Is this allowed?

[Pipstickz]

So, I believe it's been three weeks in a row now, almost all of the heat jars from Kelle'tha have gone to an empty aramor. Considering the time span it was accomplished in (18:50:19 - 19:16:59), it could not be somebody who took 40 AP to move, so in my eyes it can either be somebody with shiny powers, which would explain the lack of names in the item logs, or one or more GG citizens trying to keep public items from the public, which would explain why one single jar found its way into Kiley's inventory, while the rest went to this aramor. Either way, the one(s) partaking in such action is in the very least morally reprehensible, if not blatantly breaking 'rules' pertaining to shared items as stated here:

[quote]
[b]All shared items have been returned to their original place.[/b]
Go grab your favorite tool and engoy it till the next regroup. Try avoiding cauldron type items just before this regrouping takes place as they will regroup even if they are in use. Item keep some of the modified values on regrouping. [u]You should not use alts to store multiple shared items and you should not hoard them, these items are meant to be used by many people not hoarded by a few.[/u] Item regrouping happens on every Tuesday, 04:15 on odd dates and 16:15 on even dates of the month, Server Time[/quote]

I am asking whoever is doing this to step forward and tell me and the community, and if that does not happen, then we'll just see.

Here's a screenshot of the logs themselves, if anybody's curious.
[url="http://storenow.net/my/?f=3403"]http://storenow.net/my/?f=3403[/url]

Might as well mention that if this were a GG citizen, they would be violating at least two of the land laws:
[quote][size=3][size=3][b]To respect and return the property of the land[/b][/size][/size][/quote]
This is, in fact, doing the exact opposite, it is making the 'property' of the land useless.

[quote][size=3][b][size=3]To be an ambassador for the land[/size][/b][/size][/quote]
In doing this you basically give anyone who makes the arduous trek through GG or the maze with the one purpose of obtaining an item that there should be more than enough of a big old slap in the face.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Pipstickz

[ERO]

good poit Pip...last week happend the same...

[Mallos]

If you really want to find out who did it, try to find who's ID is 169283. Watch the triggers box, or just start casting spells on all the Golemus citizens until the right one comes up.

Or try to use other clues, like how do the logs get to be like that (with the blanked out info)? Is there anyone clearing the chat in Tempest Fort? Or look at the times it was done then see who was around there next time if they do it again.

[Mighty Pirate]

To answer the initial question: Yes, it is allowed.

BTW, you don't have to walk through the maze or Golemus to get a heat jar. The Fusioneers will be happy to assist all who need our service. There is a price list in the forum and for those who can't afford we will find other ways to get a heat jar or heat stones.

[Pipstickz]

[quote name='Falronn' timestamp='1320822297' post='95498']
If you really want to find out who did it, try to find who's ID is 169283. Watch the triggers box, or just start casting spells on all the Golemus citizens until the right one comes up.

Or try to use other clues, like how do the logs get to be like that (with the blanked out info)? Is there anyone clearing the chat in Tempest Fort? Or look at the times it was done then see who was around there next time if they do it again.
[/quote]
Good point, happens to be Mighty Pirate's ID.

Mighty Pirate: Care to explain yourself further than your blatant advertising?

[Mighty Pirate]

[quote name='Pipstickz' timestamp='1320823522' post='95500']
Mighty Pirate: Care to explain yourself further than your blatant advertising?
[/quote]

Perhaps, if you ask politely.

[Udgard]

Huh? I thought shared tools can't be transferred via "give item". Have I gotten it wrong, or could someone enlighten me how you could give a shared tool to an empty aramor? Just curious.

And to answer the initial question: no, I don't think using other accounts to store shared items is allowed.

[Pipstickz]

I could open a court case instead of asking if you'd prefer.

[Shemhazaj]

[i][color=#808080]quote from an announcement:[/color][/i]

[color=#CCCCCC]Ann. 1997 - [2011-08-23 04:43:50 - Stage 11][/color]
[quote]Do not hoard shared tool and do not use alts to store multiple tools of dame type. These items are meant to be used by as many people as possible so if you don't plan on using them let them there for others to try. [/quote]

[i][color=#808080]so unless all items Pirate took went to a different players, it's an abuse.[/color][/i]

[size=2][color=#a9a9a9]edit: spelling errors[/color][/size]

Edited November 9, 2011 by Shemhazaj

[ignnus]

He's trying to monopolize heat jar trade it seems.

