asryn

Just a minor thing, but perhaps the time of the awards ceremony could be posted clearly a bit further in advance? I had hoped to attend, but didn't see the announcement until later that evening after the festivities had ended.

Option 1 penalizes far more random people than it does people abusing the system.

Let's assume that in the normal course of gameplay, 10 mp3 would reach the cap in any given week as a result of regular battles and progress in the game. Whoever happens to be fighting them when this happens would be penalized. If there happens to be someone running around capping newbies, maybe 5 extra people will be capped. So in this scenario, 10 players get penalized just for level-appropriate fighting and 1 troublemaker gets 5x the penalty.

If no one happens to be causing trouble in any given week, 10 random players will still get penalized.

I'm picking numbers out of thin air, but you get the idea. Unless this kind of abuse is way more common than I think it is, the vast majority of people penalized by this system would be people playing appropriately. I know MD isn't supposed to be fair, but that seems like a pretty significant negative side effect to me.

Option 1 penalizes far more random people than it does people abusing the system.

Let's assume that in the normal course of gameplay, 10 mp3 would reach the cap in any given week as a result of regular battles and progress in the game. Whoever happens to be fighting them when this happens would be penalized. If there happens to be someone running around capping newbies, maybe 5 extra people will be capped. So in this scenario, 10 players get penalized just for level-appropriate fighting and 1 troublemaker gets 5x the penalty.

If no one happens to be causing trouble in any given week, 10 random players will still get penalized.

I'm picking numbers out of thin air, but you get the idea. Unless this kind of abuse is way more common than I think it is, the vast majority of people penalized by this system would be people playing appropriately. I know MD isn't supposed to be fair, but that seems like a pretty significant negative side effect to me.

Option 1 penalizes far more random people than it does people abusing the system.

Let's assume that in the normal course of gameplay, 10 mp3 would reach the cap in any given week as a result of regular battles and progress in the game. Whoever happens to be fighting them when this happens would be penalized. If there happens to be someone running around capping newbies, maybe 5 extra people will be capped. So in this scenario, 10 players get penalized just for level-appropriate fighting and 1 troublemaker gets 5x the penalty.

If no one happens to be causing trouble in any given week, 10 random players will still get penalized.

I'm picking numbers out of thin air, but you get the idea. Unless this kind of abuse is way more common than I think it is, the vast majority of people penalized by this system would be people playing appropriately. I know MD isn't supposed to be fair, but that seems like a pretty significant negative side effect to me.

Option 1 penalizes far more random people than it does people abusing the system.

Let's assume that in the normal course of gameplay, 10 mp3 would reach the cap in any given week as a result of regular battles and progress in the game. Whoever happens to be fighting them when this happens would be penalized. If there happens to be someone running around capping newbies, maybe 5 extra people will be capped. So in this scenario, 10 players get penalized just for level-appropriate fighting and 1 troublemaker gets 5x the penalty.

If no one happens to be causing trouble in any given week, 10 random players will still get penalized.

I'm picking numbers out of thin air, but you get the idea. Unless this kind of abuse is way more common than I think it is, the vast majority of people penalized by this system would be people playing appropriately. I know MD isn't supposed to be fair, but that seems like a pretty significant negative side effect to me.

Just to remind everyone that homophobic comments are not acceptable and can lead to harsh punishments. You are allowed to have your own opinions but we dont want to hear them here.

In addition please try and can keep the swearing the an absolute minimum. There are minors on the board and we would like to keep it relatively clean.

One member has just received a temporary ban for both of these.

Again if you wish to debate these two points, please do so below.

I have more than 100 active days now, so it would appear that I am no longer eligible for the Rookie award. I do appreciate the regard of those who nominated me.

I have more than 100 active days now, so it would appear that I am no longer eligible for the Rookie award. I do appreciate the regard of those who nominated me.

I have more than 100 active days now, so it would appear that I am no longer eligible for the Rookie award. I do appreciate the regard of those who nominated me.

I have more than 100 active days now, so it would appear that I am no longer eligible for the Rookie award. I do appreciate the regard of those who nominated me.

