they are limited by land loyalty. That said, I am hoping that the Guardians won't do abuses of their own."

Perhaps if nadrolski or other tool guardians would like to disclose what an abuse of the tools means to them it would be better for situations like this.

[Sunfire]

i think it is quite clear depletion is not an abuse, it has been a part of the resources and it will remain so, otherwise they would've made something to prevent it some years ago. If you do some foumsearching you'll see that it was made with the possibility to deplete...

Nadrolski banning Darkraptor for this depletion in Marind Bell is not a good reason, seeing he depleted inside Loreroot himself. Or would this give a Loreroot toolguard the authority to grabban Nadrolski? No, the toolguards were assigned to locations which only have certain tools so depleting here or there should be treated evenly in all lands by all players (meaning if Darkraptor was at fault then Nad should grabban himself for his depletion, see the ridiculousness of the problem...)

i saw Darkraptor being grabbanned before by Nad for grabbing both a MB and a MDA bucket, now this is a more interesting questio if this is hoarding of tools since they are tools from a different location and fall under 2 toolguards yet they fulfill the same goal so should they be seen as the same or not.?

[klatdees]

Rereading mallos's cited announcement (and see also the tool guardian tag description)

 

I think depletion is quite clearly "sabotaging the use of the tools" for the straightforward reason:  if there are few/no resources, what is the point of grabbing the tool?  

 

Besides which, if we know the Monarchs can specify tool use limitations, and they have specified depletion limits, how else could you categorize those limits except as limits on tool use?

[Aeoshattr]

8 hours ago, klatdees said:

Rereading mallos's cited announcement (and see also the tool guardian tag description)

 

I think depletion is quite clearly "sabotaging the use of the tools" for the straightforward reason:  if there are few/no resources, what is the point of grabbing the tool?  

 

Besides which, if we know the Monarchs can specify tool use limitations, and they have specified depletion limits, how else could you categorize those limits except as limits on tool use?

 

On 7/22/2016 at 0:25 PM, DarkRaptor said:

I guess this confirms what Miq says..

Depletion seens not to be a abuse ... or is it under certain conditions?

And yet... nadrolski himself depletes. That seems to be lacking some objectivity. I do realise the above screenshot is in Loreroot, yet it is not as if nadrolski doesn't deplete water in Marind Bell too.

For clarity: my issue is not with depletion itself (while I do dislike it), it's with the apparent double standard which is in my opinion unacceptable for such positions. It could be argued for or against, but I would honestly like to see nad say something on the topic.

[DarkRaptor]

There is one more thing that i fail to understand when i look at the logs...

Is it OK to a Guardian of Tools to assist a fellow citizen to hold 3 water buckets? While at the same time he grab-bans other players?

Note: I Personaly does not consider Hoarding the fact that Ungod to have multiple buckets BECAUSE there is plenty available at MB for the grab.

[nadrolski]

Come on, darkraptor.

Weren't you one of those who fought against depletion-lovers before, yes?

Just because Eon, No one, dst are not around, means you can fill their shoes?

[klatdees]

5 hours ago, Aeoshattr said:

 

And yet... nadrolski himself depletes. That seems to be lacking some objectivity. I do realise the above screenshot is in Loreroot, yet it is not as if nadrolski doesn't deplete water in Marind Bell too.

For clarity: my issue is not with depletion itself (while I do dislike it), it's with the apparent double standard which is in my opinion unacceptable for such positions. It could be argued for or against, but I would honestly like to see nad say something on the topic.

To dark raptor: that seems like clear abuse (from the announcement, don't have multiple of one tool) and gets into the "who watches the watchers" question...

 

I think technically I can grab ban Ungod or nad and they won't be able to take MB buckets (though the ones they have won't be returned) but that might be overstepping my role.

I should know this, but...Who is the king of MB?  They would decide if the depletion in MB is an issue and if so when...maybe they could even be "unfair"  (Lintara has explicitly told me that water depletion in her land isn't an issue, though.)