[Pipstickz]

They went to an empty aramor, Shem, not an alt, not an actual player, not at all the intended use of aramors OR heat jars.

Ignnus: Exactly my thoughts. I'm just wondering whether to blame the whole guild or just him. Perhaps Yrth knew of this as well, I don't know.

Edited November 9, 2011 by Pipstickz

[Chewett]

I personally feel its wrong, Its just like hoarding them all on an alt and not allowing people to use them. if anyone else used an alt there would be an uproar.

[Passant the Weak]

[quote name='Udgard' timestamp='1320825035' post='95502']
Huh? I thought shared tools can't be transferred via "give item". Have I gotten it wrong, or could someone enlighten me how you could give a shared tool to an empty aramor? Just curious.
[/quote]
Heat jars are transferrable. That was done to allow easy exchange of jars to fill them up.

Mighty pirate. I do ask nicely, as I did ingame last week. Why are you doing that? Just to kill the "Shared Item" feature of heat jars? And do you feel that you are right doing that?

[Shemhazaj]

[i][color=#808080]Storing them on an aramor is hoarding.[/color][/i]
[i][color=#808080]As it was stated in the announcement, it's not allowed.[/color][/i]

[Mighty Pirate]

Some remarks (explicitely not for Pips).

Currently, the heat jar market is unbalanced. Compare that to resourses where there are land rules in place to balance supply and demand. Currently we have very high supply of heat jars for low demand. So what I do is just a way to balance the market.

Remember that the guilds goal is to make money with heat jars. Read the related annoucements. I know that not everybody likes this but that's the way it was announced.

As for permission - I asked for permission before and I got permission.

As for the announcement cited several times here: I did not use alts for this. I did not hoard items. (Many people hoard stuff, most popular are probably memory stones. I do not.)

Items are meant to be used by many people - I absolutely agree to this. Actually, they can be used by all, I'm not aware that there is a single person in this realm who is unable to use a heat jar.

If you interpret this announcement as "all should get heat jars for free" - No, this contradicts our guilds goal and it has never been announced that way.

A final word to all police men and judges: There is no injured party and no denied privilege. This is just something that you might not like. But that's nothing new, all threads dealing with resources and land laws are full of similar complains.

I'm happy to discuss more in a calm way.

[Jubaris]

I see this as Mur's mistake.

Why making guilds for resources, and then turning all their tools to become shared, what's the point of the guilds then? They are obsolete.

Unless I'm missing a stone in this grand scheme.

[Maebius]

[quote name='Rhaegar Targaryen' timestamp='1320833716' post='95514']I see this as Mur's mistake. Why making guilds for resources, and then turning all their tools to become shared, what's the point of the guilds then? They are obsolete. Unless I'm missing a stone in this grand scheme.[/quote]
This was my thought, with the Heat Jars, and Marind Bell's water buckets (for the Dowsers). It seems to be opposing intentions.

I wonder if there is another step in the overall Plan here, that wasn't -quite- implimented yet... Or was to be handled by us, as MightyPirate tried to do? Hmm.......

[MRAlyon]

I don't understand why do this Migthy... for create a heat stone you need also an heat solidifier and the only ones around are in your guild's hands... heat jars should be used by all players that want them... for create glasses ecc... so for me you are wrong...

Edited November 9, 2011 by MRAlyon

[Muratus del Mur]

i have something in plan regarding shared tools to lower this sort of abuse. First of all they won't be transferable to certain types of characters that aren't supposed to use them anyway. More items might be untransferable directly but only by code. There is also an other restriction that i will announce at that time (still undecided about it now).

[Passant the Weak]

Thanks for the clarification Mur. I note that the words "[b][i]this sort of abuse[/i][/b]" have been used....

Regarding easy transfer of items, I do recommend to keep heat jars easily transferrable. Or that would restrict their use too much.

[Udgard]

[quote name='Mighty Pirate' timestamp='1320833034' post='95513']
Some remarks (explicitely not for Pips).

Currently, the heat jar market is unbalanced. Compare that to resourses where there are land rules in place to balance supply and demand. Currently we have very high supply of heat jars for low demand. So what I do is just a way to balance the market.

