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Libya is at war.


TTLexceeded

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Libya is at war for many days now. A war against NATO and a civil war. This topic though is not to take sides or to talk about who is right and who is wrong.
This is to take some time to think what is happening in that country and spare a moment of uncomfortable silence.
For all the Libyan people who suffer and will suffer for decates to come.


(The word "against" NATO is to indicate the official Libyan side, not to take sides. Sorry if it got interpreted this way, it was not my intention)

Edited by TTLexceeded
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Hmm I would keep to TTL's original entry:
'This topic though is not to take sides or to about who is right and who is wrong.'
I strongly suspect that within an international player community it may easily get really ugly and we may learn how little is history and just how much are myths that differ all around the globe...

(tiny print: ... and yet implications that sovereign Lybia is at war with NATO or calling for support for Gaddafi makes me feel.... uneasy...)

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  • Root Admin

This topic should, and will not have people taking sides. It is a wide issue and i dont like the forum to be bogged down in politics.

Whatever will happen, I wish for the best outcome to this, and my thoughts go out to the Libyans in this difficult time.

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[color="#8B0000"][font="Palatino Linotype"]Sadly the average citizen cannot control what its leaders do. We may or may not approve of their actions, but we should be careful not to pass judgment over an entire country because of the actions of a few.

My thoughts and prayers go to the citizens that are caught in the middle of all this. [/font][/color]

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[color="#2e8b57"][i]It is heart breaking whats going on there - and while TTL said we should not take sides, it is hard not to when human rights are being grossly violated. Ive been keeping tabs on whats been going in Libya for a while now. Its a wierded out situation - basically there are two teams: Gadaffi loyalists and those opposing Gaddaffi. Gaddaffi loyalists do not represent the majority view of Libya, and it is the Gaddaffi loyalists (and Gaddaffi himself) that are are at war with NATO, and since Gaddaffi is the "official voice" of Libya then yes Libya is at war with NATO. The majority of the country however want him dethroned.


hmm..... Im curious, is stating a fact taking sides? :unsure:

as an end note, I really hope that the US, UK an FRANCE do not take it as their god-given mission to dethrone Gaddaffi... that is something that the Libyan people need to do on their own and its already looking a bit dodgy because Libya is known for its oil wells.

( I really hope I havent stepped on too many toes..... )
[/i][/color]

Edited by Sharazhad
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Whilst i personally think that the ICC must send him to prison for ever and then a bit longer, it's also fact that he managed to keep the rivaling tribes in Lybia in a more or less peaceful balance, even when it happened by means of corruption and autocracy.

Democracy is probably not the best idea for all nations of the world. Free elections and politics approved of by the majority lead to Cosa Nostra take over in Sicily and Italy in the late 19th and early 20th century, in a very similar setting of forces. I doubt not that the fall of Muammar al-Gadaffi will lead to either a massive civil war, or a de facto aristocracy of the leader of the richer tribes. Including oppression of the less fortunate, and probably a lot more violent than what was needed up to now.

Edited by Burns
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Now, since you started stating facts...

Keep in mind that during Gadafi (no matter how eccentric he is), Libya prospered. Libya had oil, Libya had jobs, Libya had money.
It was a general opinion here that Libya was a good place to live (and all the Serbs who were working there and got evacuated back to Serbia during this war, they were confused - like how did all this happen?)

Suddenly, Chaos erupted in whole Arabic world (all the unrest). Makes me wonder who profits from chaos there? :P

Gadafi is not at war with NATO. NATO is at war with Gadafi. NATO will eventually kill more people than the supposed "reports" of Gadafi's "crimes" (manipulation of the media is well known to you-know-who) with their bombing - it's not the first time.


edit: Dst made a big point too, if there weren't for oil, you think that anybody would cared to waste their resources attacking Libya?
People, don't suck everything the media tells you

Edited by Rhaegar Targaryen
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[quote name='Sharazhad' timestamp='1300868811' post='81137']

I really hope that the US, UK an FRANCE do not take it as their god-given mission to dethrone Gaddaffi... that is something that the Libyan people need to do on their own and its already looking a bit dodgy because Libya is known for its oil wells.

[/i][/color]
[/quote]


Hmmm...well...Libya has oil so I am pretty sure Libya "NEEDS" the big powers help :P. If Egypt would have had oil as well...Egypt would have needed help as well :D

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[quote]Suddenly, Chaos erupted in whole Arabic world (all the unrest). Makes me wonder who profits from chaos there? :P[/quote]

I think you are insinuating the western powers like America, England, France?
Oddly enough, it's the other Arab countires that benefit from it most.
The conflict in Libya has resulted in an increase in oil prices. That definately doesn't suit the countries in the west that import such oil.

