Yrthilian Retired King abusing power he no longer should have

[Peace]

As some may have noticed, after he was disbanded from the Tainted Warriors, Azull joined the Fusioneers. I don't have an issue with this, nor I saw anyone complaining about it.

Except the retired King. Yrthilian stepped down from his throne. He has retired. This means that he should not have any kind of power over those who were his subjects. He can influence them, but I find it outregeous to jail someone for joining a Golemian alliance, even if it was someone from Necrovion. I would like to state that I do not want this to turn into a diplomatic issue. Merely pointing out that retired Kings and Queens should no longer hold the royal items.

Open for discussion.

[MRAlyon]

Yrthilian do the job that should be done!!! he told that he retires himself from king position but until the future of GG land will be decided he will do the King again!!! necrovion shouldn't have any position in GG and only for get GG land loyalty points!!!

another thing... there isn't wrote in Yrthilian's tag that he is the retired king etc... but the King of GG

Edited December 29, 2011 by MRAlyon

[Peace]

[quote name='MRAlyon' timestamp='1325173337' post='99015']
Yrthilian do the job that should be done!!! he told that he retires himself from king position but until the future of GG land will be decided he will do the King again!!! necrovion shouldn't have any position in GG and only for get GG land loyalty points!!!
[/quote]

You can not retire and then claim you are still the King. Once retired, it is over. Finished. Otherwise, I can go on as well and say that I am Queen of Necrovion again and ask for the royal items to be returned to me to do kingship work. Does this seems right to you?

What Azull was doing in Kiley's alliance, it is only for Kiley to know whether to accept it or not. I do not want to speak on her behalf, but I doubt she would follow orders form someone who has given up their power publicly.

[Junior]

The Ex-Kings still have their tools and are capable of continued use. The idea behind royal items was that there was no rush into giving the tools for the Kings/ Queens therefore there is no rush to take them away. On top of that the tools are capable to remain in the hands of the ex kings because after they still have valid public role points. aswell as imho these tools were given to highly respected players who wouldnt use the tools as a toy and only as "they" seem right for their views of their land.

[MRAlyon]

Kiley does this thing thinking that there wasn't something of wrong with this... don't think that if she had asked to land leaders about this she have done the same thing, accepting Azull in her alliance... Azull wasn't into GG alliance!!!
and Yrthilian for me is always my king until GG future will be decided and I think is so for all other GGs... and I think Azull is able to put on forum this problem without your help if this was a problem for him...

Edited December 29, 2011 by MRAlyon

[Peace]

I understand this Junior, but jailing someone (for unknown time if I am not mistaken) just because you don't want him in your land is not fair. Did Yrthilian at least approach either Kiley or Azull to discuss this and find a middle solution? No.

@Alyon:

I am not speaking up for Azull, he can come and speak for himself. I merely see injustice and speak of it. My issue is with with retired Kings and holding powers.

Edited December 29, 2011 by DarkPriestess

[MRAlyon]

then for me they should keep them until the land future will be decided!!! this is for all lands...

[Burns]

The land holds the power, not Yrthilian as person. Yrth just does the stuff.

Just wanted to make that clear, Yrth didn't decide how to deal with that on his own, and never wanted to because he [b]doesn't take the decisions alone anymore[/b].

As long as the items stay in our possession, they need to be held by somebody, if that's Yrth or somebody else we trust doesn't matter the slightest bit at this point.
If the land items get confiscated for some reason or other, we'll have to deal with things in different ways, obviously. Until then, we can use them just fine.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Burns

[Azull]

[quote name='MRAlyon' timestamp='1325173337' post='99015']
necrovion shouldn't have any position in GG and only for get GG land loyalty points!!![/quote]
Gaining GG land loyalty was a consideration of course, but by no means the main or only reason I asked to join a GG guild for a while. For 7 days nobody of GG except SS said anything about it. And then only to warn me Yrthilian might jail me if he learns of it.



[quote name='Juni0r' timestamp='1325173924' post='99017']
aswell as imho these tools were given to highly respected players who wouldn't use the tools as a toy and only as "they" seem right for their views of their land.
[/quote]
Perhaps, but Yrthilan could have just asked me to leave and I would have, without the need for something like this.
I told him this in private after he jailed me. His reply however was that I would not be released. This seems a bit excessive to me, since Yrthilian has no problems with GG citizens using illusions to gain land loyalty from other lands.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Azull

[Peace]

I strongly believe that all royal items should be returned and only once the future is finally decided, they should come back into play again. Even having them returned to previous Kings if it seems fitting. Currently all lands have no Kings or Queens. Thus, work on your own without the items.

@ Burns:

So this was a decision both Yrthilian and the [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Triumvirate took?[/font][/color]

[Maebius]

(Have the royal items been taken away somewhere? Not to stir the pot, but I believe Handy Pockets still has the scepter and such for MB, but had promised not to use them. I half-remember Mur asked that Monarchs were to have stepped down and behave . I'll have to look up any appropriate Announcements and Forum posts....)

