Where is the punishment for Murder?

[Nimrodel]

Death is an important part of MD. But Murder in any form is not justified even if it is transient or in game. It is a horrifying thing to even think of. Why is not there any kind of punishment for murder? Why is not there a jail sentence? Is it implied that MD wants to propagate murder and encourage the idea? Or is it some kind of sadistic fun / dumb social experiment? There is a murder expert in MD for hire. And it is a role. There are murder weapons. I want to ask MD community if you think this is justified. If murder without punishment is a thing to be taken so lightly. I propose a jail tenure for 1 month for the first murder committed followed by an increment of 1 month every time a murder is committed by the same person.

[Muratus del Mur]

I am considering the justice system in md as an "exception" that kicks in only in some isolated cases, the rest of the justice system in md should happen between players or between land leaders and their subjects. Jail is for crimes that are not allowed to be done, while "killing" is something that has tools to be done and is part of the gameplay, i can't officialy send to jail anyone using a kill tool, as if it would be the same sort of crime with someone abusing the system or doing things i consider far worse. In RL murder is punished drasically, but there are also no "reviving" spells available, think about that.

[Menhir]

My two cents:

 

1. Murder should have a counter and I´m not talking about the possibility to prevent the actual killing. If it is that easy to kill someone in an instant why do I see dead MD folks for days and weeks? I say besides a punishment there should be a much easier way of revival as it is now. There was a plan for a rival fruit in the gardens but so far it did not came into play. I have to look into this ...

 

2. A contract killer is obviously not good if the majority knows that he/she is a killer living amongst them and here the concept of a contract killer in MD is failing (so far). We all know such killer exists and with that knowing most of us "accept" the act of killing as a normal part of our MD life which instantly causes questions within me. Why did we not all try to prevent that such a "feature" was implemented? (we didnt know)

I was just complaining but not thinking of "solutions" how this contract killer feature could be vanishing again (and it has not much to do with Eon as member of the MD community). The whole idea would have been a real authority if there would have been a statement that there is a contract killer from now on who will remain hidden and if hired (it would have been interesting how to hire an unknown killer) do his "job" trying not to be discovered. And if the crime was discovered and the killer caught we could have a discussion about the punishment. But as it is now the assassin is an official Killer from the higher authority of MD to do a "JOB". As long as the community has no real tools or possibilities to counter the idea (for example take away the killing tools from a caught killer) it will stay as one of those features which makes no real sense to me. 

 

 

 

I summarize:

 

I suggest to take away the killer contract feature from the actual assassin and start new but with an unknown assassin (could be again Eon). Hide the tools in the inventory of the assassin and make it interesting and 

challenging to hire him/her. Give the community the tools or features to deal with the outcome of a killing and the possibilities to judge a killer who was caught.

[Maebius]

If not proper JailJail, perhaps a more player-controlled venue?

What do the Kings say?   What could be done for someone from NoMansLand?  

 

Either way, the Discussion has value, regardless of which side you are on.  :cool:

 

(regarding Contract... announcements.

regarding revival, I have not found Molquert or his guards yet myself, and have actually looked around for them this week.  I really like the concept of that method, if it can be utilized)

Edited August 30, 2013 by Maebius

[Nimrodel]

I am considering the justice system in md as an "exception" that kicks in only in some isolated cases, the rest of the justice system in md should happen between players or between land leaders and their subjects. Jail is for crimes that are not allowed to be done, while "killing" is something that has tools to be done and is part of the gameplay, i can't officialy send to jail anyone using a kill tool, as if it would be the same sort of crime with someone abusing the system or doing things i consider far worse. In RL murder is punished drasically, but there are also no "reviving" spells available, think about that.

 

The way I see it, you are justifying murder by the presence of revival spells. I really cant accept it. By your response, you seem to be saying that 'killing' is not a big thing. That the intent to murder is not a big thing because there are revival tools. Did you really intend that feature to be something like that? With all the symbology you give importance to, is this the value death has for you? The only counter to murder in MD is revival? So any number of people can be killed because they can be revived back? And killing a person in MD is not as bad as abusing the game to gain insane stats?

