Citizenship and kings

[Firsanthalas]

On the thread about the Sentinels being binned some of us broached the fact that Jester no longer seems to be a citizen of his land.

The thread was closed for going offtopic. Fair enough if I went offtopic, I apologise. However, I believe the point stands, so I am bringing it up here to discuss it in it's own right.

[quote]closed, you guys all went offtopic. Who cares if Jester isnt part of his land, Its his citizens to worry about, if they indeed care.[/quote]

On your view that it is only for Jester's citizens to worry about Chewy, I totally disagree. You or anyone else can say that Loreroot is sticking their nose in. However, my comments are made on the basis of being a player, regardless of land affiliation and as a king in general. And I resent such remarks by the way. I thought that you had to be a citizen of a land to run for election. If this is not the case, then I feel it should be. I also feel that it is inappropriate and doesn't make much sense for a king/queen to change citizenship while still being king/queen.
There may be a particular reason for this. I am quite happy to say that there are alliances/guilds like the Kelletha Order for instance, that a king/queen may feel they have a valid reason to join (for a purpose). However, I believe that there should be some kind of explanation for it, even if the exact specific cannot be given.

I will also point out that I have no hidden motive or agenda for this. I've had no argument with jester and there is no reason for me or Loreroot to want him removed or whatever other fanciful reason people might come up with. If Handy or Yrthilian did this I'd be asking the same thing. This is about kings/queens and the way in which they work in MD.

It has been said that Loreroot wants to start a war and also that Jester doesn't want to be king. That's other people putting words in mouths as far as I am concerned.

So, do people think that it is appropriate for kings/queens to change their citizenship? And if you do, would you set any restrictions or requirements at all?

Edited July 15, 2011 by Firsanthalas

[Yrthilian]

I was going to post something long but you know what i dont give a crap any more.

people can do what they like and it does not matter some do things and the ones that started it start moaning
what is the point

oh and to stay on topic i agree with firs

Edited July 15, 2011 by Yrthilian

[Granos]

Kudos to you Firs for this post, but as a point to all the people making comments in regards to Jester and his Kingship and/or his views/goals in such an action before saying or assuming something actually [b][i][u]TALK[/u][/i][/b] to him.
It never ceases to amaze me regardless the situation in MD how much nonsense that can be avoided by people simply talking to others...

As for the actual question, it may seem biased coming from me, but yes it should be acceptable, to a degree. As for actual restrictions on this well I do not believe that there really could be a generalized rule for something like this and it literally would have to be taken into account situation by situation. As for the actually reasoning I will say nothing on it as it is not my place to do so or anyone else in the Seal of Six other than Jester himself. (So yeah stop asking, you know who you are...)

[Sharazhad]

[i][color="#2e8b57"]What surprises me is how quickly people want to sweep this under the carpet. "So a King changed citizenship...no big deal..." Or at least that's the impression that I am getting. If Firs, Handy or Yrth did this, there would be a huge outcry! Im surprised that there isn't one now. And the people that do question it are getting slapped on the wrist. Feels like a bit of a dictatorship.... or a bit of frat club. [/color][/i]

[Seigheart]

Jester just needs to explain his reasoning, give him a chance before you hang him.

[Kafuuka]

You might be able to expect a big commotion with tears, fears, swears and whatnot, arriving within two hours. You should NOT want it though. All in all people seem, so far and according to posts and reps, to be in favour of Firs' statement... There is no need, no logical reason to compare to what if it was another person. It'd make you look like a sore looser, only you haven't "lost" yet.

On topic. It is mechanically difficult to be part of two structures right now. You cannot be in two alliances at once, even if that would 'make sense' from a perspective as spies, diplomats or just busy jack of all trades. I'm certain lots of people wanted to be able to join two at once. Apparently kings, mechanically and currently, can be part of two structures. It's not something I'd encourage, for many reasons, but I wouldn't be so attached to what might be a by-product of joining an alliance.

[Udgard]

[quote name='Firsanthalas' timestamp='1310736165' post='87981']
So, do people think that it is appropriate for kings/queens to change their citizenship? And if you do, would you set any restrictions or requirements at all?
[/quote]
Appropriate? I can't really say yes but it's not an outright no either.
It is certain to cause people to wonder, and a person on such an important position such as a king/queen should do their best not to choose a course of action that would hurt the credibility of their government (and consequentially, the land itself). But as far as restrictions/requirements go, as long as the majority of the citizens have no problem with what their king/queen is doing, then there should be no problem as far as the others are concerned. If the citizens thinks it's such a huge problem that their king/queen being a citizen of another land, that's what the rebel feature is for and the people will get to choose a monarch they prefer better. If not, so be it.