[quote name='CrazyMike' date='24 November 2009 - 08:02 PM' timestamp='1259121720' post='48418']

The point that I have always been trying to make is that different people have different levels of sensitivities.

[/quote]

I actually don't disagree with that, Mike. There are a lot of things which affect how we interpret language - judgment, culture, experience, preference. That's why I think warnings are appropriate before punishment. All I am saying is, can we as a community please err on the side of avoiding offense, and set the bar for public discussions at a level where everyone can feel comfortable?

[quote name='dst' date='28 November 2009 - 12:11 AM' timestamp='1259395916' post='48599']
Thank you asryn. But can we see the solution also? Just for pure information.
[/quote]

So I considered that, but given the nature of the quest it seems a bit spoilery. Since part of my goal was to encourage exploration, I would prefer to let people discover these things for themselves. However if those who participated have any specific questions feel free to contact me, and I will do my best to provide either answers or hints as seems appropriate.

[quote name='CrazyMike' date='24 November 2009 - 08:02 PM' timestamp='1259121720' post='48418']

The point that I have always been trying to make is that different people have different levels of sensitivities.

[/quote]

I actually don't disagree with that, Mike. There are a lot of things which affect how we interpret language - judgment, culture, experience, preference. That's why I think warnings are appropriate before punishment. All I am saying is, can we as a community please err on the side of avoiding offense, and set the bar for public discussions at a level where everyone can feel comfortable?

[quote name='CrazyMike' date='24 November 2009 - 08:02 PM' timestamp='1259121720' post='48418']

The point that I have always been trying to make is that different people have different levels of sensitivities.

[/quote]

I actually don't disagree with that, Mike. There are a lot of things which affect how we interpret language - judgment, culture, experience, preference. That's why I think warnings are appropriate before punishment. All I am saying is, can we as a community please err on the side of avoiding offense, and set the bar for public discussions at a level where everyone can feel comfortable?

Ok Fenrir, apparently that is what you intended to say. So I will stop wasting my breath on that particular line of reasoning.

I see two problems with Mike's proposal. One is that PLs are used for other game functions - notes from quest creators, sparring ground warnings, etc. We don't want players to be able to edit or remove those on a whim. Nor do we want people to be able to otherwise meddle with what is written, otherwise there is no point to the logs at all.

The other is the point that I made earlier. When Pample calls Fenrir an idiot, she is insulting only him. Comments like the one in Phantom Orchid's log insult an entire group of people, as well as anyone who cares about them. Had I come across that comment in someone else's log I would have been offended by it, even if the log owner wasn't. Honestly it is the fact that these types of comments get scattered around so lightly that I find most upsetting, much more so than if they were just being directed at me personally. So I really think there needs to be some way to address offensive comments even if they are not in your own log.

As far as I am concerned people can use whatever language they like in private conversations, PMs, etc. But player logs and papers are public, and I think the language used should reflect that. If people want to call each names, or make negative comments, that's fine. I'm not saying it has to be all sweetness and light, just that we are intelligent and eloquent enough to find ways of insulting individuals without offending whole communities of innocent bystanders at the same time.

Anyway, I like the idea of giving someone editing power, but I would prefer to see some type of moderator. It works in the forum, why not in game? It would be a much smaller job - just someone whose name could be posted as the person to contact if you see something inappropriate, who could step in and make changes if needed. Can't imagine it would be needed often, but I do think it would be worthwhile.

[quote name='Fenrir Greycloth' date='23 November 2009 - 11:34 AM' timestamp='1259004873' post='48255']

Zleiph I never said that saying it was right. I was merely pointing out that it is up to the person being called a name to be offended. If they are black and called a N!!!!!', it only affects them if they are sensitive about being black. If I am called a cracker, I laugh it off. It's a word. They make themselves look stupid when The person doesn't react negatively. Names are just that, names.

We are not in the 1960s anymore. These words do not have the same effect anymore.Their meanings have changed dramatically, if you don't agree with me on anything. You have to agree with me about this.
[/quote]

*takes a deep breath* Fenrir, I agree that words do change with time, but that is not the same thing as saying that their history is irrelevant. The ability of a word to harm isn't something that disappears overnight, or even over decades. What you appear to be saying here is that if someone is offended by a word or phrase, it is essentially their own fault for being too sensitive, since in your mind the words themselves are now harmless.

