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Kamisha
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[quote name='Chewett' date='13 March 2010 - 03:23 AM' timestamp='1268472230' post='56322']
The issue with cases is Mur decides, How are you going to present your info about the previous case to Mur? If you are going to do it in the persons statement about what happened, then all it sounds like is that you are telling Mur that he should reduce the punishment. Now from what iv seen, all telling Mur to do something makes it worse for you. And that would be contray to what you are working for.
And i disagree with you if you did the same, that you should get less beacuse Mur said so, I would think you should get more because you knew about the case, Yet you still did it. A little more punishment would lead to more people paying attention to rules.
Also, What do you think witnesses can do with a case such as the one we are talking to? Im not entirely sure but all they can say is "i saw X say something, and then he complained, and i saw nothing else" That isnt evidence since all CTC transfers are sent over pm or if you know each other, yim. evidence doesnt need to be found since mur can easily check the log and check what was said.
I see your role as helping someone who perhaps doesnt know how to structure his plea or something, But really anyone just needs to say what happened and that doesnt take someone else helping as well
Calm down, You said you are having fun responding but it doesnt seem like that was true... I was only asking questions of you because you said you enjoyed it, But if you are "I am personally offended and appalled at this questioning format."
If you think this is a personal attack, Then you are sorely mistaken, I am merely asking some tough questions. If you wanted a personal attack i could point out how pointless your "association" is, how little you can actually do for people, and how i personally think you add a lot of red tape and lies to the entire proceedings. But i havent since i wanted to keep this nice so i could better understand your viewpoint. I welcome anyone to answer my questions for it seems that Kamisha has lost his patience. But if you cant deal with a few questions then im not entirely sure how you would deal with a case.
To End with i will use one of your lawyers words
Ignoreing the fact that you cant do one of the major parts of a lawyers job, If you cant convince us you are useful and that we should use you, What's the point?
[/quote]
Im fine with you asking qestions it is just when everybody gangs up on me and decides to tune out what I say I get pissed off I should have the right to make a response before people jump to conclusions.
Also for your comment on witnesses we do more than just creature transfers. personal harassment log entries and other things that come to court. The court is a place for all boarder line rule breaking, I think that is a point I have to make clear repetitively there is not only one type of case.
Then my final words yes I stand by those. I try to answer your questions to the best of my ability. They may be jumbled at times but I explained we are still in developmental stages I will know more by the next time we talk question. We are still developing.
I invite people to ask questions and publicly speak opinion though jumping to attack is not a constructive workings. I am building a foundation and I ask for constructive opinions not attacks.
Now reducing punishment I am getting to this. Everybody is entitled to a fair punishment by telling mur and listing restrictions this balances the system in order to give a reasonable punishment. Law is a balancing system not a complete punishment program.
Now in response to the other questions or rather statements:
For shadowseeker I say this. If I show weakness I would be accused for weakness instead of making statments that have no backing though some of them do. For example I will back this. When Canada built the louge and a person died on it they put up padding this was proof of it being to hard but if somebody else died they would be blamed for not doing anything. It works in they way you choose to look at anything 100% of the time. -
I am telling you what I can. For example the truth is I cant end up in your place that is in place by mur. I can only council read the f^#*ing post that mur has put there he describes what I can and can not do. Second off I wouldn't know if its traded to him for safe keeping or not it was unclear on who has hold of the creature because all he says is that he is running the auction for the creature in regard to somebody who doesn't have a fourm account. If I miss interpreted it that may be my problem. The reason that some of my arguments seem like simple babbling without construction is because the rules are not solidified untill a case takes place involving lawyers.
So this is my final stance before you judge me although you all seem determined to one goal. The points follow:
- I cant enter your court
- I cant take your place
- I cant change the verdict of a trial or appeal
- I can help you with making a statement prior
- I can help with evidence gathering within reason
- I can make a assumption as to weather you have a case or not.
Any lawyer who says they can do any more than this is in direct violation of both the criminal and civil code of law in MD. We are all bound by the same rules led out by mur. If I said I can do anything more than this in any response you have misinterpreted it. There is a list of independents edited into the first post I have made. You can question them.
It just is starting now to irritate me when people are simply targeting this firm. For example why is Grido, smartalekrj of anderson and anderson not being also targeted they have the same principles i'm the only one answering them and if that sounds like babble and gibberish I would like to see the other firms come up with a better answer. I am personally offended and appalled at this questioning format.