[Chewett]

I might be very surprised if handy joined necrovon, or somethink akin, But anyone knowing jester knows he moves in mysterous ways. He hasnt joined another main land, and probably has a very intresting or good reason.

As Granos has pointed out, Why post it up and cause a commotion? Surely talking to him would resolve your issue?

He is a king, he can do what he wants. Necrovon is a rather more chaotic land than as i mentioned Before MB, it wouldnt fit if someone like handy went off and did similar, But to me, knowing necro, it kinda fits.

[BFH]

[quote name='Granos']Kudos to you Firs for this post, but as a point to all the people making comments in regards to Jester and his Kingship and/or his views/goals in such an action before saying or assuming something actually [b][i]TALK[/i][/b] to him.[/quote]

Talking to Jester should had been the first thing to do instead of taking conclusions out of nowhere. . I can't agree more.
[quote name='Chewett' timestamp='1310756627' post='88002']
He is a king, he can do what he wants. Necrovion is a rather more chaotic land than as i mentioned Before MB, it wouldnt fit if someone like handy went off and did similar, But to me, knowing necro, it kinda fits.
[/quote]

Indeed I agree.

[Ravenstrider]

All in favor of Firs joining Necrovion and then rebelling say Aye!

I need a Che to my Castro... or a Raul... Firs strikes me more as a Raul fellow, I think.





On the case at hand: Why couldn't Jester be a citizen of a different land? The game mechanics make it possible without loosing kingship, so I believe it's not on us to judge what the Mighty Mur hath made possible... Alelujah!

There's a common answer to the question "Why did you do that?" in my country and it goes: "So Fools may wonder..." I believe this is a good answer to the question why Jester might have done this...

[Nimrodel]

@Granos and BFH: I don't see your point. Is it wrong to post stuff in the forum Or ask people about their decisions publicly? I'm sure it'd be best to talk in here so that Jester doesn't have to reply to every PM he gets bout his citizenship status. As far as I can see, a lot of people want to know.

@Chewett: There are people who've branded Loreroot as chaotic. Veterans. Would you have expected the same of Firs? For instance, Him becoming a part of MDA or something like that?

@Ravenstrider: Lovely to hear that from a guy who got bored and rebelled against his king.

[Chewett]

[quote name='Nimrodel' timestamp='1310762836' post='88013']
@Chewett: There are people who've branded Loreroot as chaotic. Veterans. Would you have expected the same of Firs? For instance, Him becoming a part of MDA or something like that?
[/quote]

I believe they were being rude.

And yes, and no, i would not expect firsen to do something akin, for he is very much a part of loreroot. Rooted to the spot so to say. Loreroot is more like a brotherhood to me, groups of friends ganging together helping themselves.

[Firsanthalas]

[quote]Jester just needs to explain his reasoning, give him a chance before you hang him. [/quote]

My intention is not to 'hang' Jester. This hasn't been discussed before and I don't believe it breaks any rules as such. I am just asking if perhaps it should?
And if it is, then Jester can just return to Necro or give whatever reasons he feels fit. It is not so much about the individual (in this case Jester) as it is about the situation.

While this is not the case with this particular scenario, please consider another possible one. A king joins an alliance in another king's land. i.e., I join the Tainted Warriors. Technically that would make Jester my king and therefore technically he'd be the ruler of Loreroot as well as Necrovion. Why?, because he'd be my king and I'd be bound by his laws, therefore the law of Necrovion. Extreme maybe, but possible by the looks of things.

Edited July 15, 2011 by Firsanthalas

[xrieg]

[quote name='Udgard' timestamp='1310750711' post='87995']
(...)as long as the majority of the citizens have no problem with what their king/queen is doing, then there should be no problem as far as the others are concerned. If the citizens thinks it's such a huge problem that their king/queen being a citizen of another land, that's what the rebel feature is for and the people will get to choose a monarch they prefer better. If not, so be it.
[/quote]
I fully agree with Udgard. Necrovion is sovereign land and it seems that it does shock/repells NV citizens much less than it shocks all others.... Meaning - not really even internal problem and certainly not one to require external involvement.

