Ary Endleg

No to pimps, knators do that, pimps as difference to chaos have weaken def.

I'm not sure if it would be case Rophs. The more auragivers you put in ritual the fewer aura beneficiaries you have, in a ritual where 5 creatures are there just to provide auras, easier for me to get rid of you since freeze needs to land only on that one creature. Still this is debatable So... single ts? really? after creatboost or before? I want to know more about this, because it took me 3 SWs to drain that much stats. Does TS have higher aura values than SW? :huh:

That is one hell of a post No one, I like what you're saying, except unsure about tops. Tops should exist and be visible for devs so they can know what is OP and what is not. I'm not so sure if players should see that, since this is not combat-only game. I especially like loosing up the spoilers. Also this is design goal topic, rather than proposal topic :p meaning we are trying to define how should end result look like, what concepts should we stay true to and such stuff. Simply said, defining how to approach proposing changes for specific, joint outcome.

No DD, Skilldrain won't help you, I tested the drain with 3 maxed SW, if any of them doesn't get frozen, your creatures will have like 55%(if I remember correctly) of sum of all stats from both sides. Giving you slight advantage. SWs do have target all and that helps a bit. But you spent 3 slots to get slight edge only on stat difference. Drachs will still eat you out because of freezes, they also can use weaken def and if player has high stats in first place he also has high ve. Meaning you only got edge on terms of stats, while he still has more important advantage in all other fields, you probably won't be able to counter his second advantage, and if you do he still has 2 or 3 advantages that will make him win, it's ultimate ritual you are dealing against, SWs won't help you win. Now... one of your SWs gets frozen and you didn't gained any advantage you were expecting because freeze stopped your aura. Also in process of skill draining some stats will go poof :)) meaning opponent losses more than you gain from him, but final difference in stats is that you don't get too much of an edge. I - Mostly so. I think you can learn how auras are applied in order and thus try to put your more important ones last, so if that creature gets frozen, earlier antifreeze might help it. However, all this is speculation. Would need to test it all with DD :p II - as for vitalitydrain... urm... it's working quite fine I guess, but really there isn't much purpose in draining it with aura for annihilation combat, I guess it could work nicely with angiens when fighting high ve foe, assuming there are no freezes and that you hit first :)) vitalitydrain has however wide arsenal of other purposes in combat. Erm Rophs... now I'm no longer sure if creatboost/skilldrain respect aura order or does the skilldrain really go after all creatboosts, I was doing extensive tests on that with SWs but hell, I no longer remember. Somebody (re)test :)) It would be nice if it worked that way, but still freezes will ruin your day. I think that for starters freezes shouldn't affect auras :p

Rephrase?

Rophs was trying to say that why are pimps without creatureboost since all other premium damagers have it. I agree pimp is by itself very insignificant upgrade in world of high stats and tokens, besides they have shop stock of 4! That's just too much of supply, further devaluing them. I - debatable of all other "pending" changes on whole combat system. Currently I would still dispute it, many would disagree with me. II - Yes III - Unsure, probably changes to the templates in my current opinion, but generally I still do think that regardless of I and II it should be limited as Burns suggested. IV - This is very problematic thing, because by lowering the amount of archer in ritual it would affect LR archers too because they are same family. Lore archers are in my opinion doing fine with limit of 4, lowering archers to 3 would for lores be bad nerf. Might be better to lower the value of creatboost on bloodpacts. Morale is quite nice thing actually. I'm not sure anymore if works only on normal aramors, if yes then it's useless, but if it applies to all creatures in ritual, it's a very nice thing. However using 4 slots for imps just means you will succumb to freezes, hence not used.

When you say object... does it has to be existing inventory item or can I pick for instance... fenths press altar? I'm saying does it has to be inventory thing or can it be object seen inside scene?