Remember that the guilds goal is to make money with heat jars. Read the related annoucements. I know that not everybody likes this but that's the way it was announced.

As for permission - I asked for permission before and I got permission.

As for the announcement cited several times here: I did not use alts for this. I did not hoard items. (Many people hoard stuff, most popular are probably memory stones. I do not.)

Items are meant to be used by many people - I absolutely agree to this. Actually, they can be used by all, I'm not aware that there is a single person in this realm who is unable to use a heat jar.

If you interpret this announcement as "all should get heat jars for free" - No, this contradicts our guilds goal and it has never been announced that way.

A final word to all police men and judges: There is no injured party and no denied privilege. This is just something that you might not like. But that's nothing new, all threads dealing with resources and land laws are full of similar complains.

I'm happy to discuss more in a calm way.
[/quote]
Sadly, I would have to disagree with your argument.

First of all thought, I need to ask which resources are you referring to when you say "Compare that to resourses where there are land rules in place to balance supply and demand"? The only two lands I know that has a rule regarding resource collection are LR and GG (with the don't deplete <50% rule). And how have these rules balanced the market?

As far as I know, heat is one of the more highly demanded resource, being a resource that is needed for the only creatable cauldron item at the moment (aromatic tea). If you're talking about low demand vs high supply, other "useless" resources such as all the wood products, poison herbs etc would be in a more dire situation than heat. (And I'd like to remind everyone again that heat jars are also usable directly in a cauldron, not just heat stones). Why would heat need such a monopoly more than those other resources?

The guild's goal is.. to collect heat. At least that's the only thing mentioned about purpose in the announcements. Yes, guilds are allowed to gather money with the tools you have at your disposal, but I don't think money collection was ever the main purpose of any guild in MD.
[quote][b]Fusioneers - New heat based guild[/b]
A new resource based guild was founded, based in GG. This guild will gather..HEAT. For that purpose they were provided with advanced tools, Heat jars and associated Heat Solidifiers. The jars will be given to other people to load with heat and return to them. The Fusioneers will be able to store that heat into memory stones and create Heat stones (casting heat spell). For that they will obviously need Memory stone resource in large quantities. Leadership was granted by GG King to Kiley second by Mighty Pirate. 3 more seats left in the guild, but requirements will be very strict, considering the special activity of this guild. [/quote]

Please clarify who exactly gave you the permission you mentioned you have. Was it the council/Mur? Since the whole issue would be different if it were..

[quote]As for the announcement cited several times here: I did not use alts for this. [/quote]
Although you're treading on a gray area here with "those are not my accounts" stuff, shared tools in the first place are not meant to be just passed around to other accounts(especially "dead accounts" like the aramors) like what you're doing - they're not transferrable except via ITC. Heat jars are a unique in that they can be passed around like normal items, but only because they need to be easily transferrable to use the heat, not so this difference can be abused to hide the tools. What you're doing is clearly not the intended use of the heat jar's transferability.

[quote] I did not hoard items. (Many people hoard stuff, most popular are probably memory stones. I do not.)[/quote]
The announcement explicitly says it is meant to be used by many people though. How is what you're doing not directly going against what is stated in the announcement?
[quote][b]All shared items have been returned to their original place.[/b]
Go grab your favorite tool and engoy it till the next regroup. Try avoiding cauldron type items just before this regrouping takes place (same date and hour weekly) as they will regroup even if they are in use. Item keep some of the modified values on regrouping. You should not use alts to store multiple shared items and you should not hoard them, these items are [b]meant to be used by many people[/b] not hoarded by a few.[/quote]

[quote]Items are meant to be used by many people - I absolutely agree to this. Actually, they can be used by all, I'm not aware that there is a single person in this realm who is unable to use a heat jar.

If you interpret this announcement as "all should get heat jars for free" - No, this contradicts our guilds goal and it has never been announced that way.
[/quote]
There is lots of people in this realm who is unable to use a heat jar - not when they're hidden away in an empty aramors's hollow suit.

