Ary Endleg

I was implying that it's well hidden :D

Also it will be applied only to specific type of creature. For example Rusty will only boost stats of GG.

That's too high of coincidence. Does it maybe always hit same slot, making it bugged?

Okay I worded it badly, they are potentially the most OP. Sounds better? Afterall they can freeze all 6 creatures with no remedy to it if it happens. This is equally extreme situation to all of them hitting same creature. Freezes are prioritized since they can give the the biggest and hardest to counter edge. But yes it's all luck.

What DD said. GG doesn't have creatboost. Moreover do you know what creatboost is and how it works? I don't get what doublecreatboost should be, the double amount of creatboost? This is insane, creatboosts should be getting nerfs! Ask Burns. Your whole hard work regarding this idea is wasted due to above things.

Indeed, freeze can hit creature that is already frozen. Also frozen creature's antifreeze aura won't proc. To answer Ackshan, it's hard to do such test and to prove it, chances of doublefreeze hitting same slot both times is very small, hard to test. How many times you would have to test it in order to confirm that it never hits same slot twice? Furthermore since vampiric aura and antifreeze aura of frozen creature failed to work, it's safe to say all auras would fail to proc, including freeze aura of frozen creature. There are no indications that any aura would be exception to this rule. In ideal scenario one can field 8 freezes, which (can) come together with 9 antifreezes, this is freeze maxed ritual. Antifreeze maxed ritual brings in 15 antifreezes and 3 freezes. Since attacker can't unfreeze his creatures, he has no business in stackin antifreezes. Defender's choice is debatable. It's hard to say if it's better for him to have more freezes or antifreezes. If he has more freezes he will have greater chance to disable (some of) attacker's creatures, yet still having possibility of antifreeze. While with antifreezes, he would have less chances of disabling attacker's creature's thus attacker would be safer that way. With really good chances to unfreeze your his own creatures, defender doesn't necessarily benefit much, it depends on luck and how much stronger attacker is. It all depends on luck, what will attacker manage to freeze, it's totally unpredictable outcome to both sides. I'm not sure if this unpredictability is good or bad, but doesn't really fall into MD spirit of combat I think, where if you know how things work you are (should be) able to foresee the outcome. But how it works currently, freezes really affect the combat by even further removing tactics from it. Getting lucky with freezes is the most powerful thing in game and highly favors attacker. That is because you can in extreme circumstance freeze all 6 creatures of enemy thus fighting doesn't even happen. Another phenomena that should be noted, just like order of tokens then auras, where attacker's go first. Creats also seem to have order. If lets say one of defender's creature's avoids freeze and has antifreeze which manages to unfreeze one of other creatures. Of this newly unfrozen creature has auras, they might or might not work depending on order (or so I speculate). If unfrozen creature unfreezes creature that is ("should be", frozen creatures auras aren't displayed in logs) listed before the one that unfroze it, his aura's won't apply, if it was listed, later it probably would work. This needs to get tested, but ultimately changes very little regardless of outcome. One more thing to note here. That this affects a lot when it comes to skillvampire auras of SW. You need all 3 of them to gain the needed edge over stronger enemy. Basically if you can't field all 3 then they are pointless. If one of them gets frozen, same story. Your skillvampire tactic just became totally useless, it can't really be used against drachs, unless you get to add 5 freezes in such ritual and get very lucky. So this all started out by thinking how antifreezes were OP, now it turns out freezes are OP. I don't have any possible solutions to suggest at this moment.

Yeah combat is currently, lucky vs stats. Lets finish testing first :p

Oh my how I hate this freeze mechanics, so much weirdness. Here are preliminary news. According to performed tests, indeed it's true that frozen creature won't use it's auras. This means attacker has advantage since his auras go first. Antifreeze advantages of defender are thus questionable. In test reindrach froze the one of 6 priests in defense. Only 5 priest auras were applied. This does not fare well for antifreezes. It could still be possible that antifreezes could act as exception to the frozen aura rule, so we will test that just in case. So far things point out that I'll be agreeing with No one that freeze mechanics suck! New question, can freeze be applied to already frozen creature like it can be applied on empty slot? Basically doing a "miss"?

you explained it all :rolleyes:

Golemians are barely aware of theirs.

How much do things change from 4 fold to 8 fold balance? How would it be presented? If 4 fold is presented by circle and cross, does that mean that 8 fold looks like dharmachakra?

Windy, GG, rusty, rein, grasan, chaos, bloodpact, pimped. Nothing against creatures. edit: I forgot about SW

Rarity doesn't matter for target all, if target all is reworked, drachs isn't the only one at "loss". When comparing with other target all creatures, drach just has bunch of auras and a bit better stats. Specifically creatureboost and anti/freeze auras. His rarity value is evident in those things that give him the cut above the rest. Once target all is reworked, drach still stays at top of creature chain due to those advantages. Purpose is to make room in rituals for multiple viable creature combinations and 1 hit 6 kills prevents that.

16 - 5 sc

6 - 2sc 8 - 1sc 9 - 1sc(already bidded by me, mentioned for my own reference) 12 - 3sc 16 - 3sc

Still stats would prevail in such situation that Burns describes, only difference is that you could then steamroll with angiens too rather than just drachs.

Oh you were talking about his idea, rather than the current situation? Sorry I misunderstood it at first.

Yes that's what I understand so far, yet this is only case for defender, attacker can still get frozen.