I am willing to give people the benefit of the doubt, and assume that their intentions in choosing those words are benign unless they give me a reason to think otherwise. But it is not up to you to dictate how people should react to hearing them, and what they should and shouldn't find hurtful. Words can be hurtful for any number of reasons, even unintentionally. They can create mental links to unpleasant memories, they can demonstrate subconscious biases, they can hide in joke form sentiments that truly are harmful. Just because you aren't trying to offend doesn't mean your words can't be offensive. The effects of words are defined by the one listening, not the one speaking.

The language people use in private conversations doesn't particularly concern me. But MD chat and player logs are public spaces, viewable by anyone. The types of words we are discussing are upsetting to many people, myself included, and the fact that someone knows someone who isn't bothered by them doesn't make that any less true. Surely we can agree to err on the side of civility and avoid speaking in ways that are likely to hurt people? There are enough other words in the English language, even insulting ones when needed, that I really don't think that is an unreasonable request.

Your statement above essentially said one of two things: either you are telling people how they should feel, or you are telling them that their feelings are irrelevant. I hope that isn't what you intended to say, but that is how it sounded to me.

[quote name='CrazyMike' date='23 November 2009 - 12:29 AM' timestamp='1258964967' post='48167']
LOL.....

Can we safely say the issue is dead or should we discuss options available?
[/quote]

I realize this post was originally about that one comment, but I dealt with a very similar issue not long ago and I continue to occasionally stumble across offensive comments when reading other people's PLs. Right now the only recourse is to speak out publicly, track down the offender in game, and convince them to make the change. If you can't find that person, or they aren't willing to cooperate, you are out of luck. I think it would be a good idea to have some admin type person who is able to edit PLs who can be contacted in these situations, if the above method doesn't work or if someone is uncomfortable having that sort of confrontation.

[quote name='Fenrir Greycloth' date='23 November 2009 - 11:34 AM' timestamp='1259004873' post='48255']

Zleiph I never said that saying it was right. I was merely pointing out that it is up to the person being called a name to be offended. If they are black and called a N!!!!!', it only affects them if they are sensitive about being black. If I am called a cracker, I laugh it off. It's a word. They make themselves look stupid when The person doesn't react negatively. Names are just that, names.

We are not in the 1960s anymore. These words do not have the same effect anymore.Their meanings have changed dramatically, if you don't agree with me on anything. You have to agree with me about this.
[/quote]

*takes a deep breath* Fenrir, I agree that words do change with time, but that is not the same thing as saying that their history is irrelevant. The ability of a word to harm isn't something that disappears overnight, or even over decades. What you appear to be saying here is that if someone is offended by a word or phrase, it is essentially their own fault for being too sensitive, since in your mind the words themselves are now harmless.

I am willing to give people the benefit of the doubt, and assume that their intentions in choosing those words are benign unless they give me a reason to think otherwise. But it is not up to you to dictate how people should react to hearing them, and what they should and shouldn't find hurtful. Words can be hurtful for any number of reasons, even unintentionally. They can create mental links to unpleasant memories, they can demonstrate subconscious biases, they can hide in joke form sentiments that truly are harmful. Just because you aren't trying to offend doesn't mean your words can't be offensive. The effects of words are defined by the one listening, not the one speaking.

The language people use in private conversations doesn't particularly concern me. But MD chat and player logs are public spaces, viewable by anyone. The types of words we are discussing are upsetting to many people, myself included, and the fact that someone knows someone who isn't bothered by them doesn't make that any less true. Surely we can agree to err on the side of civility and avoid speaking in ways that are likely to hurt people? There are enough other words in the English language, even insulting ones when needed, that I really don't think that is an unreasonable request.

Your statement above essentially said one of two things: either you are telling people how they should feel, or you are telling them that their feelings are irrelevant. I hope that isn't what you intended to say, but that is how it sounded to me.