[quote]Keep in mind that during Gadafi (no matter how eccentric he is), Libya prospered. Libya had oil, Libya had jobs, Libya had money.[/quote]
Umm...that statement is so wrong on so many levels.
First up, the oil doesn't spring from Gadafi's arse. It's there with or without him. Libya has prospered? If you mean the people that support Gadafi have prospered then yeah. Not much use to the average person there though.

As for the oil situation and international intervention....
Well, Egyptian citizens were not being bombed by their 'own' (supposedly in the case of the Libyans I'd say) airforce.
Bahrain also has oil and as yet the Americans haven't gone in there all Team America style.

It's easy to say the situation in Libya is simply about the oil, but I don't think it is that simple, nor fair to make that assumption. It's a factor sure, but not the sole one.
Regardless, I hope that the average Libian citizen ends up in a better situation at the end of all this.

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[quote name='Rhaegar Targaryen' timestamp='1300871484' post='81140']
Now, since you started stating facts...

Keep in mind that during Gadafi (no matter how eccentric he is), Libya prospered. Libya had oil, Libya had jobs, Libya had money.
It was a general opinion here that Libya was a good place to live (and all the Serbs who were working there and got evacuated back to Serbia during this war, they were confused - like how did all this happen?)

Suddenly, Chaos erupted in whole Arabic world (all the unrest). Makes me wonder who profits from chaos there? :P

edit: Dst made a big point too, if there weren't for oil, you think that anybody would cared to waste their resources attacking Libya?
People, don't suck everything the media tells you
[/quote]
[color="#2e8b57"][i]
Yes Libya had oil and therefore oodles of money but almost cent of that money went into the Libyian Investment Authority. The name of this "investment" was the only thing that linked the country to the money which was stored in it. The LIA was the treasure storehouse of the Gadaffi family. read :- ----> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-12626320

Chaos errupted because the people are tired of their country being run by Ali-Baba and his forty theives. When Gadaffi came into power, he was young revolutionist who made many promises to the Libya and the world which he promptly failed to deliver. Ask yourself why did he not step down when the people asked for it? why did promise a blood bath instead? How long do you expect a nation to be oppressed before it screams for freedom? [/i][/color]

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  • Root Admin

This topic were opened merely to offer kind words and such to the people who are going through hard times. I dont really want arguments about the politics, because frankly its a rather large debate that people will get angry about.

If you want this topic to remain open i kindly ask you do not start talking about whether they are right or not.

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[quote name='Firsanthalas' timestamp='1300882206' post='81145']
I think you are insinuating the western powers like America, England, France?
Oddly enough, it's the other Arab countires that benefit from it most.
The conflict in Libya has resulted in an increase in oil prices. That definately doesn't suit the countries in the west that import such oil.
[/quote]

Arab countries aren't the only ones with the oil (plus, practically whole Arabic world has disorders... so, you are implying they are doing it to themselves too), plus, in some countries, you have oil, but that country doesn't own them, some Companies from other countries own them.

In any case, it wasn't Arabian alliance that invaded Libya, it is Nato.


[quote]
Umm...that statement is so wrong on so many levels.
First up, the oil doesn't spring from Gadafi's arse. It's there with or without him. Libya has prospered? If you mean the people that support Gadafi have prospered then yeah. Not much use to the average person there though.

As for the oil situation and international intervention....
Well, Egyptian citizens were not being bombed by their 'own' (supposedly in the case of the Libyans I'd say) airforce.
Bahrain also has oil and as yet the Americans haven't gone in there all Team America style.

It's easy to say the situation in Libya is simply about the oil, but I don't think it is that simple, nor fair to make that assumption. It's a factor sure, but not the sole one.
Regardless, I hope that the average Libian citizen ends up in a better situation at the end of all this.
[/quote]

My point was he used the oil, traded the resource, got some wealth, invested it in land's progress (more technology, more mechanics and such, all that = more jobs. I mean, foreign people came to work there, and it's a lot cheaper to employ domestic people considering they will pay you back with taxes as well and spending money in Libya's economy, logic works that there weren't enough Libyans eager to work, or people didn't need a job, meaning, it's cool :P)

Gadafi was thorn in the eye of America for decades now. Libya was already bombed before. Libya was already hostile, so they just used an excuse.
Bahrein, is very small country, and wasn't that aggressive in politics at all (Gadafi is known for his anti-american attitude). You can't just invade everything, you need semi-good excuses :D


[quote name='Sharazhad' timestamp='1300882700' post='81147']
[color="#2e8b57"][i]
Yes Libya had oil and therefore oodles of money but almost cent of that money went into the Libyian Investment Authority. The name of this "investment" was the only thing that linked the country to the money which was stored in it. The LIA was the treasure storehouse of the Gadaffi family. read :- ----> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-12626320