LE (after reading post below): as a general case I think no new regulations is required. Monarchs know their land/ subjects... and some can join neutral lands alliances without risking rebellion - and some can expect their subject to consider assuming external citizenship.. disloyal

Edited July 15, 2011 by xrieg

[Kyphis the Bard]

I see nothing wrong at all with making this topic, nor the initial post. This event occurred quite some time ago, and clearly most people are still wondering what is going on from the responses to this topic.

That said, I do agree with Granos, the best way to handle this is to simple talk to him to see if he is willing to tell you why he did it. Knowing Jester, I doubt most of you will get a response, but also, knowing Jester, and Granos, there is probably a pretty good reason for this to be happening.

Again, that said, this topic, to me, seems more about the general question "should kings/queens be able to join alliances of other lands", and useing Jester as a case study, rather than trying to nitpick and say Jester is being a bad king for doing that, blahblahblah.

In my opinion, it is perfectly acceptable for kings/queens to join any of the other NON-main lands. If they have not told their citizens why, or the citizens don't trust their leaders decision to do so, they run the risk of rebellion. But that is only their citizens choice to make, and, honestly, they don't owe anyone else other than Mur an explanation.
That said, while I think it is, and should be, acceptable, I don't like it and it doesn't sit right with me.

Edited July 15, 2011 by Kyphis the Bard

[Metal Bunny]

I don't see the problem here on the side of Firs' side, simply because joining an alliance is possible, without formally joining the alliance.
Indyra for instance, holds a noteworthy position inside the GG alliance, even though she is the head of the guild.
In this sense, being the head of a guild, and not being in the GG alliance and then delegating tasks to the other guild members, shows her priorities, but also her preferences, both of which are highly compatible.
She is guild leader first, then a warrior part of the GG alliance. Only when a conflict of interest would arise, would she choose for the guild, but since this will most likely not happen in the short and mid term future, it delivers us no headaches.

Now, there is always the possibility that Jester or the alliance never contemplated that people could still be part of an alliance, while formally not being so.
But since the bonus from the alliance in stats, alliance chat and alliance leader jump and alliance invite, are things that are not at all that very important, it should be a simple possibility.
The more important things, such as access to alliance forum and thus inclusion to, oh I don't know, everything the alliance is about, are not dependent upon actually being part of the alliance in the first place.

Another example, I help protect bob and have access to the forum section for bob, but I don't want to join Bob's alliance, simply because I wish to show that my priority and preference lies with GG first and then with bob. However, it is a wonderful combination and I see no conflict of interest arising.

What Jester is doing however, by becoming a citizen of another country first, he is showing the 'wrong' kind of priority or preference, as to what 'should be expected' of a monarch.
As Firs stated earlier, in this scenario it becomes quite likely that conflicts of interest can show up quite quickly; is Jester a vassal, since he must obey the laws of another land, making all other Necrovions vassals as well?

Then again, I haven't heard from Jester yet, so maybe he didn't realize that you can be part of an alliance, while formally not actually joining them.

[Pipstickz]

[quote name='Metal Bunny' timestamp='1310774224' post='88025']
What Jester is doing however, by becoming a citizen of another country first, he is showing the 'wrong' kind of priority or preference, as to what 'should be expected' of a monarch.
As Firs stated earlier, in this scenario it becomes quite likely that conflicts of interest can show up quite quickly; is Jester a vassal, since he must obey the laws of another land, making all other Necrovions vassals as well?
[/quote]
First off, saying he "shows the wrong priority" is assuming his priority, is that really fair? I can say Firs shows priority on drawing attention away from Loreroot's screw-ups, rather than trying to fix them, by making this topic, but that's unfair to him, because I don't KNOW his priorities, and he hasn't openly stated them (not saying there are screw-ups, just making an example).

Secondly, do YOU see some Tribunal laws that I don't? Because I AM a citizen, I think you should direct me to them as soon as possible.

Thirdly, the Tribunal may have a "king" of sorts, who also happens to be the only one who could literally force Jester to leave the alliance (other than myself, I suppose, because I am loyalty leader), so do you not think he would have shown some interest in this issue? This is, of course, assuming he's noticed it.

Also sort of side-note, I do believe Mur has mentioned a connection between the Tribunal and Necrovion, has he not? Something to ponder for those who care, even if my memory's wrong.

Edited July 16, 2011 by Pipstickz

[Metal Bunny]

I knew that when I was about to go to bed, that I should've continued the line of thought that started with 'but I haven't heard from Jester about this yet', but hey, this is the internet, so go ahead pip .