 

Death in MD is already a joke. It'll be a bigger joke in times to come. MD is not a platform to make a joke about something like murder and death. I have gained so many values form this game, but seeing people in MD killed on such a regular basis, it's like MD doesnt value life anymore. Now, it's like, "So what if I die? There is always someone to revive me." No wonder Seig's day of fear failed so epicly. From what I remember, at one point, he said that he was trying to make people fear death and its consequences. Obviously people dont fear death in MD. Because every week there is someone who kills and someone who dies. Majority of the revival item holders want to charge money or put forward insane conditions. If you do not have powerful friends who can beat up the molquert guards, you just end up being dead all the time till molquert threatens people and people help in the revival.All this drama is getting boring now.

 

I appreciate the concept of death. But I do not appreciate the concept of murder. As Maeb said, there should be a system that should provide some kind of punishment. Keep the jail for abuse related punishhments. Ok. But please implement some kind of system that punishes murder too. 

[Chewett]

Death cant be considered Murder since its something that you can come back from. I raised concern at the fact that its so hard to get revived, especially with eons new role, but mur asked me to trust him that the things that will be implemented will make it much more trivial. I can follow this up if people want me to.

As for punishing those, All the main lands have governments, Since i havent seen GG proclaim all those dealing death or being involved in contracts will be jailed i guess you havent talked to your government yet nim. This is the first step if you want those who kill to be punished. I can tell you know that its never going to be an official punishment, so if you want punishment its going to have to be a social one.

As for dealing with those not in the mainland, think of what could be done if all the main lands agree on doing something. It could be rather problematic for those that wish to kill.

As i keep saying, you have governments, and many layers of authority you can appeal to without just going to council and asking. I can assure you that council/Mur/I are not going to make a punishment for killing, so that path is dead in the water.

You all have the power to do a lot, but it appears that most people dont take the initiative and TRY.

Simply put nim, You have the power to implement social change, just be being around, why dont YOU do the work? Hint: talking to your monarch and getting some punishment for all GG citizens is a start.

[Nimrodel]

Death cant be considered Murder since its something that you can come back from. I raised concern at the fact that its so hard to get revived, especially with eons new role, but mur asked me to trust him that the things that will be implemented will make it much more trivial. I can follow this up if people want me to.

As for punishing those, All the main lands have governments, Since i havent seen GG proclaim all those dealing death or being involved in contracts will be jailed i guess you havent talked to your government yet nim. This is the first step if you want those who kill to be punished. I can tell you know that its never going to be an official punishment, so if you want punishment its going to have to be a social one.

As for dealing with those not in the mainland, think of what could be done if all the main lands agree on doing something. It could be rather problematic for those that wish to kill.

As i keep saying, you have governments, and many layers of authority you can appeal to without just going to council and asking. I can assure you that council/Mur/I are not going to make a punishment for killing, so that path is dead in the water.

You all have the power to do a lot, but it appears that most people dont take the initiative and TRY.

Simply put nim, You have the power to implement social change, just be being around, why dont YOU do the work? Hint: talking to your monarch and getting some punishment for all GG citizens is a start.

 

Since you have put it up so publicly, reffering you, i shall talk to my leader. And since you asked GG to take the first step, I presume you as the monarch of MB dont want to take the first step in favour of this? Good. Thank you for your advice. I shall see what i can do.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Nimrodel

[Chewett]

Since you have put it up so publicly, reffering you, i shall talk to my leader. And since you asked GG to take the first step, I presume you as the monarch of MB dont want to take the first step in favour of this? Good. Thank you for your advice. I shall see what i can do.

I talk as the coder who is frustrated at those that dont try. As for "penalties of death" we have been discussing death since before you made this topic.

[Nimrodel]

I talk as the coder who is frustrated at those that dont try. As for "penalties of death" we have been discussing death since before you made this topic.