Pretty much. It doesn't bother me that you went to harvesting. I was just very surprised that you defend status quo this much while your actions show disinterest. Nothing special. So regardless what it be done, drachs would become lvl2 grasans? When I say any kind of change, I'm referring to infinite possibilities :p not just the brainstormed ideas present in this topic. Well there is no solid solution made yet, there is critic about current workings and there are brainstormed ideas. Sure showing their bad parts are welcome, that's what is going on in here, brainstorming some ideas/drafts for possible changes, speaking them up, seeing what others think, what can be improved, is there better idea around, etc. Nobody is yet convincing anyone, I'm mainly rising the awareness of rotten parts of system and trying to find ways to solve the problem, while actually coming up with real solution for implementation is very distant, but if we manage it would be welcoming thing. So far your initial yelling "this is junk, this sucks" wasn't too much helpful, hopefully it becomes more constructive as it seems it will. First each feature has to be broken down individually and properly inspected, then possible remedies are to be sought for it, then it should be incorporated to big picture canvas along with other features and their remedies. Only then we will know what really should get changed and in what way. That's why we went to this multiple topic split from Combat Talk, currently there are only 2 but more topics are inbound. Two posts above (my big post) where it says: "We are going offtopic..." from that you can see my motives. In short, betterment of the game. I'm well aware that such things won't solve anything, reset would, in best scenario only repeat everything that has happened so far, in worst, it would purge the game of players. Everything inbetween would be one big crawl of misery. I would love so much if I could come up with something as such from out of the blue. This is ultimate goal, it takes a lot of discussions and analyzing. Additional difficulty is that we are attempting to come up with tweek of an already existing system rather than new one. I'll hopefully test this out. I'm upset on what you seem to think is the reason for me talking about this changes, my butt getting kicked, it's not. Explained above. I'm not sure how would that book item help me with anything, I'm not equipped with damagers at the moment so that 1m attack wouldn't help me, feel free to elaborate your point around the book, I don't plan on growing damagers before xmas. What is this change of mine that is so bad which you keep indirectly referring to? I only recall saying that target all should get nerfed, didn't specified any change yet. I did comment on some by other players, I also did point out some possible ideas asking for comments on them, but not anything properly written. For example Rophs made elaborate proposal which didn't go good. Hence I have to conclude that you are saying that idea of changing target all in any way is terrible thing, or? Rophs that sounds good, but if it's going outside the bounds of this topic (which it should), it should have topic of it's own upon which all new ideas would be based. It would be good start to nail down root MD's combat concepts, such as balance and so on. Sidenote, I wanted to again address why I still think that target all is problem rather than how Burns puts it "combination of freezes and stats", but I forgot what I wanted to say :/

Umm I notice that Eagle Eye is missing as Loreroot Judge.

No no no guys, when it comes to victories that 10% counts for heals to, meaning you need to either lose 10% or heal 10%, description is wrong. So it could also be that Sheath Balance description is wrong too, but in a way that it misses quite important information. Because up there in my examples 100% vs -36% ended up in sheath balance while 100% vs -78% resulted in only sheath. That means Sheath Balance doesn't have same problem as Sword Balance. What you Burns say ofc seems true for some cases but still when you compare my example I just mentioned from my first post, it doesn't hold true. (you need to click links for logs and 2 additional images) example #2 and #3. 100% and -36% is 136% difference in amounts of damage each sides inflicted. That was properly given Sheath Balance. However outcome is written in same manner since in both cases I'm attacker. This second case is 100% and -78% making it 178% difference. I'm not so convinced it's problem in coded formula. Either way you put it should end with proper difference being calculated if subtraction is used. I'm still unsure if this is bug or not, hence no bug report yet. I'm still hoping that somebody comes in and tells me that I did bad math on priest aura or that I missed something else :))

I agree in here. We can't go back and fix the mistakes done for sake of survival, we can't take away those paid stats and creatures, we could however somehow rework the system to make it suit for everybody, still letting payers have advantages but reducing them to manageable level. In scenarios imagined in past of 100 stats being almost unreachable, target all probably isn't an issue, but we don't have that now. So introducing some smart, well though, reviewed change to system is best option. If not changing target all, and by saying that stats are issue, what else can be done? Removing stats would be bad, introducing some sort of relative/logarithmic value to stats? I'm not sure how would that work. Sooner or later something will have to get changed or else this will always be game for 50 players where 40 do RP. Yes sort of. But it would be good thing because this guy wouldn't have 100% win/success on everything, we would still need to read opponent and apply according ritual. Giving "weaklings" a chance of like 5% to win against such player by their tactical skills (and some effort, rather than just freeze-luck with creats that are still super rare) is super great achievement and great motivator. This can fare great lengths of beneficial outcomes for game. That guy would still be both beatable and yet he would be supreme player.

I quoted in first post the ingame description of sheath balance, so did DD in posts above. So if you understood that I was wondering about not receiving loss, I still don't understand what it has anything to do with heat losing you mentioned earlier? I'm unallied MP5 and my current ratio is 2525 - 2615. At time of posting the original post I was somewhere near the balance, also unallied and also MP5