[quote name='Fenrir Greycloth' date='23 November 2009 - 11:34 AM' timestamp='1259004873' post='48255']

Zleiph I never said that saying it was right. I was merely pointing out that it is up to the person being called a name to be offended. If they are black and called a N!!!!!', it only affects them if they are sensitive about being black. If I am called a cracker, I laugh it off. It's a word. They make themselves look stupid when The person doesn't react negatively. Names are just that, names.

We are not in the 1960s anymore. These words do not have the same effect anymore.Their meanings have changed dramatically, if you don't agree with me on anything. You have to agree with me about this.
[/quote]

*takes a deep breath* Fenrir, I agree that words do change with time, but that is not the same thing as saying that their history is irrelevant. The ability of a word to harm isn't something that disappears overnight, or even over decades. What you appear to be saying here is that if someone is offended by a word or phrase, it is essentially their own fault for being too sensitive, since in your mind the words themselves are now harmless.

I am willing to give people the benefit of the doubt, and assume that their intentions in choosing those words are benign unless they give me a reason to think otherwise. But it is not up to you to dictate how people should react to hearing them, and what they should and shouldn't find hurtful. Words can be hurtful for any number of reasons, even unintentionally. They can create mental links to unpleasant memories, they can demonstrate subconscious biases, they can hide in joke form sentiments that truly are harmful. Just because you aren't trying to offend doesn't mean your words can't be offensive. The effects of words are defined by the one listening, not the one speaking.

The language people use in private conversations doesn't particularly concern me. But MD chat and player logs are public spaces, viewable by anyone. The types of words we are discussing are upsetting to many people, myself included, and the fact that someone knows someone who isn't bothered by them doesn't make that any less true. Surely we can agree to err on the side of civility and avoid speaking in ways that are likely to hurt people? There are enough other words in the English language, even insulting ones when needed, that I really don't think that is an unreasonable request.

Your statement above essentially said one of two things: either you are telling people how they should feel, or you are telling them that their feelings are irrelevant. I hope that isn't what you intended to say, but that is how it sounded to me.

[quote name='Fenrir Greycloth' date='23 November 2009 - 11:34 AM' timestamp='1259004873' post='48255']

Zleiph I never said that saying it was right. I was merely pointing out that it is up to the person being called a name to be offended. If they are black and called a N!!!!!', it only affects them if they are sensitive about being black. If I am called a cracker, I laugh it off. It's a word. They make themselves look stupid when The person doesn't react negatively. Names are just that, names.

We are not in the 1960s anymore. These words do not have the same effect anymore.Their meanings have changed dramatically, if you don't agree with me on anything. You have to agree with me about this.
[/quote]

*takes a deep breath* Fenrir, I agree that words do change with time, but that is not the same thing as saying that their history is irrelevant. The ability of a word to harm isn't something that disappears overnight, or even over decades. What you appear to be saying here is that if someone is offended by a word or phrase, it is essentially their own fault for being too sensitive, since in your mind the words themselves are now harmless.

I am willing to give people the benefit of the doubt, and assume that their intentions in choosing those words are benign unless they give me a reason to think otherwise. But it is not up to you to dictate how people should react to hearing them, and what they should and shouldn't find hurtful. Words can be hurtful for any number of reasons, even unintentionally. They can create mental links to unpleasant memories, they can demonstrate subconscious biases, they can hide in joke form sentiments that truly are harmful. Just because you aren't trying to offend doesn't mean your words can't be offensive. The effects of words are defined by the one listening, not the one speaking.

The language people use in private conversations doesn't particularly concern me. But MD chat and player logs are public spaces, viewable by anyone. The types of words we are discussing are upsetting to many people, myself included, and the fact that someone knows someone who isn't bothered by them doesn't make that any less true. Surely we can agree to err on the side of civility and avoid speaking in ways that are likely to hurt people? There are enough other words in the English language, even insulting ones when needed, that I really don't think that is an unreasonable request.

Your statement above essentially said one of two things: either you are telling people how they should feel, or you are telling them that their feelings are irrelevant. I hope that isn't what you intended to say, but that is how it sounded to me.

