Pipstickz

Will you actively utilize the knowledge you have gained since then to correct any mistakes you may have made?

And do you believe you have done anything wrong in the cases of dst and Phantom Orchid?

This thread is, at this moment, shouting at Pip for having a divergent opinion time. This thread is not about my opinion, so I am putting a stop to this discussion. Grido: Do you understand what [u]I believe[/u] you to have done wrong in the cases of dst and Phantom Orchid? I request that only Grido answer this question, and only with a yes or a no.

[quote name='Metal Bunny' timestamp='1317553031' post='93092'] Didn't he already do that? Doesn't that premise include the possibility of a return to old behaviour, implying that yes, while his behaviour (as you seem to have deemed it necessary as to require 'redemption' of sorts) may change as a result of this topic, that you are kind of trapping him? [/quote] He did it, but not with the purpose of changing my opinion. If he continues to act as he has recently, then so be it, my opinion will remain unchanged, but I believe Grido has the ability to see what needs to be done. MD often leaves you directionless, with your own gut feeling as your only lead to follow. I had hoped this would be much the same, and I could see what Grido really thinks is necessary. [quote name='Metal Bunny' timestamp='1317553031' post='93092'] That's like a (now ex-) girlfriend saying to me that 'if you don't know what you did wrong, then there is no point in me telling you'.. In case you didn't get that, it means that admittance of fault is not really admittance of fault if defendant is not aware or does not acknowledge fault, especially since, looking at this poll, the defendant has a majority support... What you want is a bent knee, you're not getting it I sincerely hope you see the discrepancy in that.. [/quote] I am not asking Grido to admit to anything, and I do not want anything. Grido asked if he could change my opinion, I told him yes. He asked me how, I told him to make an honest effort. I am asking for him to do something without being told exactly what to do. If he cannot do that after surviving this long in MD, then I'm very surprised, but if he [b]decides[/b] not to, then that is his choice, and my opinion will remain as it is.

[quote name='Burns' timestamp='1317533932' post='93082'] I think there should be another bit to that idea to stop people from being citizen of all lands for a while to get bonus on all lands. Imo, the land loyalty should only decrease the AP needed for traveling if the loyalty in question is the highest of all the loyalties of that player, or in the calculation of the AP cost, loyalties to other lands get subtracted from the land loyalty that's currently used. If the loyalties of a person change, the land should notice that, and not give them bonus anymore. [/quote] This change would imply that I am not loyal to Mur and the Tribunal at the same time as being loyal to Necrovion and it's citizens, and I resent such an implication*. By duty I am of Tribunal, but by choice I am of Necrovion. *Please note, I am not speaking of an implication by Burns himself, but the change he suggests. I do not claim to know what Burns thinks of my citizenship status.

I'm not going to just tell you what to do, Grido, because I can only tell you what I would do. I want you to do what you would do.

[quote name='Grido' timestamp='1317468063' post='93041'] The question was with double meaning Pip, how might I change it? [/quote] All it requires is an honest attempt. As stated, right here [quote name='Pipstickz' timestamp='1317427462' post='93004'] and if he does make an attempt at changing my opinion, I will gladly do so if I believe his attempt is an honest one. [/quote]

Most of Necrovion's current citizens are younger players, other than yourself, and your activity is not stellar at times. At least, that is why [b]I[/b] did not approach any Necrovion people, while I was gathering members. I don't claim to speak for the Law Advisors, though.

If I ask for opinions and then leave only the option of "Yes", "No" or "Null", the only opinions I'm going to hear are "I agree with you", "I don't agree with you" and "I neither agree nor disagree with you".

One gold.