Btw, the announcement did announce things "that" way, you know...
[quote][b]Shared Tools[/b]
A vast majority of tool items will be turned into shared tools. Shared tools can be picked up in a fixed place, probably the capital of each land or other suitable locations. After a time they will spawn back there to be picked up by someone else or same person (time and way they are picked up is not final yet). All current tools except a few ones and the tools marked as "independent" will move to this new way of using tools. The guilds responsible with resources will remain as they are but their purpose will shift to a new direction when their tools will be migrated to the shared system. This is a major concept change and won't come easy to do. [b]During this process all migrated tools can be taken freely from the item dispatch places described[/b], but eventually, tools will be "rented" by each land and resource guilds will have a much better purpose and way to determine hierarchy (based on skill). This way tools will remain always in action and anyone could work for his resource related role and will not depend on joining a guild or receiving such a role as a gift. As always, use the forum for commenting this.[/quote]

NB:
@passant: thx for the explanation on the mechanics

[phantasm]

The only two lands I know that has a rule regarding resource collection are LR and GG (with the don't deplete <50% rule). And how have these rules balanced the market?

The Tribunal has a rule of no depletion under 60%. Though we have no king (that is ever around for its citizens that is) we have all decided upon this rule and do regular checks to see who is depleting resources. If there is a rule in LR its blatantly disregarded, as almost always there is huge amounts of total depletion in that land.

As to Mighty Pirate, not only is his remarks a blatant admittance of such abuse, but almost a slap to the face of the public saying "The fusioneers are not making money off you, there fore I am taking your tools". Often times Yrth himself hands heat jars to those who ask him kindly. I therefor ask Yrth as king of GG to step into this matter and make a statement as to Mighty Pirate's abuse. As he said he was 'given permission' I would like to know by whom.

[Yrthilian]

So now that someone has decided to manage a resource you all go crazy and complain.
What happened when the memory stones got managed like that? oh nothing a small bit of neg repping and that was about it.
Each land has their own rules to each land item and in regards to tool use.

The Fusioneer's have the responsibility of managing Heat jar's. Before they got turned into public items the heat jars where
used and managed by the fusioneers and that is what they are doing. Managing the tool.
Personally i dont care about the announcement of the shared tool as it is a complete contradiction to the alliance role.
again remember the tool was the alliances before a bunch more got created and put into shared status.
So the fact that the fusioneers feel they have a right to manage such a tool is not unjustified.

To answer to whom gave the permission for Mighty P to do as he has been doing. It was me and i stand by that.
This is just a case of Mighty finding a loop hole to the rules that have not been plugged. He is not using an alt.
The armours are not ALT's they are something else. They are not necessarily dead account's ether.

This sort of thing has been done many times in the past and has always been abused. Just when someone
has done it with a tool like this now you all complain. Why didn't you moan about the woodcutters and their abuse?
and no i wont start bringing in more crap of prove this prove that. I have no care to do so.

Until Mur make a set rule or implement what every he has planed i dont see the issue.
Mighty has a system he has figured out and it is up to Mur to fix that if he so wishes.
The only reason this is coming to light is that is has curved the greed a little and the greedy are upset by it.

So it is like this. When Mur states it is 100% abuse and should not be done
then Mighty may stop doing it that way. But if that is the case then nardolsk i think is it should stop taking all
the water tools like he has been as that is a worse case of abuse. that what you lot are moaning about
but you have done nothing to stop him or complain much about it.

So if you are going to start picking on this sort of thing then bring every one into it that is abusing and not just
the one guild or player. But all of them and i mean ALL of them. It is funny how you lot decided to gang up
on one player until they give up and not bother others whom have been abusing the system for a much longer time.

All this has come down to one thing farming what ever you can and abuse it all. To me all you lot are doing is making a mess
of what should have been a wonderful system.

[Mighty Pirate]

I'd like to add this announcement, just because it is missing in this thread:

Ann. 1971 - [2011-08-10 07:42:54 - Stage 10]
Fusioneers will receive an additional (separate) set of heat containers to be leased based on
reasons/price/rules they decide, for common use. Heat containers just store heat and allow heat
powered devices to function (cauldron type, sand melters, and a lot more to come).

[Passant the Weak]

[quote name='Yrthilian' timestamp='1320841367' post='95526']
So now that someone has decided to manage a resource you all go crazy and complain.
<...snip...>
All this has come down to one thing farming what ever you can and abuse it all. To me all you lot are doing is making a mess
of what should have been a wonderful system.
[/quote]
Not sure I understood both points:
- what resource are you talking about?
- what farming and abuse are you talking about?