[quote name='Fenrir Greycloth' date='23 November 2009 - 11:34 AM' timestamp='1259004873' post='48255']

Zleiph I never said that saying it was right. I was merely pointing out that it is up to the person being called a name to be offended. If they are black and called a N!!!!!', it only affects them if they are sensitive about being black. If I am called a cracker, I laugh it off. It's a word. They make themselves look stupid when The person doesn't react negatively. Names are just that, names.

We are not in the 1960s anymore. These words do not have the same effect anymore.Their meanings have changed dramatically, if you don't agree with me on anything. You have to agree with me about this.
[/quote]

*takes a deep breath* Fenrir, I agree that words do change with time, but that is not the same thing as saying that their history is irrelevant. The ability of a word to harm isn't something that disappears overnight, or even over decades. What you appear to be saying here is that if someone is offended by a word or phrase, it is essentially their own fault for being too sensitive, since in your mind the words themselves are now harmless.

I am willing to give people the benefit of the doubt, and assume that their intentions in choosing those words are benign unless they give me a reason to think otherwise. But it is not up to you to dictate how people should react to hearing them, and what they should and shouldn't find hurtful. Words can be hurtful for any number of reasons, even unintentionally. They can create mental links to unpleasant memories, they can demonstrate subconscious biases, they can hide in joke form sentiments that truly are harmful. Just because you aren't trying to offend doesn't mean your words can't be offensive. The effects of words are defined by the one listening, not the one speaking.

The language people use in private conversations doesn't particularly concern me. But MD chat and player logs are public spaces, viewable by anyone. The types of words we are discussing are upsetting to many people, myself included, and the fact that someone knows someone who isn't bothered by them doesn't make that any less true. Surely we can agree to err on the side of civility and avoid speaking in ways that are likely to hurt people? There are enough other words in the English language, even insulting ones when needed, that I really don't think that is an unreasonable request.

Your statement above essentially said one of two things: either you are telling people how they should feel, or you are telling them that their feelings are irrelevant. I hope that isn't what you intended to say, but that is how it sounded to me.

[quote name='CrazyMike' date='23 November 2009 - 12:29 AM' timestamp='1258964967' post='48167']
LOL.....

Can we safely say the issue is dead or should we discuss options available?
[/quote]

I realize this post was originally about that one comment, but I dealt with a very similar issue not long ago and I continue to occasionally stumble across offensive comments when reading other people's PLs. Right now the only recourse is to speak out publicly, track down the offender in game, and convince them to make the change. If you can't find that person, or they aren't willing to cooperate, you are out of luck. I think it would be a good idea to have some admin type person who is able to edit PLs who can be contacted in these situations, if the above method doesn't work or if someone is uncomfortable having that sort of confrontation.

I agree. A swearword is primarily upsetting to the person whose log they are posted in, and possibly not even that depending on one's sensibilities. Comments such as those are offensive to an entire group of people, and by extension to anyone who cares about people in that group. I have no problem with negative comments in PLs, but I am getting tired of looking at personal logs and stumbling across these sorts of entries. I have already spoken to a different player about a similar matter and forced them to change my own PL, but I am still seeing these comments in other logs. I would like to see MD remain a place where everyone feels welcome, and to me that means not tolerating such language.

To be fair, I do think using these words as insults is quite common in some communities. I used to hear them all the time when I worked with middle school and high school students. Most of them were not trying to be offensive; they had simply never thought about what those words actually mean and how it might sound to others. So I would favor starting with a warning, complete with an explanation. Should they continue to speak in that fashion after being told how offensive it is, then move on to stronger punishments.

Edited to Add: I posted this before seeing DR's response. So I will just say thank you for stepping forward and remedying your part of the situation. I still think it would serve MD well to have a policy about this sort of thing, and perhaps someone with the ability to step in and edit logs should it prove necessary.

I agree. A swearword is primarily upsetting to the person whose log they are posted in, and possibly not even that depending on one's sensibilities. Comments such as those are offensive to an entire group of people, and by extension to anyone who cares about people in that group. I have no problem with negative comments in PLs, but I am getting tired of looking at personal logs and stumbling across these sorts of entries. I have already spoken to a different player about a similar matter and forced them to change my own PL, but I am still seeing these comments in other logs. I would like to see MD remain a place where everyone feels welcome, and to me that means not tolerating such language.