I will also finally point out that your accusations have no backing eathier. I have nothing to work with as this has not yet been put into practice. When I look at your accusations I don't see a question to the firm or the process or any of that all I am seeing is a personal attack directed to me.
Grido of all people here should know better in fact I question him and ask him to answer the following questions:
1)what can you do that I could do just as easily my self.
2)what kind of evidence gathering could you do
3)what kind of techniques would you implement in your case
I also challenge any other firms or individuals to answer these questions without breaking the rules of being a lawyer. I think I am entitled to offer some less than constructive criticism and I invite others to do the same. Also try to do this without lieing I tried to and did so successfully. -
[quote name='Chewett' date='12 March 2010 - 02:53 PM' timestamp='1268427221' post='56292']
Mur has always said that everything varies from case to case (before he actually made a real court) So i dont see where looking for old cases and making a precident would be useful as Mur would evaluate each case as a new one (increaseing the punishment would be the most likely difference for recurring things). Unless the person doesnt know what to say when Mur asks them for a statement, then you might be useful, But how would you "go through with it" and prosecute someone else. How would you raise the problem to mur and such? Surely a problem worthy of Murs time would matter enough that it wouldnt need a certain person to bother him to do it?[/quote]
Yes they do very from case to case I accept that but you can bring a previous case to attention because there is a break down of previous cases for example why Granos had a harder punishment was broken down and because it was the first case brought up it was increased. If mur has reason which im sure he does. The sentence if not the same person would have to be lower by no matter which way you look at it. Lets say I did the exact same a granos and stole a creature from jacoand and said the exact same thing to mur I should by all fairness and reason get the same sentence subtracting that special first case bonus surprise.
[quote name='Chewett' date='12 March 2010 - 02:53 PM' timestamp='1268427221' post='56292']The issue i see here with you finding evidence, is that you would need to be informed of the issue, and then what would you do to collect evidence? Lets take an example then. Lets say that something thinks im being unbelievably mean to them ingame. What would you do to help them? im thinking that they would already have printscreens and such.[/quote]
Ok with this I do understand where you are coming from it is obvious I would be at a loss here. I wasn't there or maybe I was I wouldn't know but gathering people that witnessed the event may be useful. Now the next thing you are going to comment on is the how each party has to be an even amount of people. That is only initial testimony. If mur is unsure now we have a back up those witnesses. Just as evidence can improve your case it can also break it down so some would be recommended to be withheld.
[quote name='Chewett' date='12 March 2010 - 02:53 PM' timestamp='1268427221' post='56292']So, ok lets assume grido didnt pay me for the aramor (forgetting i dont actually have it and i will transfere him to someone else if he wants it) What could you do, that i couldnt do?[/quote]
Ok yes you don't have it I noticed that though since you have possession of it and you are carrying out the trade you can be held 100% accountable by the person that traded it to you. Main point is if you have it you agreed to it your accountable any lawyer will tell you by agreeing to this you are the accountable party. Now what could I do that you couldn't that's a good question and I don't have to answer it for the simple point that I am a councilor since I am not allowed by murs rules to actually follow you into court I council not present.
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Now I welcome you to continue to attack this firm as much as you see fit but the reason I am so good in this position is simply that I love to argue and always expect to be challenged. I have had many years of practice and I am willing to defend this firm to the very end. I can promise you though as long as i'm still around I am not going to allow you to deconstruct this firm and believe it or not i'm actually having fun arguing this. -
[quote name='Orlando Gardiner' date='12 March 2010 - 10:16 AM' timestamp='1268410612' post='56268']
I think with creatures stealing stuf is mostly pretty obvious, people can handle that themself(mostly) and others we indeed help how to work with it, what to gather as information and how to bring it.
more interesting cases should be like wp quest rewardings to friends, fights between players and harassement and role play - 'sex,. those problems have no exact borders and are harder to get evidence, that's where help is most required.
[/quote]
I have to agree. Screen shots of such can be somewhat unpredictable though and somebody is really good with photo shop they can alter them undetectably. However lucky the background has some texture to it so you can actually see some imperfections if they choose to alter it and some other methods I have at my disposal which I will not publicly announce with good reason.
Though continuing on the creature theft thing there are some other things we can do.
chewett I think it is only fair that we use your armor
[b]Right, i have an obscenely old aramor that i am selling
It will be older than most of you guys
ID: 26892
Age as of Day 57: 831
If anyone is intrested in such an old creature, Send me a PM
Current Price: 8 Silver by Grido
NOTE: i am selling this FOR someone who doesnt have a forum account. [/b]
Interesting that you are selling it. Actually it would be unwise to discuss a probable case here ill send you a pm including details.