 

Don't try? Lol. I have been trying to bring this thing out since forever. I have even made posts in the thieving post that Mur had suggested. There was no hint given about the fact that talks were going on either. In fact people didnt even respond to my post.

 

Also, unfortunately, the person who holds the contract for killing doesnt really care about what the MD society thinks. Neither do most of the people who hire him. Otherwise they would've never done it. I wont argue with you. I just put forward a proposal of what I saw as a solution. I was hoping more people would raise their voices against the whole issue. Guess people dont want to do that. I shall try to do what I can.

[Muratus del Mur]

murder in md is not by far the same thing as murder in rl. A few things differ. In rl ANYONE COULD murder anyone, in md you need to aquire tools for this task an getting those tools give you a partial right to use them as you think fit. Second, death is not permanent, even without reviving methods, while in rl there is no reviving and the punishment for murder takes into consideration the permanency of this crime. As i said, there could be any sort of punishments and rules set by the land leaders as they think fit. On a social level they can and should cover any such thing that might be missing or unregulated by md in an official way. From MY perspective, murder is not punishable, because in MD i represent the equivalent of "nature" and in nature, murder happens and nobody punishes you for it "officialy". All punishments for murder are given by representants of the same species. humans punish humans, not other animals, for murder, while in the jungle animals kill with a purpose and nothing "punishes" them for this action. So, murder, in my eyes as the one being officially responsible of md as a contained world, murder is a natural thing to happen, unpunishable by me, and i don't care, or better said i give full freedom to any social structure within md to punish it as they can, if they can.

[Nimrodel]

murder in md is not by far the same thing as murder in rl. A few things differ. In rl ANYONE COULD murder anyone, in md you need to aquire tools for this task an getting those tools give you a partial right to use them as you think fit. Second, death is not permanent, even without reviving methods, while in rl there is no reviving and the punishment for murder takes into consideration the permanency of this crime. As i said, there could be any sort of punishments and rules set by the land leaders as they think fit. On a social level they can and should cover any such thing that might be missing or unregulated by md in an official way. From MY perspective, murder is not punishable, because in MD i represent the equivalent of "nature" and in nature, murder happens and nobody punishes you for it "officialy". All punishments for murder are given by representants of the same species. humans punish humans, not other animals, for murder, while in the jungle animals kill with a purpose and nothing "punishes" them for this action. So, murder, in my eyes as the one being officially responsible of md as a contained world, murder is a natural thing to happen, unpunishable by me, and i don't care, or better said i give full freedom to any social structure within md to punish it as they can, if they can.

 

MD is a jungle and we are animals. We have chosen a natural way of life rather than a civilised way of life. Why conduct polls then? Why aim for justice? Why even punish anyone for abuse?

 

I will do what I can to fight out. But let me tell you one thing. The more I read, the less I like. I am sure there'll be a moment coming very soon when I will regret I even posted this thread.

[Muratus del Mur]

Oh but md IS a jungle, too bad we are not animals, we are shards of each ones soul.

[Chewett]

Don't try? Lol. I have been trying to bring this thing out since forever. I have even made posts in the thieving post that Mur had suggested. There was no hint given about the fact that talks were going on either. In fact people didnt even respond to my post.
 
Also, unfortunately, the person who holds the contract for killing doesnt really care about what the MD society thinks. Neither do most of the people who hire him. Otherwise they would've never done it. I wont argue with you. I just put forward a proposal of what I saw as a solution. I was hoping more people would raise their voices against the whole issue. Guess people dont want to do that. I shall try to do what I can.

You should try talking to eon instead of just demeaning him.

as for >>As for "penalties of death" we have been discussing death since before you made this topic.

i meant, as a land, as MB, as you made a snide comment about me being a king and not doing anything.

[Nimrodel]

You should try talking to eon instead of just demeaning him.

as for >>As for "penalties of death" we have been discussing death since before you made this topic.

i meant, as a land, as MB, as you made a snide comment about me being a king and not doing anything.