Chaos errupted because the people are tired of their country being run by Ali-Baba and his forty theives. When Gadaffi came into power, he was young revolutionist who made many promises to the Libya and the world which he promptly failed to deliver. Ask yourself why did he not step down when the people asked for it? why did promise a blood bath instead? How long do you expect a nation to be oppressed before it screams for freedom? [/i][/color]
[/quote]

a bit less of BBC, CNN and similar medias regarding politics, and you'll run into some objective articles eventually. (for example, I respect BBC a lot considering numbers of documentaries they did, so many good shows and such, but in politics, they became manipulating media)

Do you really believe that NATO will cleanse the land of Gadafi influence, they will follow the Knight's codex and teach the Libyans how to earn more money? :P
They will work to establish a puppet government, after that, they don't care.

There are always dictators all over the world, point is, while the dictator is good and loyal (like Sadam Hussein was at the start), it's cool, you support him, arm him and such, but when the dictator steps a bit from the path (like Sadam afterwards), then you nuke 'em, nuke 'em, nuke 'em.
"Democratic" principles aren't worth a damn, or the poor terrorized people


I heard about a lot of civil wars where major forces didn't intervene. I heard about lots of civil wars in Africa, where people massacred each other. If powers wanted to stop genocides, they would act everywhere, but they only choose to react on SOME of the conflicts, meaning, it has to be something that pays off the campaign (there was an economical crisis recently, so they don't have that money to throw away).




[b]EDIT[/b] been writting for some time and didn't see Chewett's post. I just made a post to represent both sides of the conflict, so people don't read only about pro-nato points. Won't do so no more

Edited by Rhaegar Targaryen
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As someone who's lived trough a NATO bombardment that was ironically called Merciful Angel and that resulted in deaths of thousands of civilians, my thoughts are with people of Libya.

And yes, I'm taking the side of civilians.


Peace.

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[quote name='dst' timestamp='1300871640' post='81141']
Hmmm...well...Libya has oil so I am pretty sure Libya "NEEDS" the big powers help :P. If Egypt would have had oil as well...Egypt would have needed help as well :D
[/quote]
While I can believe that oil is a reason the big powers actually invest their time there, you cannot compare the situation in Libya with Egypt just like that:
Casualties in Egypt are reported to be less than one thousand deaths, optimistic sources saying around three hundred. The Egyptian rebellion is widely recognised as a victory and I think it is probably the least bloody revolution ever. Deaths in Libya prior to outside actions, have been estimated between one and six thousand already. Prior to outside action, it appeared that the rebellion was loosing ground too. This is entirely depending on the numbers you believe in, but I have absolutely no reason to believe a second revolution with few deaths happens in that short a time span.

In the end I doubt it matters who is shooting or bombing, why they are doing it and where they got their weapons - there is some fuss over here because we export weapons and now people are using them to kill people which is of course unheard of! - People will die and there is no stopping that until one side gives up. We can only hope that it will be quick and that it is 'worth it' in as far as such a term is ever applicable.

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(kind of find it ironic that while reading this there is an add for a military university at the bottom) I feel for the people of Libya. and would hope that something positive can come out of all of this.

Edited by Darigan
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[color="#8B0000"][font="Palatino Linotype"]Please don't make this about the US sticking their nose where it shouldn't. Many of us are not happy with what our government is doing in the situation. Yeah I could dredge up the past issues the the bombing of PanAm flight 103, but that doesn't justify what's happening now (nor would a good number of you remember it).

This thread was started to keep the citizens in our thoughts and prayers. They're the ones that will ultimately suffer.

(PS: President Obama has even less support for his current actions with US involvement than President Bush had with Iraq. Apparently you can't be president of the US without committing a major military blunder)[/font][/color]

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There is never a reason, justification or excuse for a war.

After everything that is said and done, thousands if not millions of lives would be sacrificed, while the living would be left behind picking up the pieces.

There will be suffering during the war and after.

Whether the Libyans chose this upon themselves is not an issue here in this thread.

Feel free to say what you want to say but there will be a family getting hungry with no food in sight, a child crying over the loss of his parents, a father worrying about his son's future.

Pray for them..... and pray that you will never have to experience it yourself.

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The post was not made to make the rest of the community know how much we "care" for people. I believe that if you care you do things. You do not pray, or wish, or mourn and then comfortably sit in your chair and watch the news.

It was made to encourage people to think.
Who is benefiting?
Who is right? Who is wrong?
Why do wars happen? What can i do to stop wars?
To encourage people to get information and open up their minds and start veiwing the world as one. Like it or not Libya is part of the world. Our way of thinking and acting affects what happens there.
I would expect at least that from a community of a game where your ideas are mixxed with the ideas of the people around you and the result affect everyone.