[DarkRaptor]

39 minutes ago, nadrolski said:

Come on, darkraptor.

Weren't you one of those who fought against depletion-lovers before, yes?

Just because Eon, No one, dst are not around, means you can fill their shoes?

yes, and i'm still against depletion. As many know i've presented many ideias ( tool degradation etc..) that would "limit" the current ease of depletion.

As everyone know for the last 2 years or so if anyone was interested in collecting water it have to deplete it. Since Nad also have became a very active depleter.

Still, i Can't Understand why should a Tool Legislator grab-ban me for having ONE Bucket in my inventory.

[dst]

3 hours ago, DarkRaptor said:

yes, and i'm still against depletion. As many know i've presented many ideias ( tool degradation etc..) that would "limit" the current ease of depletion.

As everyone know for the last 2 years or so if anyone was interested in collecting water it have to deplete it. Since Nad also have became a very active depleter.

Still, i Can't Understand why should a Tool Legislator grab-ban me for having ONE Bucket in my inventory.

Nad said it himself:me,No one and Eon are not around at the moment so he needs to flex his muscles and found you as a scape goat.

Imo nadrski is just abusing his power because there are no rules against it and because he can. 

Congrats darkraptor, you won the jackpot.

@nadrolski:no worries, we'll be back once the summer is over so enjoy your abuses while you can.

[klatdees]

16 minutes ago, dst said:

Nad said it himself:me,No one and Eon are not around at the moment so he needs to flex his muscles and found you as a scape goat.

Imo nadrski is just abusing his power because there are no rules against it and because he can. 

Congrats darkraptor, you won the jackpot.

@nadrolski:no worries, we'll be back once the summer is over so enjoy your abuses while you can.

Honestly it does get kinda boring in MD sometimes, ya gotta do SOMETHING...I've considered doing some testing with one of the other guardians but the mechanics are too straightforward (though it did take a few tests to understand them)...nowadays I keep track of pretty much every single person who takes something from the passage of war in my k doc (notebook still messed up probably) just because I can xD

 

that and I post here xD

So don't make it out as some huge unacceptable vice to be bored (and as I've said, land loyalty could well be called "land ennui"...it makes you more uncomfortable in a scene, more likely to escape...ergo MD "rewards" boredom, or at least expects us to utilize it to break out of our shells). that said, it's not like boredom justifies abuse

 

Edited July 25, 2016 by klatdees
Concept clarification

[DarkRaptor]

Just go grab-ban again... by the same player i guess.. now i wonder under what reason??

JUST LOVE THIS ABUSE!!!

[DarkRaptor]

don't came again with depletion rules or whatever!!

[Azull]

I was waiting to see if this would happen again before commenting. But, based on information so far, I agree with dst.

Quote

Imo nadrski is just abusing his power because there are no rules against it and because he can.

@ darkraptor. If you want to discuss a possible solution (though not a nice one) find me in game.

[Aethon]

Isn't it intriguing how certain item abuses are overlooked, especially when linked to an actual public role...

Quote

"They should guard the tools from abuse, not from people they personally dislike or from non citizens."

Anni. 4059

Anyway, as there has been no abuse, on Darkraptor's part, (and Nad has had a chance to state one if their had been, but decided "LOL" was more appropriate...) it stands to reason that the only reason he continues to ban Darkraptor is for either a) a personal amusement, b) personal dislike or c) for not being a citizen. Either way, it's an abuse.

Also, Nadrolski's response, and lack of, to this topic just further shows why he is unable to take the role seriously. He simply aims to take any role he may to fulfil his own agenda; King, Dowsers Leader and now Guardian. This is an example of a character untrustworthy to such roles, one that merely takes from, without giving back to, the titles.

 

Edit: I would have reffered to

Quote

Further instructions or details about how they should perform their role can be specified by the land leaders / Kings if needed.

But as the current King of MB seems to be MIA, it's irrelevant.

 

Edited July 30, 2016 by Aethon