Besides that, you are doing the exact same thing on your last part; assuming that the link between the Tribunal and Necrovion, simply because Mur said so, somehow validates him leaving as a citizen and becoming one of another land. Seeing as how this is the internet, I will ignore your 'something to ponder' and 'even if my memory is wrong'.
I will ignore it, because that is how internet arguments go.

Seriously, Granos said it before, why would I have to repeat it again pip?
Does every post have to end with, 'Let's hear from Jester first', just so that we can all be certain that no one overlooked this fundamentally important thing?
C'mon, I don't want to go offtopic and I usually only want to write /new/ things on a topic. Well, I say usually, but annoying you is funny too.

So let me please use this opportunity to end with the words; 'But let's hear from Jester first.'

*Cough*

[Metal Bunny]

Now we're just annoying other people with 2 of our offtopic comments, lol.

Moderators, feel free to remove pip's. Not mine though


To at least keep a semblance of on-topic-ishness. Anyone got any idea if Jester will even deign to respond to all of this?

[Guest]

Firsanthalas, as a King, has every right to bring any question regarding Kingship up in the forum.

However, the statements of others which imply that everybody has a right to know what Jester is doing. I don't believe this is true.

The people who have been the most vocal seem to be the Lorerootians, so I will use Firsanthalas as an example.. imagine Firsanthalas was doing something. Imagine he had made a decision which would result in something beneficial but to do this he has to do something innovative and seemed unusual from the outside and he did not want to announce anything to anyone. He keeps his citizens informed and is careful not to compromise them. If citizens from other lands started posting wild sweeping statements about the situation and started demanding answers.. would the same people commenting on the two threads about this subject support Firsanthalas and tell everyone that it was Loreroot's business or would they post and let everyone know exactly what he was doing?

Discuss the technicalities of a King joining an alliance in another of the three main lands by all means, but please.. credit Jester with some intelligence.


(p.s. Bunny, why should Jester respond to this? It's become ridiculous)

[Fyrd Argentus]

Seems to me that abdicating citizenship should automatically be considered abdication of a throne. There ought to be elections, or whatever it is necrovions use to put a new dictator on the throne.

You can't join an alliance without being the right citizenship - how can alliance membership be held to a higher standard than the kingship?

Can a non-citizen BECOME a king?

Shouldn't this whole thread be under the BUG section?

Edited July 16, 2011 by Fyrd Argentus

[Granos]

[quote name='Fyrd Argentus' timestamp='1310817754' post='88060']

Can a non-citizen BECOME a king?

[/quote]

He is already king, also let me point you to the first Marind Bell Election and the First Necrovion election.
Shadowseeker and Pipstickz both ran for Marind Bell Kingship both not actually being citizens of the land, then in the Only Necrovion election Liberty ran for King in order to "annex" the land. (Or something equally interesting...)

You can look for it in the announcements.

Stop making assumptions and stick to what the topic is about. Do you believe kings can be part of more than one land, etc... (read the first post as I am not going to spoon feed people to lazy to read.)

As another note if anyone consider's Mur to be king of the Tribunal (which he is not) He is also part of two lands, Lands of the East and the Archives, as he acquires active days for both simultaneously... Just something else to add for people who were not aware of this... Which to me some what would prove that this is indeed possible, therefore should not really be an issue.

[Guest]

A non citizen "may not" be able to become King, but a King may use whatever is at his or her disposal, as long as it does not compromise their citizens, for the sake of what they perceive as advancement. This is a highly unusual situation, yes.. but knee jerk reactions without fully understanding every time something unusual happens in MD would be detrimental to the advancement of the community as a whole.

As a Tribunal citizen, I have no formal lands rules to follow except that I have sworn allegiance to the governing Demon, Mur. As a king, Jester also has such an alliegance to Mur, so there is no conflict of interest in that regard.

[Pipstickz]

[quote name='Pipstickz' timestamp='1310798438' post='88045']
Also sort of side-note, I do believe Mur has mentioned a connection between the Tribunal and Necrovion, has he not? Something to ponder for those who care, even if my memory's wrong.
[/quote]
[url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/8557-tribunal-updates/page__view__findpost__p__74064"]This is probably what I was thinking of, in case anybody's wondering.[/url]

[Curiose]

My two cents: I HAVE spoken with Jester. So my commentary was not out of line, thank you very much.