 

I am not demeaning eon. Its his role. He has chosen to do it. Willingly. I doubt anyone forced it on him. If he has accepted such a role knowing well what all he might have to face, and knowing how he has withstood to all the negative social pressure put on him in the past, I said he really doesnt care what the society thinks of him. He has his own beliefs. Trying to put more social pressure on him is not an alternative.

 

I didnt say you werent doing anything about it. I said since you asked GG to take the first step, apparently you weren't planning to take the first step. Especially when one of your own subjects is openly hiring eon's services to take out necro folks one by one. For whatever the reason might be. To test things to understand mechanics. Anything. I am kinda done arguing with you or anyonelse regarding this subject. Its quite apparent people don't give this issue as much importance as I do.

[Zyrxae]

A huge difference between MD and reality is that the authorities in MD aren't so much concerned with enforcing social rules (like RL police) as tasked with keeping the reality of the realm intact. 'Killing' (although really it's more like 'being dishonored to the point of such shame and dejection that a friend must seek help to restore your spirits') does nothing to violate the boundary between MD and RL, whereas actions that violate the official rules (bug/alt abuse..) generally do.

MD authorities are more the equivalent of gods than regular police in terms of both their powers and their duties.

We have chosen a natural way of life rather than a civilised way of life. Why conduct polls then? Why aim for justice?

Because we have the freedom to choose to do so. I've heard a lot of disgruntled chatter about killings, and yet have heard of no trade or even physical embargoes between unhappy parties' lands or alliances.

To punish someone, either subject them to a situation they dislike or prevent them from getting what they want.

What is it that the killers want? What would they hate most?

[Chewett]

I didnt say you werent doing anything about it. I said since you asked GG to take the first step, apparently you weren't planning to take the first step. Especially when one of your own subjects is openly hiring eon's services to take out necro folks one by one. For whatever the reason might be. To test things to understand mechanics. Anything. I am kinda done arguing with you or anyonelse regarding this subject. Its quite apparent people don't give this issue as much importance as I do.

We are having very interesting discussions about the issue, its good, i havent yet had time to post since people are debating it a lot on our forums and wouldnt like to post a comment without reading it all.

I take it seriously, but obviously dont consider it as much of a problem as you, Iv talked to Mur about this and he has changed my viewpoint significantly, in that saying killing and reviving will become more common, so far only killing has, so unless he is going to do something soonish about reviving, i will be doing something to re-address the balance.

[Menhir]

We are having very interesting discussions about the issue, its good, i havent yet had time to post since people are debating it a lot on our forums and wouldnt like to post a comment without reading it all.

I take it seriously, but obviously dont consider it as much of a problem as you, Iv talked to Mur about this and he has changed my viewpoint significantly, in that saying killing and reviving will become more common, so far only killing has, so unless he is going to do something soonish about reviving, i will be doing something to re-address the balance.

 

My impression of Nimrodels intension to start this topic was that killing seams to be common in MD as a theme and that she does not understand why so much is evolving around death in this way. The killing of someone in MD or RL has reasons and none of them is funny at all and I guess thats what this is all about. For some death is closer in RL in comparison for others and so it´s not taken as non serious behavior when someone orders a killing or is killing by him/herself. I´m anxious to see how "killing and reviving will become more common" is adding something to MD which attracts more people to the realm or make MD more interesting for the already playing community. 

[dst]

Killing is the new cool thing in MD. Give us a new cool think and killing will not be so popular anymore.