First off, Rendril is correct, this thread was not intended for discussion of punishment. Now the rest. [quote name='(Zl-eye-f)-nea' timestamp='1317378315' post='92937'] Whilst saying this isn’t a personal issue, the way the introduction to this is written does come across as very personal and quite vindictive. Not only that, but you caveat wanting discussions relating to this coming about to stay in their respective threads, thereby removing discussion of the issues here that caused you to create the poll in the first place. [/quote] In regards to the introduction: I assumed anybody who's been even glancing at the mood panel lately knows my opinion before reading this, and would take it with a grain of salt, so to speak. As for the discussions, I merely intended to keep this thread free of arguments about whether or not Grido was right or wrong in the Phantom or dst case, because while they are relevant to the topic, they invite flame wars, derailments and general unhappiness that you can go to their respective threads to receive. So no, I was not trying to say "NO TALKING", because there clearly was talking, and plenty of it, most of which seems to be constructive to me. Besides, regardless of what I say, you're free to post whatever you'd like, as you know. [quote name='Deatznce0' timestamp='1317383856' post='92955'] There is nothing I can really add to this. When a person does a single good in the community, it is usually ignored and unnoticed but when they do a single wrong, everyone turns their head to point the finger. I apologise Pippy, unfortunately, this time I cannot assist you with your position. [/quote] I am not offended, no worries. I appreciate your input, no matter what you voted. [quote name='Grido' timestamp='1317399858' post='92977'] Pip, ""As a personal note, no matter what the outcome of the poll is, my opinion will not change"" just to be clear for myself, regardless the outcome of the poll, you still think I'm in the "No" category of the poll? Is there a way for that opinion to be changed by me, or will it remain that way regardless? [/quote] I said my opinion will not be changed by the poll, but [b]you[/b] certainly can change it. ________________________________________________________________________________________________ Thank you to everybody who voted (or thought about voting, but perhaps didn't get in before now), even if your vote was Null. To me, 72 people is a huge number in MD, in a 24 hour time period, and I appreciate every individual, as well as the majority opinion. I will not seek action against Grido, nor will I endorse such action, and if he does make an attempt at changing my opinion, I will gladly do so if I believe his attempt is an honest one. I would like to apologize to SilverBlades and any such individuals that may share his extreme view on this issue or the game in general: I can tell you that a single change would most likely not affect your opinion, so: sorry if I got your hopes up. Anybody who may still have comments to share may do so, as I will only ask to have the thread closed once activity on it dies down (if I remember to <<).

Rendril: I think I get where you're coming from but it's a bit too late now to change, yeah? Passant: As I said in the initial post, if the outcome agrees with my opinion, then I will begin a discussion of punishment, and if not, I will simply give it time.

This is not a personal issue between me and Grido. I simply want the community's opinion on how he does his job.

2_-2x-1_1 Nightshade 1_4x4_2 Capitols

In light of his recent behavior and handling of certain events (discussion of which hopefully shall remain in their respective threads), several people have spoken against, and in defense of, Grido. The purpose of this poll is to see where the community, as a whole, stands on this issue. As Grido's position does not only affect LHOs, but the whole of the community, I feel it is pertinent to make the distinction in the poll question. Grido is more than [b]just[/b] LHO "Inquisitor", he is essentially a GM, an example being Kyphis' PL concern, where he went to Grido about having a PL entry deleted (Grido could not do what Kyphis asked, but I am trying to illustrate how the community sees him, not what abilities he has). As a personal note, no matter what the outcome of the poll is, my opinion will not change, but if the outcome agrees with my opinion, then I will proceed to create another thread where a discussion of what action should be taken can commence. In this poll, everybody who votes is viewed as equal, and this is how it should be, so if you have an opinion, vote for it.

[quote name='Grido' timestamp='1317297682' post='92819'] Pip, I never said LHOs were bug testers, they don't test bugs, but if they see one, they should know it's a bug, report it to someone who ~is~ a bug tester/council so that it can be tested. [/quote] And where do they receive the knowledge that bugs are bugs? Does it say anywhere that LHOs are required to have bug knowledge? And, if you expect them to have such knowledge, why do you let them in if they do not? [quote name='Grido' timestamp='1317297682' post='92819'] I think you missed the part where I said I'd punished her? The announce I posted was after the incident, just trying to put a thought of Mur, that's all. I'm also pretty sure that dst didn't use it for "fun" but in retaliation. [/quote] So it's just fine to use LHO tools for personal arguments? [quote name='Grido' timestamp='1317297682' post='92819'] I'm really not at all sure what relationship the instance has with banning someone for teleporting me to tunnel of war - it has nothing to do with anything. But for the record, no I wouldn't ban someone for that. [/quote] It is a comparison where tunnel of war and silence are lesser abilities and ban and sewing kit are used in retaliation. [quote name='Grido' timestamp='1317297682' post='92819'] I wasn't so much comparing the events of IaB and Phantom Orchid, I was stating where it was written, like you asked me to provide - An example of where Mur has stated selling them is against the rules. [/quote] So now LHOs are required, without knowing that they are, to read IABs papers? [quote name='Grido' timestamp='1317297682' post='92819'] The references you've made in your hate page against me (and this is getting very offtopic, up to another mod if they want to do anything) are mainly things you disagree with me on, not actually negative things I've done. I would like to ask what you would ask me to do (other than stepping down - I won't unless Mur/Council/LHOs think I'm doing a bad job at it) that would give you a reason to believe it's not true. [/quote] In other words, you're saying "Lalala, I will only listen to people with more power than me, lalala" Your comments here on my hate page ARE off-topic, and don't relate to what you are replying to, or the general topic at hand.

She can speak if she wishes, no matter what any of us say, BFH.

