Value of Wishpoint Discussion

[Ivorak]

On 5/26/2022 at 8:30 AM, Fyrd Argentus said:

I could hardly deny him a wp since he met the rules - THAT would be favoritism.  If you don't like the attitude his RPing portrays that's between you and him.

The wishpoints page isn't very clear and is kinda contradictory, but it does state that "Wishpoints are reviewd from time to time and if you received wishpoints without a good reason they will be canceled. Wishpoints can not be canceled or taken back by the rpc that gave them."

Personally not in favor of a quest solution involving minimal effort being rewarded a wishpoint just because it was the first to meet the requirements of the quest. There's room for interpretation here, but as this devalues wishpoints this is not just between MaGoHi and I.

Would be useful to have a bit more clarity on what is not a good reason for receiving a wishpoint.

 

Edit: Sorry, Fyrd, didn't mean to derail a thread for a ongoing quest. Probably should have started a new topic here.

Edited May 28, 2022 by Ivorak

[Fyrd Argentus]

No problem.  This seems to have struck a nerve.  Nothing like an enthusiastic discussion to liven things up...

[MaGoHi]

okok, first of all i only wanted to annoy fyrd with the entry, but then he gave me conditions that were somewhat easy to achieve, so i did that, then i was expecting him to still not give me the WP, like i would not have given me the WP xD, but anyways it was fun seeing all the reactions here xD

[Chewett]

A few people contacted me concerned that it was given "for no effort/work" or for "trolling". I can see where their concern is and I am a little unclear as to why a WP was given. I do not think Fyrd is trying to encourage people to troll questmakers (or at least I hope he isn't?)

I wouldn't have given a WP, I was surprised Fyrd did, but assuming its his personal stash of Wishpoints it is up to him to judge it.

 

Obviously if later its decided that it was a poor choice and should be removed, then obviously that action will follow.

[Chewett]

Hearing people's opinions is something I am interested in. As Fyrd said a discussion would be good for everyone.

[MaGoHi]

to be fair, never before have i put that much effort into an art quest in MD

[Fyrd Argentus]

9 hours ago, Ivorak said:

rewarded a wishpoint just because it was the first to meet the requirements of the quest.

Say what?

In my interactions with Mur, two principles have been made clear.  There should be a range of wishpoints available from easy to insanely difficult.  And secondly, every offer must be open to everyone equally.

For me to deny MaGoHi a wp for finding a clever way to solve the challenge would violate the second principle.

Bear in mind, this challenge sat on the forum for over a year without anyone even trying it (to my knowledge).  Frankly, as a practitioner of origami, I saw it as a very simple challenge, designed to get people doing stuff with MD creatures and interacting with others -- in this MaGoHi succeeded.  All MaGoHi's shortcut did was substitute a creative insight for knowledge of traditional origami techniques.

[Ledah]

On a personal note, the only reason I... participated was to check off an item on my bucket list - can you get a WP for a ball of rubbish? The answer, is yes!

With regards to there being a range of easy to insanely difficult, I'd say that is fair enough but is of course subjective. I'd ask whether Mur said this exact example was appropriate, particularly if this is going to be a hill to die on - but I don't care plus I have said the forbidden words now!

All in all was good fun though, I enjoyed the quest.

[Chewett]

Someone asked me my view, I don’t have a massive view one way or another. But I can see why some people are grouchy. It was Fyrds decision to make.

[Fyrd Argentus]

1 hour ago, Ledah said:

whether Mur said this exact example was appropriate

Of course not.  But he did say the insanely difficult should be most rare.

[Muratus del Mur]

Ok ... this deserves a detailed answer, to clear things, for everyone, i hope.

This reply is equally valuable to those receiving wps, but also to those giving wps... see it as something to learn from 

 

First impression when i heard this, was... "close the gates, hide the buttons, Fyrd has gone crazy"...  but obviously its not so.

But..there is zero indication of recklessness in his decision, he was entitled to give wp for whatever he considered fit (in the hope he will follow my guidelines regarding this), and it was nothing suspicious or hidden in his actions. In this case, we need to think things more and at least try to understand the reasons.

When someone gets the ability to give wishpoints..it is EARNED. This also means that I trust that person's judgement to use wishpoints to shape activity in md, but also shape the value system overall.