Pretty much true. I made such an "invalid" scenario for a purpose of displaying supremacy of target all against other targeting mechanisms for damage ability only, since it was discussed. It's obvious that this is not a real environment. my purpose was to create equal ground to show that chaos/grasan isn't balanced to lore/knator, they merely have different purposes, yet nobody is using knators. In my example I said all sides start with equal VE, for damage purpose that's all it matters. I can go nitpicking too, you know. If I was to depict your example in same manner, equal ve wouldn't be enough of descriptor because if it's low enough, damagers would still win the day against lifestealers, while against aimed hit that defense would still be not enough to stop maxed drach from eating that archer due to enough superior attack stat and higher level. Also you're forgetting weaken defense something that almost all damagers come with and what will stack into negative and make your lifestealer and archer cry. So no, target all is still superior even in your "invalid" example. I agree with stats. Well this "nothing else" is still magically more powerful than everything else. As for your scenarios, your argument would be valid if one was forbidden to combine all that into single ritual. Where is the weakness to exploit in this scenario? Oppoenent has twice amount of your ve and stats, he's using 8 freezes drach ritual. How do you counter it and win? This makes a hell lot of a difference. Many things can happen in 6 rounds, you at least get to ACT, with target all it's simply Round 0: Drach kills everything, game over. Other side gets to do nothing. Yes I agree freezes are bigger problem, if for example freezes would be removed, it would "allow multiple" rituals to be made on top level, it would be dance about which and how many creatures should do weaken and which and how many should do damage. Of course only problem is that 1-crit rituals would have all stats stuffed and it would still be wipe for opponent. One creature shouldn't be allowed to kill everything before other player gets to do anything at all. That's my problem. What if target all forbids creature to act in Round 0? Not really, weaken defense and damage, it falls down to how much ve is in play too, if there aren't huge amounts of ve in play, target all weaken will apply more weaken than your trees would boost def, also you would be burning down that ve for boosting def, also lifestealers can't kill. It would have to be over 100k ve in such fight for you to win, if less you would die. But if you null all stats it should also mean that VE is nulled. Only creature ve won't be enough for you to win in such fight. @No one. IF you weren't narrow sighted on that matter then tell me how come the only scenario you came up with is that "I'm weak crybaby" and hence I want change, really out of all possibilities you saw only that one and built insults upon. So yes narrow sighted. Weak, pretty much, discouraged, not. Thanks for pointing it out, I wasn't clear in my previous post. I was implying in there 6 creat ritual on both sides, chaos/grasan mix on one side and lore/knator on other. This is irrelevant. All you mention should only give advantage and shouldn't provide autowin. No matter how hard one works and how much invests irl, even if he doesn't do single mistake ever, others still have ability and opportunity to outsmart him and bring him down, eventually somebody will. MD as game has dark future in matters of combat. We are going offtopic now but still I'll say it. In each and every "free" game (All those games eventually failed their existance in quite short term.) that has combat like MD where there is no cap and where spending a lot of money and having years of "veterancy" gives one ultimate edge. This edge goes so far that others can't touch said person. This is wrong, because players will see that the only way they can catch up is to invest two thousand dollars and grind for 5 years, something that turns fun from game into frustration. Such system supports only "whales" and is built upon them. Life of game is dependent on people who are high up in combat and are spending tons of cash to stay there, also known as "whales". Their gaming experience is based on either bashing the weaker players or helping them with their superiority. Such behavior from game makers isn't moral, they drain up on those few individuals. Such concept is unsustainable in game development. Of course there are few of those donators who donate and don't fight, simply because they want to support the game. Combat like this provides zero player retention, grinders could eventually get bored and quite or show up only here and there, "weaklings" see it as no point so they quit on it. This leads to RP and friends being the only thing that keeps players inside the game. If this game lacked RP that it has, because of how combat is working, MD would stop existing years ago. Yet monetization from RP part is existent, while people rarely fight. Sure we can stay with combat as it is, I don't mind really. I just feel it's a waste that most complex and vast thing in whole game is barely used in comparison to some other, way simpler things. Sure you can argue how paying to have ultimate weapon is fair just like working for it for 10 years. But such thing is bad for newcomers. Setting proper tutorial is first step, to make more players properly introduced and interested about game. Eventually they will learn how fighting works and be repulsed by combat. Combat offers next to no player retention. If you market the game as free2play yet have such an important part of game as pay2win, you are essentially telling half-truths. I see that you No one are very grateful to all those people who donate a lot and keep the game up and running. Yet you too mostly retreat yourself to your activity of resource gathering. Is it asking that they lower themselves from "ultimate supreme" to just "superior" too much? Is it ethically correct towards donors that they keep donating piles of cash and reaping rewards from it just for their combat activity, while other people are mostly playing other part of game? I haven't yet made any solid proposal for change, I've just said that how it currently works is bad. This whole time I'm see you resisting to any kind of change, rather than any specific suggestion other than Rophs'. Basically what you are saying currently is that any kind of change would turn all those creatures into absolute junk, worse than lvl1 aramor. If you are simply against any kind of change then say so, rather than saying "all you propose..". If not then maybe try making suggestion on how to add some weakness to it while still keeping it on top of food chain, that is something I'm trying to do in here, yet you keep undermining my efforts. Reply to this should be covered somewhere above. Again, I'm not upset on anyone, you keep making false speculations about my motives. Yes and? This just points out and supports the fact that current system is bad and that nothing was done about it to restrain it back to how it was meant to be.