I said its not about taking a stance or trying to find who is wrong and who is right because i dont want it to evolve into a pointless political conversation. I would want it to be nothing more and nothing less than just a small push to make us think for ourselves.
Take a minute of uncomfortable silence, and stare at the mirror. Then you will know who is wrong. We are wrong, all together. Some are to blame less, some are to blame more.

[quote]The war which is coming
Is not the first one. There were
Other wars before it.
When the last one came to an end
There were conquerors and conquered.
Among the conquered the common people
Starved. Among the conquerors
The common people starved too. [/quote]
Bertolt Brecht

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[color="#2e8b57"][i] I agree The gross human rights violations that the people within Libya are experiencing are nothing short of atrocious. Why are wars started? who knows? Greed? want of power? freedom ? Nothing can be done to stop a war short of being in a war itself. If you wish to help join an NGO or donate to one.

Below is a list of NGO's that I am aware are currently working in Libya. Im sure you can find them online and donate and/join. [/i][/color][color="#2e8b57"][i]Yes wars are ugly and horrible, and loads of innocent people die. That is a tragedy, but during a struggle (especially a struggle for freedom) lives will be lost, as cold and harsh as it sounds - it is true, My thoughts an prayers are of course with the families who have lost loved ones.[/i][/color] [color="#4169e1"][i][b]International Organization for Migration (IOM)[/b][/i][/color]

[color="#4169e1"][i]Evacuation and repatriation programs for third-country nationals.[/i][/color]

[color="#4169e1"][i][b]World Food Program (WFP)[/b][/i][/color]

[color="#4169e1"][i]Emergency food operations to respond to immediate food requirements of those who have fled Libya into Tunisia and Egypt, and to pre-position food to assist those who are most vulnerable to a deterioration of humanitarian conditions within Libya.[/i][/color]

[color="#4169e1"][i][b]International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC)
[/b][/i][/color]

[color="#4169e1"][i]Medical and surgical care, water and sanitation facilities, etc. in the region.[/i][/color]

[color="#4169e1"][i][b]United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR)[/b][/i][/color]

[color="#4169e1"][i]Management of transit centers in Tunisia; and basic services to migrants in Egypt.[/i][/color]

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  • Root Admin

Well..lets put it this way. My country (more exactly our supreme military council) decided we should stick our nose too in this war. I have no idea what makes us capable of deciding an other nations fate especially that other nato countries did not want to get involved (so its possible). I am totally against such actions, when a country attacks an other country without actually having a personal reason to do so. I find it lame and i am ashamed i have to say this about my country, but its the way i see it.

It is typically American to bomb an other country for a pretended reason and then pretend to help them, sadly i see everybody else is following the "American example" now.

if you consider my post racist or out of place you can delete it, but THIS is my opinion about the matter.

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Interesting to note that BP decided to open up drilling in Libya the *same* week as the bombs dropped. It is no coincidence, Libya is rich with oil. Without it - modern empires would crumble faster than Rome did.

[quote name='Muratus del Mur' timestamp='1300978682' post='81249']
Well..lets put it this way. My country (more exactly our supreme military council) decided we should stick our nose too in this war. I have no idea what makes us capable of deciding an other nations fate especially that other nato countries did not want to get involved (so its possible). I am totally against such actions, when a country attacks an other country without actually having a personal reason to do so. I find it lame and i am ashamed i have to say this about my country, but its the way i see it.

It is typically American to bomb an other country for a pretended reason and then pretend to help them, sadly i see everybody else is following the "American example" now.

if you consider my post racist or out of place you can delete it, but THIS is my opinion about the matter.
[/quote]

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Apparently, it's not possible to keep the topic from taking sides...
*wrote a longish post then gave up*
If you see better option to keep Gaddafi's army of mercenaries from wiping out with blood rebels that have enough of his 40-year regime that keep him and his cronies rich and powerful and Lybians poor, voice it. If you do not please stop ranting about poor civilians dying due to NATO bombing and repeat mantras about oh-so-evil Americans.

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800 seafarers are held up hostage in Somalia along with their ships
120 seafarers have been killed due to piracy.
12 Million US$ are spent in protecting Somalian waters against piracy (Indirectly u and me r paying this).
24 Million US$ are used extra by shipping companies to avoid Somalian waters (by enrouting thru Cape of good hope instead of taking Suez)
They have even started piracy training course in Somalia hehe,

Yet when Indian navy Sunk one of the pirate mother boats it was blown out of proportion and UN hammered Indian Navy and There were even protest made by the human right activities against sinking a pirate mother ship wow!!!.

Now were r these so called Human rights activities and UN just Proved itself to be a Puppet of Rich nations hehe.
Somalia is lucky country don't have any natural resources - oil hehe

Edited by Tipu
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