Artisan's Treasury

[Seigheart]

So, I was bored earlier today. I was looking through all the links at the top of the MagicDuel page, and noticed the Treasury link. And within that link, there was the Artisan's Treasury.

Currently it has 130 unspent credits.

I would like to propose that the treasury be handed over to BFH, so that it could be used as a source of rewards for the Magicduel Facebook page, instead of having to give away our own creatures, and resources.

Seig

[Curiose]

Why BFH? WHY him specifically?

Certainly there are OTHER starving alliances and organizations within the game which could benefit from that better than he could. I mean, hell, if he really wanted to, he could commission the Advertisers to advertise for people for say, a gold coin for a month of work. That could easily give them a form of payment, or otherwise something for their treasury.

Edit:
To make myself clear, I am against taking ANYTHING from an old alliance for the gains of a new one. I was making my previous paragraph to defend my questioning of BFH's Guild.

Edited February 7, 2011 by Curiose

[Udgard]

IIRC, people were allowed to donate credits to those treasuries. Since the artisans are gone now, I propose that those part be given back to people who donated them, since the ones they originally want to donate for no longer exists. It might be quite some work though, so I guess I'm not actually hoping it would happen, just stating what I think is the right thing to do.

Barring that, I'd agree that rather than letting it rot there, we should give the treasury somewhere. I'd agree to give it to the advertisers (though it doesn't have to specifically be used just for the FB page), as I cannot think of any other guild that actually [i]needs [/i]it. The other guilds (Crafters, Lair Keepers and Wood Cutters) do not need it, and giving it to alliances is a big no-no. Giving it to sponsor some community run events (MDNP -if they return, though I think they have their own treasury as well-, story night, the market initiative) could be considered as well though.

[quote]Why BFH? WHY him specifically?

Certainly there are OTHER starving alliances and organizations within the game which could benefit from that better than he could. I mean, hell, if he really wanted to, he could commission the Advertisers to advertise for people for say, a gold coin for a month of work. That could easily give them a form of payment, or otherwise something for their treasury.

Edit:
To make myself clear, I am against taking ANYTHING from an old alliance for the gains of a new one. I was making my previous paragraph to defend my questioning of BFH's Guild.[/quote]
The gold coin a month would need to come out of someone's pocket, so unless BFH has a treasury to draw from, it's not exactly "easy form of payment".

It's not just an old alliance (guild, to be exact), but also a no longer existant one. I personally see no problem to do something about the idle resources (or well, we can give the credits to the ex-member of the artisans prior to its disbanding for the services they did I guess).

[Curiose]

It's simply that, as I see it, they were given those credits to be used for the hard work they did for the people. To me, I kind of see that as stealing, even if it is disbanded. But despite that fact, if it does happen to get put back together, then what do the newly rebuilt members of the guild have left to it?

If anything, I do agree that it should be distributed back to those who have rightfully earned it, and were once a part of that guild, instead of just handing it to some random alliance such as BFH's.

[Grido]

The money was donated to the artisans, so I feel that it would be wrong to, in essence, choose for them where they might have wanted the money to go otherwise.

Now I suggest no solution to this, as someone already said, ideally the money should be given back to those that donated, we can see a partial list, so I'm pretty sure there's a full list available, but not entirely sure how...possible(?) that is to happen, or the likelihood, for whatever reason.

I cannot recall what the artisan treasury was for either, because I'm pretty sure (and please correct me if I'm wrong) they got given credits (doubt rl money, but possible) that were not a part of that treasury for the work that they did.

Like I say, I offer no solution here, and as I very much doubt the guild being reformed, as players can upload their own avatars now, the need is reduced for it, and as the guild isn't likely to reform, there isn't much need of a treasury for it, so something should happen with it, the question is just, what?


With regard to BFH's funding problem, he could request an advertiser's treasury?

[BFH]

I don't have problems with funds or rewards. If I wish to create a contest for the purpose of advertising I can ask for sponsors, donate some of my own creatures, coins, etc.., or ask the Council / Mur to help me.

If anyone wish to help MD with advertising. Please buy Credits. It's the best way to contribute, since outside the game we do payed advertising.

BFH

[Amoran Kalamanira Kol]

[quote name='Grido' timestamp='1297099342' post='78575']
The money was donated to the artisans, so I feel that it would be wrong to, in essence, choose for them where they might have wanted the money to go otherwise.