Disclaimer: Not saying grido is untrustworthy worthy just keeping the possibility open.
Edit: addition of disclaimer. -
Basically what we do is find previous cases you can bring up that may help you reduce a sentence if you are being prosecuted as well as key words to use and weather you should attempt to fight it or simply try reason a bit more. In the case that you are going to look to prosecute somebody else you can come to one of us in order to look at what evidence you have and if we think you have sufficient proof in order to go through with it.
Our basic job is in order to help inexperienced people or people with little time get advice and important facts that they could attempt to use. -
I see all kings doing this in fact if I had it my way I would completely eliminate this restriction. Thats why I never ask kings for wish points it just creates unfair advantages and causes my quests to be somewhat manipulated much more than I wish to see them changed.
I don't like to sellout and that's what happens if I ask kings for wishpoints. I actually see this as somewhat of a violation of rules to tell you the truth as wish points are given out for completing quests not for getting an advantage or being part of a land. I understand the reason for it will increase the role play of there land but I just don't think it works. -
Can somebody do what should have been done a long time ago. all arguments have been completed and everybody who wants to say something has been said. A moderator please close this tread before waste any more time just repeating ourselves.
This thread should be dead by now. DST is not going to be punished as there is nothing to hold against her as she is playing within the rules. Nobody is going to get there moderator status back unless deemed appropriate but that should not be argued in this thread there is a place to talk about it and its not here.
Regardless of what has happened has and its not going back now stop this topic from popping up as being posted in it get annoying when I have to say everything is read. -
Sry to double post but I must bring to the attention of the public immediately that all creature trade law cases be brought to one of our lawyers attention within at least 48 hours in order to increase our chances of success and a investigation if it is a creature trade. With this new implication it is paramount that we can run some investigation.
If calling us after this time our chances of completing your case successfully will drop significantly. If you want a representative or counciling that is once again within the 48 hours please though it is not necessary it greatly increases your chances.
Make sure to also retain the id of your creature before trading. -
I like the idea though this could be abused. I guess a creature that follows the rules of the card wall of shadows is out of the question
. Though I do enjoy the possibility of this creature. It would involve a lot of new coding I would suggest and recommend a way to bypass the wall. I mean in magic the main perpouse of a wall is to block incoming creatures from the ground and make you struggle with only elements of attack from the air. I would suggest making the wall only be able to block single attacking creatures. Multi would act like trample one attack to the wall and one to the creature behind. Then all would well im lost for this one. -
[quote name='Master' date='02 March 2010 - 05:21 AM' timestamp='1267528883' post='55612']
I would be happy to be on the Judge list ( only if you need more people ) however , I don't want to be pointed out as the GG representative, just a simple neutral judge.
[/quote]
Welcome to the judging panel.
Rember all writers must post there submission on the final day of April at 00:00 central time no acceptations and all late submissions will be ignored.Remember to take into consideration that all stories must absolutely follow the MD laws of physics as you in vision them. -
I already see a problem. Since there is not limit to how many of these creatures one could have the result could be a team of entirely parasites. I know that would be my strategy. The result would be an entire team of the opposition infected attacking among them selves. Even if it could be coded (which would take a entire flip in battle structure the implications of its use could be worse than the token problem (which becomes more and more necessary) I'm fine with the idea of a parasitic creature but the use of it would have to be different. Instead of taking control it would sap the life of a target. Similar to an elemental but being able to take more as the Vitality of this creature is very low.
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well considering the story line I propose a new system to be incorporated though this one takes some work but will eventually stabilize. For the first while it will only be the people who are active like the first hundred or so because any more than that would be an overload for any one person to view seriously and to tell you the truth I think mur looking over 100 is insane by most of our standards and during elections you could write a whole page if you so choose to.
The responses are rated as they usually are in order to get the points. The points are tallied and an average is drawn from the results. From the average only those players are allowed to make a comment the higher the score the more often.
Example:
top 10% always get to comment.
top 40% comment 2/3 of the time.
lower 30% comment 1/2 of the time.
Lower 20% are randomly selected.
For new players entering the system they will be able to comment by random selection. You can obviously bury your self a grave but you can easily get out of it if you work at it. You do however have to have some knowledge of murs mind in order to get into the top 10%. So this may cause bias in the story it would obviously have to be tested before a full launch as this may cause a total exclusion of characters or some other unforeseen problems. If you have any concerns obviously I would like to hear them. We have to find a refined system that takes the human element out prior to being viewed. -
Is there anybody we can assign to this. As time progresses this is going to get worse as sites change domains and methods of voting to stop bots from voting. There are going to be more and more broken links.