Regarding Blooddrop2. As far as I remember it isn't, but I also remember something about blooddrop3 or 1 and initiative bonus. Currently I can't look up these information and point up things. Will let you know shortly. You have my initial input on your idea, I would still like to do tests to see if something was missed in current workings, if so then situation needs to be reassessed, maybe nothing needs to be changed in first place. But based on my initial knowledge of current situation, disregarding the new unconfirmed findings, I'm not sure change would be needed because I'm unsure if removing this advantage from defender is good or bad idea. Currently this advantage is the semi-luck factor that gives edge to defender against ulti rit. However that still leaves attacker's antifreeze useless. Some people like how it is, some don't and some don't like freeze idea at all. Lets wait first to see how situation develops after tests. (might take few hours or few days)

DD what you are saying, that's not how it works as far as I remember in tests with darky, but then again we weren't chasing that exact situation. Before further argue, I guess this needs some additional testing. You got freezes? I got antifreezes. Contact me so we can do some tests, I want to fully see it. So far I go by this: I also see claims that priest aura does not work due to freeze. I personally didn't notice that but I wasn't really looking into this exact situation. That means there's a lot of testing to do. Afterwards we will continue discussion on how it currently works. In Rophs suggestion, things change, even if currently frozen creature's auras don't work (which I doubt is currently the case), in his concept they don't stop working. Meaning frozen creature will still use it's aura's. Rophs you can also just skip step 3, if system already knows there are no frozen creatures left and if frozen creatures have priority in picking, then no point in doing loop on unfrozen creatures.

Yeah well I mean nothing is wrong with target 4-6, whole concept of those multirandom creatures is something I always find funny, but if they were to hit single creatures, there would be no point in single target. Yes I dislike idea that hitting multiple targets just simply multiplies the damage, I too think it should do less than full damage times number of creats. Such tweek would be nice and would be useful in fights with no stats/tokens. In high stats combat this tweek would depreciate the value of attack stat while appreciate the value of defense and ve stats. Still wouldn't change the target all supremacy on it's own. I like the formula and overall scaling, should it really be 75% that's debatable. It would mean nerf of 4 times. For example 80% is 3 times the nerf. If nerf is too big, then this concept also must be applied to multirandom, even if it's lower, people will probably still wonder where is the logic in multirandom scaling linearly while "All" has it lowered for each creature it hits.

Btw I forgot to mention that blooddrop2 gives 10% initiative bonus which isn't mentioned anywhere, not in shop nor token description. Better proposition would be that if freezes and antifreezes target only slots with creature in it without regards if it's frozen or not :p This would also remove it' second wind ability where hitting empty slot triggers another try. Problem with this idea at current state of game is that it basically means that antifreeze aura will always unfreeze creature in defense, enabling me to set defense with single drach on 100% and it would be unfrozen no matter what since antifreeze aura goes last, such defense would be so strong that only way to beat it would be to attack with 2 drachs on 100% and you having 2 times bigger stats (assumingly, too lazy to calculate creature boost for 2 drachs :D) than defender. It wouldn't fare well. No DD. It means that now attacker can counter freeze, currently he can't. Defender's antifreeze still goes after attacker's freeze. It's interesting idea, but it sort of nerfs defender's advantage. Attacker has advantage of combo as well as initiative (not initative stat) because he is the active one while defender is passive one, thus he would after probing defenses know what defender has and build counter ritual. (okay scratch that last one since currently such thing as One Ritual to Rule Them All exists, hence attacker doesn't need to probe and create counter ritual :D )

Good post Rophs. At first I didn't liked your suggestions, but after thinking it a bit over. I don't really see much problem with them. However Target 4-6 sounds so weird, it will hit 4, 5 or 6 creatures, but if there are 3 or less it will miss everything :)) sounds so weird. No I can't squash 3 bugs there are too few of them, I can't hit them, but if there are 4, sure I'll smack them all :)) There is problem with this, because it would be always picked. Freezes will guarantee it. If one goes with less than 4 creatures, he is going to get frozen thus target 4-6 would always hit because people would get surely frozen otherwise. It also adds luck effect, if other player has 6 creats and you aren't lucky enough to hit all 6 but hit 4 or 5 instead and kill them, your creature won't be able to target anymore, skipping it's turn, thus player is forced to still combine it with something, probably with same creature set on target 1-3. It's a good idea, important thing is that single creature loses ability to mop up full ritual in single blow at start of combat.

I'm thinking about what kind of downside could be applied to target All to lower it's convenience in totally killing everything in one blow yet still keeping it as "better" than rest. Some ideas for reworking target all: make it target up to 5 creatures at once make it target up to N-1 number of creatures as long as N is higher than 1 (in other words if there are 6 creatures it would target 5, if there are 3 creatures it would target 2, if there is one, it would target that one) make it less effective by nerfing the value of subsequent hits (for example first creature it hits takes full damage, second one gets 80%, third gets 60%, forth takes 40%, fifth and sixth take 20% of damage) but I doubt this solution would do much good or solve any problem of tactical usage, probably resulting into another luck factor between players of high stats

I - yes those should be the token information in question. Anti Freeze tokens to give it a chance against freezing attacks. - this one is wrong because it doesn't prevent freezing attacks Blood Drop Tokens ... or even unfreeze ability depending on token level and principles combination. - personally I don't like the word "ability" being used Antifreeze gives a chance for creature to escape freezing during combat - this is okay, depending how you take the word "freezing" it won't save you from the freeze aura II - good reminder, I sometimes confuse myself on this, and I even wrote wrong the part about tokens when I was replying to DD. order goes like this: attacker's tokens, defender's tokens, attacker's auras, defender's auras. III - Freeze doesn't affect the auras, auras will always work. Antifreeze will work, but it's targeting is random, it can hit same empty spot twice.