[quote name='Grido' timestamp='1317229298' post='92735'] I repeat that the role of an LHO expects that she should realise an exploit when seen. [/quote] It is [b]NOT[/b] an LHO's job to be a bug tester. _______________________________________________________________________________ [quote name='Grido' timestamp='1317229298' post='92735'] First clearing up the dst incident, the actions she undertook were within the rules of the game, yes she annoyed people, yes she used the item to silence seig (it was him, right?). She annoys a lot of people, a lot of people would probably go as far as saying they hated her. What she did whilst borderline was within the rules of the game, though she did receive a private punishment, she has since also been punished by Mur for her cumulative behaviour - I would expect this to happen again for a longer period of time if she continues to act similarly. Since the event there has even been an announcement posted; ""[color=#CCCCCC]Ann. 2020 - [2011-09-21 17:25:32 - Stage 11][/color] ...Like with any other item or ability, you are free to use it as you wish when you wish."" But I reiterate, there was a private punishment. It was not ignored. [/quote] You can quote mine announcements, so can I: [quote][color=#CCCCCC]Ann. 1648 - [2010-10-30 21:28:49 - Stage 10][/color] The abuse of a privilege will lead to it being lost. [/quote] And also, from the announcement ABOUT the sewing kit: [quote][color=#CCCCCC]Ann. 1626 - [2010-09-28 02:05:26 - Stage 10][/color] Those that will be using it are asked to remember that this is [u]intended to be used to prevent abuse[/u] and as an intermediate level of punishment before jail/ban. It should not be used for fun. [/quote] Mouth Sewing Kit is an administrative tool in the same way ban/unban spells are, simply less harsh. Would you use ban on someone because they teleported you to Tunnel of War? _______________________________________________________________________________ [quote name='Grido' timestamp='1317229298' post='92735'] The distinction between dst and Phantom Orchid is that selling bugs and exploits is one of the many unwritten rules, one of the most known ones as well. An LHO is an elevated position within the game, they are given spells, and authority to guide new players. In my opinion the position of an LHO has a trust-able image, and also a knowledgeable one - they should be aware of selling bugs and exploits being against the rules, and also how to recognise what one is. I reference [u][url="http://magicduel.com/players/I%20am%20Bored"]IaB's Profile[/url][/u] - where Mur has edited into his Game Mechanics shop that it's closed. I'm sure there's a clearer example of Mur saying it, but I can't currently find one. [/quote] The difference between IAB and Phantom Orchid is that Mur gave IAB a warning in a private manner (his papers, which IAB could alter) because it is, apparently, an unwritten rule, and IAB had the chance to comply, and he did. You, on the other hand, went all out on Phantom. An LHO is a volunteer who is meant to help younger players because they want to, not because they will receive spells and authority in return. I'm sure you'd like to correct me just like you arrogantly "corrected" Lashtal, but I'll have none of it. _______________________________________________________________________________ [quote name='Grido' timestamp='1317233033' post='92741'] I am perfectly answerable for my actions, I haven't said it for a while, but it stands as true that if anyone has issues with what I do, or how I do them you are welcome to message the council, or Mur. [/quote] As I've also stated in my hate page, I personally believe that anything to do with you should go through the community (ie. a poll) before it hits the Council, and then they can enforce our decision if you will not comply. Now I'm not the only person speaking out against the way you run your [b]administative[/b] position, and if you continue in the same fashion, the numbers will only grow. If you continue to simply say "Go see the council and if they tell me to do stop I will", it will be clear to me that you really don't care for the community, only for yourself and your power. Please, Grido, give me reason to believe that is not true. There we go, done with my edits.

[quote name='Grido' timestamp='1317162333' post='92644'] I have tonight been informed of something which saddens me. In the steps leading up to Phantom Orchid being promoted to LHO (Promoted 18-Sep-2011) she sold an exploit to a player (for a rip-off price as well) - this happened in the period of time between my enquiring opinions from current LHOs for the basis of her promotion, and the act of promoting itself. [u]The exploit/bug itself isn't overly serious, it's been known about for a while and not so much abusable[/u], the issue stands that she was at the time trying out to be an LHO, and then became one. Selling bugs or exploits, of any sort, is NOT lho behaviour. [/quote] The selling of information about a known bug that is not abusable, or abusing an administrative tool. I wonder which is worse.