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I'm sorry but im usually the bad guy in these cases. I'm not saying this for personal benefit considering I haven't payed a cent not because I don't want to just because I don't have a good method (at least yet).
Though on the thought of tokens I'm neutral because yes I get beat up by them but in order to keep the game running they have to be incorporated. I could agree with reducing there effect but complete removal is not an option. Where do you think Mur gets the money for the servers. There are two big places tokens and creature capacity increases.
You have to look at both sides before you make a final decision on this. -
[quote name='phantasm' date='04 March 2010 - 02:08 PM' timestamp='1267733282' post='55745']
agreed Jester. The point of a client hiring you is in hopes that you will win the case in the way they are seeking. If they are guilty, you know they are guilty, they know they are guilty, but you can show the intent wasn't meant in a malicious way, then you can get them a less severe discipline. If that's the route they wish to take. Also, the point of those who would bring a case against someone, is as I stated before. Bringing up charges against someone, when those charges can't be proven, is a very big mistake. I think a lot of what will go on, if indeed more cases begin to arise, is that layouts will be made in an elegant fashion as to best prove ones point. Wether Defendant, or Plaintiff both seek to win their case. If people know they are guilty and the evidence i overwhelming, the only point of hiring a lawyer would be in hopes of a less severe punishment.
[/quote]
This is the exact point a made at the beginning of this topic. -
hmm wonder what jail is like. Though isn't it unfair to punish him more if somebody else releases him in truth it isn't his choice when he leaves.
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Can we get back on topic please I already start enough indirect wars when I say something that is abstract. I don't need fights starting when I say something on topic.
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[quote name='Malaikat Maut' date='01 March 2010 - 08:22 AM' timestamp='1267453361' post='55565']
Discussions aren't about winning. However, legal cases aren't discussions. You yourself have just committed a logical fallacy by equating two things that aren't necessarily equal in an attempt to debase or undermine the position of one of your peers. Again, unwise.
[/quote]
I do not claim to be wise I just claim that I can help people win. I haven't devalued I have simply pointed out something that may hurt our credibility. Regardless if this is the wise idea or not if somebody is to see this they will see this as a weakness which has been proven above by jester. Continuing this was posted in a fourm regarding debates. A court trial is simply a debate in general speech. Countering each other and refuting claims with evidence or devaluing a claim in order to reduce the sentence.
We council people on facts they can bring up and if somebody says something we give them some idea of how they can devalue a claim.
As always I understand where you are coming from but I cant only look at the fact of what I see and what I don't; I have to see what other people see and don't. You have to know where it comes from also has to be an area to look at. -
Sry about the outburst if you can call it that. Usually in most games when I talk out against a leader or somebody important they find some technicality to silence or just right out get rid of me.
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[quote name='Grido' date='27 February 2010 - 09:39 PM' timestamp='1267328340' post='55447']
In actual court, a single firm cannot represent the interests of both parties, for the same reasons, it would be sensible for the same here.
[/quote]
I understand that is the case though actual firms can only work as a team in my regulations when a case is taken and more than one person is approached with each side they actually are working then as two completely independent councilperson. They cant speak or consult each other until the verdict is approached and posted. Now lets say they where working together in order to fix the final verdict in favor of one person. This I cant have and I understand that now that you bring that up it has occurred to me thanks by the way. This reflects badly on me as currently being the spokes person as it seems now at least. I am required to defend that. This is why I am going to apply a new rule to the what ever you want to call it for now until we get a name. In the case that this happens I will first deal with it as a internal affair basically we reach a verdict within the (what ever it is) even I can be convicted with the villainy. We have three now so this works. The neutral councilor acts as the judge and the proceedings go similar to murs. In such a case that somebody is convicted or both are then the name or names will be posted publicly and to what case. The losing side at least I think the losing side can then sue that person for repertions for there loses. I will not be defending these people and if I am found of such I request not to be defended. Its just that so many people want to take part I want people to have an equal right to a lawyer no matter what the crime.
I will always post who we are representing so people if they feel turned off by such can contact a different party in this case of what I know of that is only Grido.