And back on topic, I tend to agree with Azull & Peace.
Knee-jerk reactions instead of a friendly PM or forum message might go a long way towards diplomacy. Stepping down, is stepping down, and such actions seem be crossing the line to me.
But then again, I'm not entirely sure how GG politics work, so maybe it still is his call?

Just because you can, doesn't mean you should. (use Land Items, that is)
I know a recent Mur-post mentioned that specifically, in relation to "stealing items" functionality someday.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Maebius

[Chewett]

I was under the impression Mur made some announcement asking all kings NOT to use their powers.

[BFH]

what chew told is correct

[quote]
[color="#CCCCCC"]Ann. 2097 - [2011-11-18 22:21:02 - Stage 11][/color]
[b]All wp codes that were given out by the kings/queen will be reset in a few days.[/b] If you have unactivated wp codes please activate them asap. The wishpoint you can give anytime later, but the wp code will expire if not used. Ex-kings are requested not to use any of their king abilities to reward or punish in the next days while thei will still have them available and not to give out anymore codes.[/quote]

[Jubaris]

But recruiting new citizens is ok? It doesn't fit in reward/punish sections.

[Peace]

It still applies in the rule of using royal items. Seperating the items because of their use is pointless, all items are counted the same whether it is to make someone citizen or excommunicate one in my opinion.

[Azull]

[quote name='BFH' timestamp='1325177560' post='99027']
what chew told is correct[/quote]
[quote name='Burns' timestamp='1325174730' post='99021']
The land holds the power, not Yrthilian as person. Yrth just does the stuff.
Just wanted to make that clear, Yrth didn't decide how to deal with that on his own, and never wanted to because he [b]doesn't take the decisions alone anymore[/b].[/quote]
With reference to the above and the aforementioned lack of communication towards me from GG land leaders, I formally ask to be released from this unjust ban that has been put upon me.

[Maebius]

[quote name='Rhaegar Targaryen' timestamp='1325177831' post='99028']But recruiting new citizens is ok? It doesn't fit in reward/punish sections.[/quote]

Recruiting citizens in Azull's case was handled by his joining the Fusioneers. Not via any kingly "accept me" powers.
Alliance automagically involved Citizenship, so I'd say Kiley was, in effect, who granted Azull citizenship to Golemus, via her Alliance.

[Shadowseeker]

While the announcement of Mur does say to not use them in the next few days, it has been a month since it. Because of that, there thus has been a void in authority- so until then, arguably the king fills it as a regent, till the next government can be established.

I've had this argument myself with someone else, but ultimately it comes down to the fact that upon entering the alliance Azull risked punishment from the GG tools. Which until a clear stance upon how Mur decides to fill the void, is to be done by the regent in position, being yrthilian. The announcement itself was never meant to be permanent. I assume that the GG leaders requesting this action only made it easier to decide.

And Maebius, in this case Azull himself said it: He did it to gain some land loyalty. Which, clearly being unwanted (I assume he'd realize himself earlier, but no later than after I pointed out yrthilian might jail him), would lead to expulsion. Obviously diplomacy would have been a better way to decide it, but it was not chosen, nor was the outcome clear- if Azull decided to take the risk of getting jailed, why would he leave the alliance which could only be forced from Kiley otherwise, who himself allowed him in?

I'm just pointing out some things I discussed recently with someone else on this.

[Seigheart]

So, Yrth banned Azull? O.o

And the reasoning he has, is because he didn't want him in his land?

Why didn't he want him in his Land? Was there some sort of threat?


Someone care to explain?

[Jubaris]

Yes Maeb, but I'm talking about the ability to make someone a citizen without inviting him or her to an alliance. I've noticed several people with Necrovion citizenship around, who could have only gotten it after Jester's "downfall".

I'm concerned mostly about this because our land, Marind Bell, gets its people mostly on the level of citizenship, while the alliances are the next advanced steps.

[Azull]

[quote name='Shadowseeker' timestamp='1325179672' post='99035']
And Maebius, in this case Azull himself said it: He did it to gain some land loyalty. Which, clearly being unwanted (I assume he'd realize himself earlier, but no later than after I pointed out yrthilian might jail him), would lead to expulsion. Obviously diplomacy would have been a better way to decide it, but it was not chosen, nor was the outcome clear- if Azull decided to take the risk of getting jailed, why would he leave the alliance which could only be forced from Kiley otherwise, who himself allowed him in?
[/quote]
As I said, land loyalty was only part of the reason. I never intended to stay long enough (+40 days) for it to make any real difference. I would have left if any Golemus official would have asked me to. Again, SS, aside from your warning that I [u]might[/u] get jailed there was no communication with any GG official except that which was started by myself. On the day I joined I sent a PM to Grido explaining my intentions. There were no official complaints or summons for me to leave the guild.