Now I suggest no solution to this, as someone already said, ideally the money should be given back to those that donated, we can see a partial list, so I'm pretty sure there's a full list available, but not entirely sure how...possible(?) that is to happen, or the likelihood, for whatever reason.

I cannot recall what the artisan treasury was for either, because I'm pretty sure (and please correct me if I'm wrong) they got given credits (doubt rl money, but possible) that were not a part of that treasury for the work that they did.

Like I say, I offer no solution here, and as I very much doubt the guild being reformed, as players can upload their own avatars now, the need is reduced for it, and as the guild isn't likely to reform, there isn't much need of a treasury for it, so something should happen with it, the question is just, what?


With regard to BFH's funding problem, he could request an advertiser's treasury?
[/quote]

Firstly, I am highly against the credits being used for some other organization in the game. They were intended to be used as payment to the artisans who drew avatars for the game, and they were supposed to be used to 'give back' what the artisans 'gave' in avatars.

One of the artisans (GlorDamar) was paid in real money for his work, but others had to rely on the credits that were given in the game as payment for their work and the treasury was supposed to be used to give a bonus to the artisans who did not have the blessing of receiving real money for their art.

They should be given back to the people who donated them or they should not be used at all.

[Chewett]

I agree entirely with Amoran and the others suggesting that idea.

They were donated to fund the artisians, Thusly if they are not to be used to fund them, they should probably go back to the owners and then they can decide what to do with them. I would assume that most would like to donate them to others and such, But it should be their choice since they gave them for a purpose.

[The Phoenix]

Why don't we just let that treasury as a treasure? It's the Artisan's treasury, and the Artisan can't choose, they're no longer exist.. Just let that treasure stay there..

[Kamisha]

I don't think that solves the problem. The record does show who and how much was donated so the credits should be returned to the owners. For example I can see nava donated 23 credits.

[Poppi Chullo]

Solving what? there's no any problem to solve for. It's more to a suggestions i think, there is some option above and the most fit so far (as Amoran said) is give 'em back to the donators or let the artisans keep 'em as their treasury.

[Chewett]

[quote name='Poppitz Resurrection' timestamp='1297306097' post='78717']
Solving what? there's no any problem to solve for. It's more to a suggestions i think, there is some option above and the most fit so far (as Amoran said) is give 'em back to the donators or let the artisans keep 'em as their treasury.
[/quote]

but since there are no artisians then it is to be left there for nothing, hence the whole topic.

[Firsanthalas]

I am going to play devil's advocate here because I think people are responding emotionally rather than rationally here.

Firstly, I do agree that donations should be returned.
However, I guess that some people have left and its also possible that Mur gave some of those funds as a donation. I believe this has been done with a few funds in MD (I could be wrong).
So, in all probability, even if you return the donations, there will be some money left in the kitty. I see no reason to leave it sit there idle, when it could be put to good use elsewhere.
I'm not saying it should all go to the advertisers, but to simply leave it in situ seems a bit like cutting your nose to spite your face.

I would say that anyone that hasn't logged in for 12 months (or some timeframe people find acceptable) be considered gone and any funds they donated be left for use elsewhere. Anyone else that is still considered to be around should have the funds returned.

[Jubaris]

[quote name='Firsanthalas' timestamp='1297334206' post='78725']
I am going to play devil's advocate here because I think people are responding emotionally rather than rationally here.

Firstly, I do agree that donations should be returned.
However, I guess that some people have left and its also possible that Mur gave some of those funds as a donation. I believe this has been done with a few funds in MD (I could be wrong).
So, in all probability, even if you return the donations, there will be some money left in the kitty. I see no reason to leave it sit there idle, when it could be put to good use elsewhere.
I'm not saying it should all go to the advertisers, but to simply leave it in situ seems a bit like cutting your nose to spite your face.

I would say that anyone that hasn't logged in for 12 months (or some timeframe people find acceptable) be considered gone and any funds they donated be left for use elsewhere. Anyone else that is still considered to be around should have the funds returned.
[/quote]

Mur can send thousands of credits to anyone he wishes out of nowhere, so taking the credits from artisans "just so they don't get unused" is a bit silly. It creates some kind of inflation additionally as well.