[quote name='Jester' date='28 February 2010 - 09:45 AM' timestamp='1267371945' post='55486']
"Discussion is not about 'winning, but about sharing toughts and learn what other people think about it, or to get a compromise between two parties." - Orlando Gardiner
An interesting viewpoint for a lawyer.
[/quote]
Saw it my self and I find it somewhat disturbing. I make neutral thoughts only in the case that im not representing anybody at least at the moment. To find a compromise I agree with but in court it is not compromise it is finding who is guilty. The only compromise is the sentence. Since you are half way there I do have to give you credit. You enter but as a consultant not a lawyer until you can show me you have straitened that kink out. You cant take cases but in the case that the evidence is against someone one of our lawyers can come to you if they are stuck to find a way to supply information to maybe reduce the sentence.
You can choose to take or leave it I hope you understand. -
My personal opinion well since this isn't a case (at least yet) I can take a very neutral approach to this. Well using a CTC of another creature does consequence the individual who holds the actual creature it is important to understand that doing this does and has attack another individual.
Now saying you do have a case would in fact be a truth as the evidence does support the fact that the creature was taken and the CTC was used without your consent and the creature being removed from your inventory is wrong but there is the ability to confiscate anything from anybody in a case as long as it has baring to the case which this obviously does.
This being said you can still fight for it back but my personal opinion would be to not pursue it. Though you could attempt to sue Granos for using your CTC that would be vain as you wouldn't be rewarded anything as the creature is not in his possession and thus he does not have the right to give it back (though this may inflict a additional punishment on him). You could attack Jacoand but once again no creature return and he could simply plea that he was new to the system and attempting to use it simply overlooked the name factor involved.
Unfortunate though and I mean no offense meant though just simply speaking with the facts and yes I know this sounds very bad in every way possible the only person you could take this up with is Mur himself.
God I must be crazy im likely going to get this post deleted butchered my account maybe punished and even if that doesn't happen so many people are going to rate me down my posting ability will be suspended if not completely restricted by saying this but of course this is the truth im just saying it.
Though trying to get your creature back through a case I must say is futile and ill just list off the reasons in my last seconds of posting freedom:
-He's Mur has the most favor in the game world (no jury would vote against him)
-Mur holds all the evidence
-Mur controls the court because he is the judge (basic mafia rules apply)
-Lets say by some merical you did win the reason Mur is not willing to argue it is because it is already gone.
That's it make your comments or what ever. -
[quote name='Orlando Gardiner' date='28 February 2010 - 09:11 AM' timestamp='1267369875' post='55482']
none has won the discussion. Discussion is not about 'winning, but about sharing toughts and learn what other people think about it, or to get a compromise between two parties.
[/quote]
ON that logic there would be no final idea as what we accept as fact for lack of a better term. There always is a chosen winner who is the person who can over rule the opponents thoughts and also support there own. -
[quote name='Orlando Gardiner' date='27 February 2010 - 02:23 AM' timestamp='1267259008' post='55388']
I am willing to be a lawyer to, but since I am NOT that flexible I let it up to you to decide if I would fit or not.
[/quote]
Flexibility shouldn't be an issue as we have others that can fill in in your absence as long as you of course privately fill in the blanks of what you have already talked about. Though make sure you are only talking to a lawyer that is not defending the other side. Though this firm works together if we are hired by both sides it is paramount that our credibility is not damaged in such a way.
However I do require some experience for people that are signing up. I cant accept everybody into the firm or else MD would just be a mashup of a single firm. -
[quote name='Grido' date='26 February 2010 - 08:15 PM' timestamp='1267236904' post='55375']
I would be a Defense Attorney, but not part of your firm, i just wished to state my intent. And also to emphasise that there should not just be a single firm that controls all the Lawyers.
I can also be hired as a consultant, in that role, i would remain anonomous, and provide tips and ideas pertaining to the case, to aid in it. This differs from a Defense Attorney as that would involve me publicly speaking on your behalf.
Fees are decided on a case by case basis.
[/quote]
I completely understand your intent. The ideal is that yes we need more than one firm or individuals. There must be more than one central power or else there could be corruption. Being consultants we could use bad advice. Though I try to make it as fair as possible I cant grantee that for example I can not speak to another person in the firm representing the opposing party. If the 2nd party has a problem with us representing the first party they should have a choice of another 3rd party then ourselves.
Oh yes and apophys you are accepted if you have truly done what you say you have. I would have been the judge in your trial if we went to the same school.
Law And Lawyers
in Lawyer's Office
Posted
Nobody has posted one yet. The reason for no trials is due to the community not due to mur.