[quote name='Rhaegar Targaryen' timestamp='1325179726' post='99037']
Yes Maeb, but I'm talking about the ability to make someone a citizen without inviting him or her to an alliance. I've noticed several people with Necrovion citizenship around, who could have only gotten it after Jester's "downfall".
[/quote]
Necrovian citizenship, as such, was never removed. Only those in alliances that got disbanded lost their citizenship. However, for a short time after Jester's "downfall" I had the ability to grant NC citizenship (the Royal Signet ring) I used it only on a few who had lost their citizenship due to the loss of alliances before all king items were taken.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Azull

[Shadowseeker]

I know I said might, because I could not be sure- you agreed with me. You could have prevented this however by simply asking yrthilian first, or did you do that and he reneged?

In the discussion there was another interesting point brought up: If you bring diplomacy and asking as a method up, you PMed Grido, but never stated intent to back off if asked. The PM itself also only states intent to get land loyalty. The way it was worded, it was to declare intent, not to ask permission, which you seemed to take for granted. If you had asked and gotten permission first, it probably would not have happened.

While personally I do not care too much about this, apparently the other GG people do feel it warrant a jail period.

[xrieg]

Regent should not assume all monarchs prerogatives - not without a reason prolonged interreign has always been a problem in history. To the best of my understanding King has the power not the council (even if monarch may elect to follow council's recommendations).
We all know many things in MD work slow. In most cases complaining newbies are hushed and told to wait for their problem's turn to be resolved. Why GG lack of authority to jail longer than 'a few days' from the announcement be any different? It seems to me that contrary to many transgressions/ possoble ones this one is clear - it was directly announced that kings should refrain from using these tools and no intermediate tools handling bodies were assigned

Edited December 29, 2011 by xrieg

[Azull]

[quote name='Shadowseeker' timestamp='1325181437' post='99041']
I know I said might, because I could not be sure- you agreed with me. You could have prevented this however by simply asking yrthilian first, or did you do that and he reneged?

In the discussion there was another interesting point brought up: If you bring diplomacy and asking as a method up, you PMed Grido, but never stated intent to back off if asked. The PM itself also only states intent to get land loyalty. The way it was worded, it was to declare intent, not to ask permission, which you seemed to take for granted. If you had asked and gotten permission first, it probably would not have happened.

While personally I do not care too much about this, apparently the other GG people do feel it warrant a jail period.
[/quote]
I told Kiley I would leave the guild the moment she asked me to, or when otherwise I needed to leave for whatever reason.
As stated in my messages to Grido, land loyalty was part of it yes. Admittedly I should have worded my intentions more clearly.

If I had asked Yrthilian if I could join a GG guild for a while, his answer would clearly be no. Considering his reactions to anything Necrovian. Furthermore, he resigned and therefore I felt asking the guild leader would be enough.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Azull

[Yrthilian]

well looks like someone is trying to cause issues beyond what they are AGAIN.

So lets get down to it.

1. I announced i was stepping down but this would not happen until a replacement was in place.
2. My actions where taken not just of me making the decision.
3. The leader (be it ex or not) decided they would join Golemus WITH OUT checking with land leaders first. Just because i am not king does not mean i am not a land leader.
4. As you can see Azull was warned of possible jailing and still choose to stay in the alliance and still didn't communicate with land leaders.
5. I will admit i missed the announcement from mur on the use of the items.
6. a week went by for very good reason before taking action i was away on holidays
7. A week went by and Azull still choose to stay in the land without permission from ALL land leaders
8. Alliance leader Keily does not have over all say as to whom can become a land citizen and should have communicated to land leaders (this is a matter for the land leaders)

I find it both annoying and frustrating that that so many assumptions are being made in this matter.
As mentioned i took the actions after making sure land leaders where ok with this.
I should not be explaining this to anyone out side of Golemus.
The ones starting this sort of forum attack (yet again are making this personal)
Know this. Be i a king or land leader or just a citizen i will take every action i can that i have the power to
use and will stop necrovian citizens becoming a Golemus citizen. You made your choice.

I have and always will be agents necrovian gaining Citizenship of the land i love and protect.
this has always been how i am. I have on occasion let and even help necrovian around the land
but because of recent activities and yes Peace you are one of them i will do everything to be sure
Necrovians will be thrown out of Golemus. I know i cant do it 24/7 but i will do it when i am online.

I though we had started to gain trust between the land and i was starting to allow necrovian citizens into
Golemus but this action and the even it is part of show that trust is not something that can be had between Golemus
and Necrovian if this is how they intend to do business between our lands.

In regards to the kingship items. The are still in my possession while i type this reply
As acting king until FINAL decision is made i will keep holding them. There is a way for Azull to get out of jail
if the necrovian citizens choose to find it and use it so be it. AT lest then it is the land showing defence for their people
something that is lacking a lot thies days.

Now i am loosing track of the argument ans tire of this so read on and do as you wish.
If MUR or the Council decide i should be punished AGAIN for defending my land so be it
but i will keep defending it in every way i can.

edit:

just yo add i speak personally of the blocking of necrovians from Golemus
If the land leader back me on this all the better i do not and will not speak on their behalf.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Yrthilian