[quote name='Shadowseeker' timestamp='1317191443' post='92675'] You omit the various other meanings I included when I mentioned only dst making this possible, but you did hit one. For all the opinions that are displayed here, none suggests a punishment...it would help your causes if you could at least define that. [/quote] She has, according to Grido, been punished already. All I want is proof. After I get that, I can't say, because I don't know what the punishment was. [quote name='Shadowseeker' timestamp='1317191443' post='92675'] If I were a judge and had to punish dst, it would be something more creative than jail, true. And yet, you do point out "do not do it again"- by that do you mean the silencing, or just the general troublemaking? [/quote] You brought up "don't do it again", not me. [quote name='Shadowseeker' timestamp='1317191443' post='92675'] Dst selling bugs? Would be enough to demote. etc etc etc...yet for all you list, you list small things and seem to expect big punishment. I agree small things are piling up, and yet there is the issue of her not "doing it again" with things like these, which are not acceptable. If she does repeat it, okay. If she doesn't..people, with the history between her and Seig I'm surprised it didn't happen earlier, or rather that there has not been another clash between them again over something minor. [/quote] Again, I do not expect any more punishment than what she's apparently gotten, I expect proof and at least an honest attempt at fairness from Grido.

[quote name='Shadowseeker' timestamp='1317187822' post='92669'] Pipstickz, regarding rules: There is no written rule, only something called common sense. The same reason why BFH got punished with the drachorn cave incident, when he failed to realize something was a bug, this being the same thing. I can't find it right now, but yeah. LHO's who fail to recognize a bug and sell it...what do you expect, a police officer selling drugs, won't he get demoted as well? [/quote] You mean Manda, I believe. A police officer selling drugs knows that they will be punished if caught. Can you honestly say that Phantom or anybody else could possibly know that selling information would result in their [b]very public[/b] demotion and humiliation? And can you honestly say that Grido would treat you or another ancient player in the same manner, if you were in her position? Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if Grido didn't respond to this topic at all.

[quote name='Shadowseeker' timestamp='1317188878' post='92670'] I keep wondering...please people, no matter how much you may detest people, read the announcements properly at least. "as a cummulative punishment for her way of causing scandals, not for commiting an actual crime." So leave the jail issue out, while it actually may include all this here. [/quote] So, SS, you're saying one week in jail will change dst's behavior? Because I'm sure she will be the first to call you a liar if you do. Of course, that's beside the fact, as nobody's mentioning jail other than you. [quote name='Shadowseeker' timestamp='1317188878' post='92670'] Regarding the whole issue...how is it that nobody demanded the chatlog either? [/quote] It is not my place to demand things that may not even exist. You're free to try, but I've seen plenty of evidence without a chatlog. [quote name='Shadowseeker' timestamp='1317188878' post='92670'] From my own point of view, this is another of the cases where dst causes a small borderline scandal, and all those who dislike her mob up. Jumping at the smallest fault there is. I somehow fail to see how this could happen if it was not dst...in several senses of the meaning. And: Grido refusing to state anything, might just be the refusal to state the obvious: "dst..don't do it again, or...!" I mean what do you expect people? Demotion and/or Jail because you think it is just, or actually just want it? If she continues this way, there will be heavy punishment out there...however you keep blowing every single incident out of proportions. [/quote] First of all: I don't dislike dst, in fact, I think she's an important part in the community, but that doesn't mean I consider her above punishment that others would inflict upon me in an instant. So no, this wouldn't happen if it wasn't dst, because almost anybody else would've been punished already, [b]publicly[/b], as has been proved with Phantom Orchid's demotion. Second: Grido has not responded to this case at all, except in game, to claim that he really has punished dst, while providing no evidence, because he doesn't have to. Third: If all Grido has to say is "Don't do it again", then, well, that's like telling penisfoot "Don't do it again" without changing his name. She already has done it again, and she will continue to do it again as long as there are people who annoy her, and as long as nobody does anything about it. Fourth: She's already continued this way. The only reason people such as myself are blowing the issues out of proportion is because of the frustrating inactivity of those who can actually do something about it, but refuse to, or in this case, refuse to do so in a public way. The community deserves better than that.

[quote name='BFH' timestamp='1317179115' post='92662'] The fact that YOU, non LHO, don't see our rules doesn't mean they don't exist. You don't have to see them, the rules are for us. Regarding that that rule doesn't exist specifically. Come on, LHO's and NON LHO's shouldn't sell any kind of spoilers (aka. exploits, bugs, whatsoever). You aren't a newb and you should/know that... (I tell this with all the respect, just in case, not intentions to offend anybody, but since i'm sleepy better point this out) [/quote] So, you're telling me that it says no where that it is against ANY rules to sell such information, yet it's something more serious than harassment? Also, I did not say your rules did not exist, on the contrary, I asked to see the one pertaining to this. If there is a documented rule that says "Don't do this or you'll be punished", then fine, all's fair, but if people are now being punished based on Grido's [b]whims[/b] of acceptable or not, then I have a problem with it. So no, BFH, I don't know that it's illegal to sell information. Grido's done it himself, in the form of Labyrinth maps, if I am not mistaken.