 

What is the ultimate purpose of wishpoints in md? It is to unlock the most powerful things. They are the most potent attractors, but also a way of confirming ones involvement and overall achievement in MD. Wishpoints and medals are probably the highest form of acknowledgement, its MD's way of telling "you are awesome".

Because of this, they need to be treated wisely. It is not good and absolutely not healthy to the community to keep wps just something given for impossibly difficult tasks, but also we must not give them for trivial zero difficulty activities. It takes time to understand where wp place is in MD's balance, but an easy way to see it is this "Wishpoints need to be special". 

 

Let me present you this situation from a different perspective too... lets put things in a balance:

 

The good

- This wp managed to put things in motion, get people active on a dead topic, and revive a one year old quest. Of course a wp would have revived anything an anyone, anytime, its their side effect, but doing this without falling in the pitfalls of favoritism or risking to be lame, its difficult. This particular use was bordering the symbolic, not the abuse, at least in my view.  

- I am happy that he remembered what i said about balancing easy wp vs difficult wp. There is a tendency to make a mix and keep things 'moderate', or even to forget to give an easy wp once a year or so, instead doing just difficult wp quests. I think about 25% of wps should be easy to get, but still SPECIAL, not trivial. To balance those wp's i give a a lifetime of hard work, just one symbolic wp.... its a balance

 

The bad:

- Giving a wp for crumbling a piece of paper, is certainly NOT what i had in mind when thinking of this wp system. Old players would turn in their abandoned accounts if hearing a wp was given for this. I think Fyrd failed at presenting his decision the way it deserved to be presented, but then again, maybe he considered he is not supposed to offer such explaining.

- The really bad is that this filled up the need for super easy wp for the entire year, but offered a wp to someone that could have earned a difficult one instead, missing to give an easy wp to someone with less potential, to solidify the community better.

 

and the ugly:

- It looks to me that the winner of the wp did not participate to actually win it, so the wp reward was kind of a stretch to conclude the quest. I am not sure if this is good or bad yet, but it is ugly. I can't think of an other way to do this to avoid it being ugly, so i might have done the same.

- we, those that can reward wp or code a wp reward in a25, must find it easier to decide when to leave a wp quest without a wp reward. Having no one left to reward does not mean that person should get it all, at least not when it comes to wp...other rewards maybe.

 

 

Wishpoints should be given for a wide a range of opportunities. Its important to avoid giving wp just for the most elaborate and difficult to solve puzzles, same as it is important not to give wp just for too trivial things such as this one. There is room for these extremes however.

 

I think Fyrd managed to play with fire successfully and give a wp that was so absurdly trivial that it was special. By doing this he completed the balance of "easy to get" vs "impossible to get" wishpoints. I am sure he will not follow this by an other easy wp, and that giving a wp for the 'crumbled piece of paper' was a premeditated and well planned act.

That being said, this wp will not be confiscated (in case anyone wished that).  One thing i would like to remark about this, is that next time one gives an easy wp to someone, should make it less possible to achieve it fast, and less out of desperate need of finding a winner no matter what.

 

 

 

[Muratus del Mur]

Forgot one interestint fact, ..no other c4umbled piece of paper can ever get a wp :))) this was it, other interesing ways of receiving easy wp must be invented next

[MaGoHi]

7 minutes ago, Muratus del Mur said:

crumbling a piece of paper

 

8 minutes ago, Muratus del Mur said:

crumbled piece of paper

it was an oregano, mur, an oregano!

[Muratus del Mur]

Oregano, as in the spice, maybe, a seed or something, but origami certainly not

[Ivorak]

Thanks, @Fyrd Argentus and @Muratus del Mur. Your explanations help clear up some things for me. Appreciate the responses.

Oh, and what I said about "being the first to meet the requirements of the quest" doesn't apply in this particular case (I missed the dates on the original post, oops). But in general I think we should be careful about wishpoint quests being a race, particularly the easier ones. For example, it would be disappointing for a player A to miss out on quest reward because a quest was posted in the middle of the night for player A and player B happened to be in a different timezone and was able to complete the quest first by cutting corners.

[MaGoHi]

2 hours ago, Muratus del Mur said:

Oregano, as in the spice, maybe, a seed or something, but origami certainly not

thats what i expected fyrd to say xD

[Chewett]

3 minutes ago, MaGoHi said:

thats what i expected fyrd to say xD

Damn Mur messed out and forgot to log into his Fyrd account

[Muratus del Mur]

Is me being you still a theory? If so, this entire story sounds very trippy :)))