I agree with the proposition that they either get back to the donators or that they stay where they are (if the artists were payed earlier anyway)

[Firsanthalas]

And leaving credits sit doing nothing isn't silly?
And how exactly is it inflation? Leaving credits sitting doing nothing and giving extra ones out is inflationary. Using what is already there as opposed to not just dishing out more isn't.

Actually, this all seems to be a ridiculous argument. Give the funds back and then either redistribute the remainder or bin it. What is the point in leaving it sit in a defunct fund? Its just going to result in this debate cropping up again in the future. My personal opinion is that leaving it or binning it is an awful waste.

[Poppi Chullo]

Leave the credits sit doing nothing isn't silly, taking or using other people credits without permission is.
Artisans guild no longer exist, but some of the former member still here, they're speak here without using their old Artisans attribute, not for the credits or any benefit, but for respecting they who already spent their money.

If you not agree to give it back to the donators or to leave it alone, then just let Mur make it dissapear with all the artisans treasury name and access also.

*I'm very grateful to be me, which not measure something by its price. And Fenrir why dont you say something? So you just opened this and ran away?

[Pipstickz]

[quote name='Firsanthalas' timestamp='1297338414' post='78727']
And leaving credits sit doing nothing isn't silly?
And how exactly is it inflation? Leaving credits sitting doing nothing and giving extra ones out is inflationary. Using what is already there as opposed to not just dishing out more isn't.

Actually, this all seems to be a ridiculous argument. Give the funds back and then either redistribute the remainder or bin it. What is the point in leaving it sit in a defunct fund? Its just going to result in this debate cropping up again in the future. My personal opinion is that leaving it or binning it is an awful waste.
[/quote]
Firs, what if the day after the credits are distributed, somebody comes back and asks for their credits? There should be no remainder. Everybody gets back what they put in, since that is the only beneficially fair situation. But of course, that's all assuming Mur or the Council or whoever distributes ANYTHING.

PS: The only reason you think it's ridiculous is because your opinion is the only one you see clearly enough to recognize. Stop kidding yourself.

[apophys]

Pip, anyone who logs back in after a 12-month absence or so does not deserve anything back anyway.

[Firsanthalas]

Correct me if I am wrong here.
But, weren't there accounts deleted in the past? Haven't some people said they wanted their accounts deleted for various reasons?
And if Mur did put credits in, then that also leaves a surplus.
So, yeah Pip, there could in fact be a remainder. I also said it was my opinion, which I am entitled to.
If you are going to attempt to make out that I am somehow wrong in my logic, then at least get your facts straight. As usual you didn't actually listen to what I said, you just proceeded to have a pop at me. So, for clarity sake. I said, that if there were credits leftover AFTER credits were returned, they should go elsewhere.
So I have not disagreed with returning funds. I have suggested that maybe not all of it should be returned to potentially dead accounts. I've also raised the issue of leftover funds. I disagreed with the idea of simply leaving funds in a defunct treasury.
And I stand by my comment on inactive accounts.
While, yes there are indeed people that return after a long absence, I firmly believe that for each of these, there are probably at least 10 more that will never come back.
And using the funds there for another purpose helps MD as a whole, it doesn't take away from it.

I've raised something that was not considered by some people, including yourself Pip. People are free to ignore it, but don't simply dismiss it because it came from me.
I also have to wonder if there would have been so much negativity to the original topic post if it had actually come from someone else?


[quote]Pipstickz Oh Tarq, you're so fair. You both stop and spread prejudice.
Feb 09 2011 01:59 AM[/quote]

Irony perhaps?

[Yrthilian]

wow all this fighting and arguing over funds that most have no right to.

So there are funds left sitting around. So far i dont see anyone that donated to the fund asking for the
credits back. This fund has been around for some time and the artisans just stopped being active.

So at this point an argument over the fund starts how predictable and boring. Common people. If it is such an
issue why has no one sent a mail to the MD staff or Mur asking about it. Or even reminding them it is still
there and make some suggestions. Would have been much better than to start a topic over it.

I am sure there are many things in the realm that need this sort of fix or redistribution. Hell why not just
say all the fund now belong to MD and the MD staff or Mur can only decide what to do with it if they choose to do
anything with it.

It is simple really. just ask Mur or the Staff to look into it and leave it at that.