To be fair, I do think using these words as insults is quite common in some communities. I used to hear them all the time when I worked with middle school and high school students. Most of them were not trying to be offensive; they had simply never thought about what those words actually mean and how it might sound to others. So I would favor starting with a warning, complete with an explanation. Should they continue to speak in that fashion after being told how offensive it is, then move on to stronger punishments.

Edited to Add: I posted this before seeing DR's response. So I will just say thank you for stepping forward and remedying your part of the situation. I still think it would serve MD well to have a policy about this sort of thing, and perhaps someone with the ability to step in and edit logs should it prove necessary.

So I doubt this is really why most people don't stay, but I do think it's relevant to this thread, so I will say it anyway.

One of the things I have been hearing since I got here is how unique MD is (which it is), and how it encourages a different type of player than many other games. And so when someone shows up who has no patience, and no willingness to work things out on their own, and no interest in talking to other people - most of the time those people leave on their own, which is probably better for everyone. The people who choose to stay take pride in the game that they are helping to develop - and they should, because it's a pretty amazing place.

At the same time, you can't have it both ways. The longer the list of qualities someone needs to have to be welcome in MD, the fewer the number of people who are going to have all of them. And while the pride that people take in MD is part of what I find so attractive about it, I think it sometimes comes across in ways that are not particularly welcoming to newbies.

When a new player expresses frustration with some aspect of the game, or suggests an improvement, or does something that they didn't realize is discouraged, they are often shut down pretty hard, even if their intentions were good. And if they try to ask why, or to start a discussion about it, they are criticized for not having enough patience, or whatever relevant desired quality a good MD player is supposed to have, often in a very dismissive fashion. I've seen this happen multiple times, both in game and on the forum, and I really think it's discouraging. The message seems to be that if you don't have every quality on the list all the time, then you aren't good enough to be part of MD.

I'll use Wolfmist's RP thread as an example, just because it's recent. I actually agree that the forum isn't the place for that, but certainly a reasonable person might have assumed otherwise. And he was trying to develop a character, something many newbies are criticized for not doing fast enough. Couldn't someone have acknowledged that he was trying to make a positive contribution, explained politely why we don't use the forum for roleplaying, and suggested better alternatives? I know that happened eventually, but why couldn't that have been the initial reaction? Again this isn't so much a comment on that specific issue, but I've seen that sort of thing happen many times in different situations.

I'm not saying we need to go out of our way for every newbie standing at the gazebo whining at the top of their lungs, but if someone is displaying at least some positive qualities then maybe we could be a bit more patient and encouraging as they find their way. It's the nature of a game that is different and expects different things from its players that not everyone is going to be a perfect fit right away, but many people could be with a little time. And really, don't we want the type of players who want to understand the game and who get excited about discussing new ideas? I know it creates work for people to explain things, especially when some of the same suggestions get made over and over, but I think it is still worthwhile. Maybe Grido's FAQ will help with this, or maybe people can start saving some of their responses to cut and paste. And who knows, if enough people are bothered by the same issue then maybe it's one that deserves a closer look rather than being dismissed out of hand as 'not how we do things here'.

I think this post is coming across as more critical than I intended it to, but I felt like it needed to be said. MD also has several really fabulous and creative ways of supporting newbies, including the LHOs and and the adept system, and I have seen just as many examples of people going out of their way to be helpful and to answer questions. If MD wasn't an amazing place filled with amazing people, I wouldn't still be here. But I do think that there is a lack of patience with unintentional screw-ups and a level of defensiveness about any implied criticism of the game that seems totally unnecessary to me. The game is still in development, which means that how things work isn't set in stone and isn't always clear, and I'm sure I'm not the only newbie who didn't really appreciate what that meant at the beginning in terms of things not being in their final forms yet. But MD has come a long way, and it is built on a strong enough foundation to withstand some criticism and even a bit of shaking from new players who bounce around a bit as they try to settle in. And I would like to think that it's possible to take pride in what has been accomplished without sending the message that so many people just aren't worthy of being a part of it.