[Mystire]

I haven't really played MD much, nor experienced the thing about killing that people have been talking about, so I don't suppose I can really give a qualified comment, but I think the thing about death in real life is that it takes away real life. When you die in real life you die, and your experience is over, and everything you have gained and hold on to and value and is important to you is taken away. You lose everything, and that's just for your effects on you. Everyone who is dear to you loses everything that depends on you, too. And so in society we have rules to make sure that no one can go around doing this to any person and all those around them without a really really really good reason that most can agree with or at least justify. But in MD it sounds like death and murder doesn't have the same thing at all. It doesn't sound like you lose all your possessions (well, maybe you do, but if you come back you have a chance to get them back?), all you stand for, your family, your identity, your people, all you treasure and all that is important to you. Instead, from what I'm getting from Mur, death here is simply part of the experience, a different part of experience. That is, death here is part of the gameplay, and thus by definition part of life here, since life is basically the sum of our experience. It just happens to be called the same name as the 'death' that we are familiar with (or rather, think we are familiar with) in real life. Or at least you can think of it that way, at that level (at the level where we are all shards of the One, welll, that is sort of different but ehhh)

 

I guess the important thing is to recognise the reasons for morality and law and order, and what is behind them. There are reasons why morality is thus in RL, there are reasons why law and order is thus in RL, and there are reasons why they are so in MD, and there's the reality behind those reasons. Without that we will always be conflating the morality here with the morality there, which will perhaps tend to make us angry about people not respecting life and respecting death, or appearing to condone murder, or not treating them with enough importance, things like that. Looking at them separately, perhaps we can understand better how killing, murder, and death is thus here instead. I guess.

 

That's just how I see it, anyways. Hope this helps in some or any way.

[Miq]

Ave,

 

Think of this as the Assassins Guild. Everyone knows they exist they even know the persons but the guild will not just kill someone for fun. There is a price. Say killing Mur would be 20GC (considering it's not permanent). So one just has to rise his price for the guild and soon noone can afford the assassination.

 

Miq

[Jester]

"Death" in MD shouldn't even be called that. Its just a really stupid feature that imposes some temporary restrictions on an account. Would you suggest people who use the curse spell are jailed for a week next?

 

The word "killing" might bring up negative implications to you, but that's your own problem. You don't need to freak out about people using a game feature. In RPGs do you refuse to fight random encounters because you don't want to kill random monsters?

 

I really can't believe you actually thought people who used an in-game tool should be jailed. That's just idiotic.

[Nimrodel]

"Death" in MD shouldn't even be called that. Its just a really stupid feature that imposes some temporary restrictions on an account. Would you suggest people who use the curse spell are jailed for a week next?

 

The word "killing" might bring up negative implications to you, but that's your own problem. You don't need to freak out about people using a game feature. In RPGs do you refuse to fight random encounters because you don't want to kill random monsters?

 

I really can't believe you actually thought people who used an in-game tool should be jailed. That's just idiotic.

 

 

Do people interact with monsters in rpgs and make friends with them? Do people develop bonds and association in RPGs with npc monsters? Why is whole of necro trying to protect syrian if death is a silly matter? They could just let her get killed and i could resurrect her for them. But no. Oh well. Guess thats for fun too. Taunting Kerberos, calling it names. Have fun about it then.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Nimrodel

[lashtal]

Why is whole of necro trying to protect syrian if death is a silly matter?

 

Because it's the new game we're asked to play.

And you know what? It's even fun!

 

Anyway, I would reconsider things for their real proportions... Maebius has a part in this plot and he hired Eon to kill Tainted Warriors.

As much as his character will pay for this - and I assure you, he will - the man behind it is still our friend.

 

Easy folks, take it easy!  :))

[Dragual]

This is a role play game, and in almost EVERY RPG, I've played, Murder was a crime. Crime's are punishable. Mur mentioned that some items and features that are ALLOWED can get you jailed. In a very logical sense, killing someone should be something to get you sent to jail. Especially if theft would be punishable by Jail. It would be far more stupid to have theft be a crime that can get you jailed, and not murder. 

[Nimrodel]

Because it's the new game we're asked to play.
And you know what? It's even fun!

Anyway, I would reconsider things for their real proportions... Maebius has a part in this plot and he hired Eon to kill Tainted Warriors.
As much as his character will pay for this - and I assure you, he will - the man behind it is still our friend.

Easy folks, take it easy! :))

The actions of you and your people contradict your words. Why make maeb's character regret if this means nothing serious to you? Why the idea of revenge? Its all about intent...