[Jubaris]

[quote name='Yrthilian' timestamp='1297421426' post='78751']

I am sure there are many things in the realm that need this sort of fix or redistribution. Hell why not just
say all the fund now belong to MD and the MD staff or Mur can only decide what to do with it if they choose to do
anything with it.

[/quote]

belong to MD staff? what are you talking about?
You people realize that this isn't real money, it is just a bunch of ones and zeroes? That Mur can "invest" millions of credits in projects he wants to? (as well as the MD staff itself, as far as I know)

Firsanthalas, as far as I see, you're answering to Pip is only being motivated by personal issues you have with him.

I think it isn't correct for you to judge someone is inactive and then take whatever you want from him (even those avatar captures were controversial, but at least, Mur refunded every taken avatar with credits), if any credits are going back to the donators, then EVERY CENT of those credits should get back to it's previous owners, that's the ONLY right thing to do about refunding the credits.
Other than that, if the first is impossible, then the credits should be used what they were brought to do - stimulate/reward artists. (or stand still until it is possible to use them again)

There are some ethical norms that people should understand. If nobody complained about their "wasted" donations, it doesn't mean you can do whatever you want with them.

There's also a chance that someone invested RL money to donate some credits, it would be VERY incorrect to those people to take their donations and put them in another budget (in case, someone moves the whole fund)

Edited February 11, 2011 by Rhaegar Targaryen

[Firsanthalas]

Rhaegar, he got a response in line with the way he treated me. He made it personal in the first place. He usually does.

And again, ignoring any notion of not returning credits to people based on inactivity, that still does not deal with accounts that have possibly been deleted or funds not donated by individual players.
Neither Pip nor yourself have addressed this issue, you are focusing on one detail that you have an issue with and seeking to make issue with me.

Is not returning funds to old accounts right? I don't know. Its a suggestion and opinion, nothing more. I can see how that could be an issue for some people. I am not that blinkered, despite what Pip says. Me bringing it up as an alternative or suggestion does not mean I can't see any other option.
But, again, IF there is money left, AFTER money has been returned (even if it is to all donators that still exist, even if inactive for any length of time), is it not better to use it for another purpose rather than essentially pour it down the drain?
Bearing in mind that someone could have invested REAL money, as you say, and then had their account deleted for whatever reason. That's the proceeds of REAL money, according to you, that can't be returned to the owner. The owner clearly felt it worthwhile to donate to the game, so why not use it for the game, even though it isn't the exact, specific fund the person put it into?
I don't believe that this disrespects or diminishes the Artisans guild in any way. They have ceased to exist. And we are talking about funds that can't be returned. Am I really being unreasonable?

If I donated money to a cause and the group responsible ceased to exist, I for one would hope that the money I donated would be used to help that cause if possible, even if not the exact use I donated it for, rather than just sit doing nothing forever. Perhaps I am an exception then?

[Yrthilian]

[quote name='Rhaegar Targaryen' timestamp='1297424488' post='78752']
belong to MD staff? what are you talking about?
[/quote]

I suggest you red that again I didn't say belong to MD staff
read it word for word please and dont accuse me of saying things i did not say.

[Jubaris]

if there are any credits donated by a person whose account got deleted, then we should judge upon that leftovers, and not upon the whole fond (I agree that there's a problem if such case exists, but you presented it at first like it affects the whole fond, unless I received a wrong picture). I don't think such case exists since deleted accounts are very rare in MD. Banned accounts can get unbanned over time (which happens frequently), so I wouldn't keep the credits from banned accounts, if I were calling the shots.

If such leftovers exist, then we shall act upon them (discuss possibilities if contact with the donator is impossible). Making arguments over theoretically possible EXTREME cases, is contra-productive I believe.

No harm done will be if the credits are returned to their rightful owners - if they want them to be kept in the circle of MD's official projects, they will be free to redistribute the credits in other treasuries (LHO one for example).

[Firsanthalas]

For the laugh, I'll throw a spanner into things.
The fund was donated. As such, anyone that gave the money did just that. They gave it away, they no longer own it. Technically the fund belongs to MD and not any individuals.
As such, it is neither right to return it, nor wrong to have it moved elsewhere or discarded.
Therefore, it might be seen as correct by some to return it to the original owners, but it isn't required or wrong not to do so.
Wonder what that means about certain arguments?

Anyway, I feel I have proved what I set out to. This whole thread is an indictment of people not actually caring WHAT people actually say, more so a case of WHO.