Your narrow sighted speculations are becoming insultive. You should get your facts straight about me before making such statement. Basically you are against people with low stats to speak about flaws of system because your short minded perspective is only capable of seeing that when people talk about flaws of system it's because they ain't doing well in such system. Something that isn't true in this case. You should refrain from making such insultive "comments", it's quite in the range of cyber bullying, you are just trolling the topic and asking for actions from mods. Back on discussion. They are supposed to be stronger as you say it, but can't such strength be at more acceptable level? Can there be some way to counter that strength? Can it have some sort of weakness or disadvantage? Lets assume scenario where we have stats, tokens, everything same, except creatures. You are packed with target all damagers, while I got something else, while everything else is same. Now tell me No one, why in this system I'm only allowed to out-hit you with higher stats or bust you in with luck on freezes. Why am I not allowed to OUTSMART you by making cunning choice of creatures/abilities that would exploit weakness in your ritual. Currently you can make ritual without tactical weaknesses, that's where I think the problem is. I could even go further to prove it, lets imagine that stats don't exist, everybody has 0. Moreover lets say ALL creatures have same stats, same attack, defense, power, luck, regen and ve. Also lets remove auras and tokens for this test environment. Only thing differing are their abilities. In such environment ritual packed with target All creatures would still reign supreme with no remedy. I simply don't agree that this type of ultimate tactical advantage should exist. You keep saying that they have edge, sure let them have edge over others but leave some weak spot. No grasan and chaos aren't balanced with knator and lore archer. They might look balanced stat-vise, but their superior target all ability wins the day and also has much greater scalability with stats.

3 - 5 sc

What? I get this feeling that in every second of your posts, there is something you misunderstood or didn't read fully.... What about heat draining? We ain't talking about that in here. What do you mean by that? 128% difference should be enough for sheath balance. My win-loss is near balance, I'm not loss capped, I should be getting sheath balance yet I don't. Again, nobody is talking about changing anything in here, this is posted in questions forum, I'm looking for explanation why sheath balance wasn't gained. That is the only issue here, I don't see how heat losing is connected to me not gaining sheath balance. Can you clarify your post?

:( much sadness 1 sc for remains then

3 - 2sc 5 - 2sc

If you use browser zoom, text would enlarge and it would go into second line thus enabling you to view it.

That's what I was thinking, that some things like angien self-damage, priest aura, ve token boost don't count. But example #2 doesn't have those, while example #3 does similarly like example #1 yet #3 gives sheath balance while #1 doesn't. That's why I posted :p But due note that in example #1 although she had only priests, nothing else did damage to me and she did got sword balance, so I'm unsure why would it count for wins and not for losses. *shrugs*

No matter the effort of developers, bug section will always have highest percentage of topics when compared to other forums. (it has more topics than general forum!) If discussion in any topic can go astray, it will. If something is working as it should and without any problems on it's own, once you put it into bigger picture it will inevitably break everything else. After spending whole day of walking back to civilization, your dear slave-master or protector will teleport you to the middle of nowhere or to the edge of world. Without any particular reason other than just "because"!

One of those things are wrong. Either I should have gained sheath balance in image below or description for sheath balance is wrong. At link "Balancing fights" to the right of the chat it says this. (PS link has typo because it's written baLLancing) Reality is that this doesn't always apply. In above example I was defender and Intrigue attacked me. She healed by 90% and I took 38% damage. That's difference of 128% and I should be getting sheath balance. Check full log here. In new scenario I was attacker. Same thing, I took 100% damage, she healed by 73%. Difference is 173% and again only sheath. (why export logs don't have outcome percentages?) Screenshot of outcome percentages. In this fight there was no priests like in first, so priest strangeness is ruled out. Another example. Image. This time difference is 136% and I do get sheath balance. So can anybody tell me what's going on? Why sometimes it gives sheath balance and sometimes not if though the requirements for it are satisfied?

Windy already has creatboost or is the value lower? Also, by lowering number of drachs in ritual you slow down the grinding :D When you throw double rein with gg you also get rein doing weaken defense, with 1/6th of your stats (if you have high stats) or 1/3rd or between, depending on how many creats are used and % influences. Both reins will hit with their weaken before gg does damage, because reins have higher base init, effectively boosting yet again the damage of gg.

That practically translates into remove freeze aura from drachs :)) Since Bird is pretty much all about single freeze coupled with some boosting and Snowman is all about doublefreeze, the only one to go lose it is drach :P yet it would only lower amount of freezes from 8 to 7. However, snowman and bird have no antifreeze and they also are unable to do damage, meaning if 6th creature in such ritual gets frozen it ends up as lost fight. But I doubt people would go maximazing freezes inside ritual if it means lowering the amount of drachs, so this might work. Any other ideas how to lower amount of freezes or how to rework this?