Voting Decision by Council

[Seigheart]

I'd like a clarification by Council on why ZenTao lost the election. We voted, more people chose her over LS. Why is it that LS won?

What was the point of voting if they had already decided that LS would win?

[dst]

[quote][color="#CCCCCC"]Ann. 2428 - [2012-11-24 22:36:27 - Stage 11][/color]
[b]News:[/b]
Fang Archbane resigned from the Treasure Keepers' leader position. Since he was still in his probationary period, he isn't granted the right to choose his successor. This means that there is a new job opening. Please open a new forum thread where the interested players can apply. Time period for submissions: 3 days from this announcement. Once the 3 days have passed, we will ask the community to vote for who they want, or think is most suited as Treasure Keepers leader. [color=#ff0000][u][size=5]We hold the right for veto[/size][/u][/color].[/quote]

[Chewett]

[Redacted]

Edited December 18, 2012 by Chewett
Redacted

[lightsage]

Actually a more important thing is this:
From: [url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/13289-vote-for-the-new-head-of-treasure-keepers/"]http://magicduel.inv...easure-keepers/[/url]
[quote]
We will [u][b]weigh [/b][/u]your answers and based on them we'll make a decision.
[/quote]

Rather than counting the votes, they are weighed. The way mur did this a lot of factors would be taken into consideration to form the votescore. Such as the reputation of who's voting, arguments, previous votescore etc.

The council might disclose exactly how they weighed the votes, they might not.

[Ackshan Bemunah]

If I'm not mistaken veto refers to ignoring the platter of nominees and picking themselves...lightsage picked the right part of the post, not sure why you excluded that in phrasing your question seig...it was part of the original post (typing from phone sorry about style)

[Change]

The forum post gave me the impression that it was more of a 'who do you recommend for TK leader' kind of vote. The vote was split roughly equal. If it wasn't, the council would have some explaining to do.

[BFH]

Perhaps just read announcement:

[font="Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif"][size="2"][color="#666666"]"we feel that the TK's need a leader who has not previously been in the alliance to try and resolve the repeated issues they've had. [/color][/size][/font]"

[Change]

How much say do the other members of the TK have over the leaders decisions is what I wonder.

[Ackshan Bemunah]

I doubt we had more say than anyone else. Possibly less.

Makes sense to look at the announcement but it only gives the summarizing reason.

[Change]

? I don't mean over the voting, I mean over daily TK management decisions. That is, are all TKs responsible for the management problems of the past, or is it just the head's fault?

[Seigheart]

Uhhh, I dont know if I wasnt clear or not, but I thought I was....

I wanted to know, in more detail, their reason for picking LS, when the public made it clear they thought Zen would make a better leader.

It basically comes to my belief that it was a personal choice for the Council, because of who is on it, that influenced the choice, not an unbiased choice.

[Liberty4life]

[quote name='Seigheart' timestamp='1354756098' post='127549']
when the public made it clear they thought Zen would make a better leader
[/quote]

who did you come to that conclusion? by counting votes or?

have you never saw md elections? each vote is valued on persons veterancy (minor value) and reasoning/opinions (major value)

if you arent part of council how can you know exact outcome of above? can you weight reasons each person stated in same maner council does? i highly doubt it

[BFH]

[quote name='Seigheart' timestamp='1354756098' post='127549']
Uhhh, I dont know if I wasnt clear or not, but I thought I was....

I wanted to know, in more detail, their reason for picking LS, when the public made it clear they thought Zen would make a better leader.

It basically comes to my belief that it was a personal choice for the Council, because of who is on it, that influenced the choice, not an unbiased choice.
[/quote]

Which is the reason of why council should remain as a secret unknown group.

You are old in this game Seigh, you better know that a good explained vote counts even more than vets votes sometimes.

Yes, council can or not explain in what they based their selection, even if they already did so in a general manner, but that won;t change a thing. Zen already accepted council's decision and I value that a Lot, as it shows the kind of person she is. Now, the real question is why you haven't accepted it?

Now, as council announced I hope seeing Zen involved. Now that she knows she have the support of many people there is not any reason to not adventuring and actually do something that can impact MD in a positive way.

[Mallos]

[quote name='BFH' timestamp='1354757848' post='127554']
Which is the reason of why council should remain as a secret unknown group[/quote]

In my opinion, that would only make it easier to make such personal decisions.

I'm not saying they do or not.

[BFH]

[quote name='Falronn' timestamp='1354760226' post='127557']
In my opinion, that would only make it easier to make such personal decisions.

I'm not saying they do or not.
[/quote]

Them been know will make them useless. Without any kind of respect from players that could be considered friends.

Not knowing who the council members are some here are debating is they picked *Lightsage* for personal matters... Imagine if we knew them.

Council is a group Seigh, they take decisions in consensus, it is hard to just take it personal

[Seigheart]

Why do you assume I am not "accepting it"?

I quit the TKs because I stopped caring about it enough. I really don't care what happens to it now, I just don't get the Council's decision to completely override the majority of those who voted's opinion.

The problem with the Council being so called "anonymous" is that there is no one to check to make sure they are being partial and unbiased.

I know that MD elections are based on more than votes, but I want to see what they scored each vote by, and their own judging values, because, frankly, I don't believe that they even paid attention to it. LS won when he put his name forth because of all the... wait, what has LS done for MD besides been a professional AFKer in MD for the past year?

I don't trust the Council to be unbiased and partial. NOTHING in my entire experience with them has shown them to be just that.

[awiiya]

[quote name='Seigheart' timestamp='1354768150' post='127561']
I don't trust the Council to be unbiased and partial. NOTHING in my entire experience with them has shown them to be just that.
[/quote]

I second this sentiment.

Awi

[DARK DEMON]

[font=comic sans ms,cursive][color=#008000]Isn't Council supposed to be bound by public opinion? [/color][/font]


[font=comic sans ms,cursive][color=#008000]Public opinion in definition is what the Community thinks "out loud". The majority of the Community thinks that Zen should have been TK leader. Hence, my first statement in this post.[/color][/font]

[Pipstickz]

[quote name='Seigheart' timestamp='1354768150' post='127561']
Why do you assume I am not "accepting it"?

I quit the TKs because I stopped caring about it enough. I really don't care what happens to it now, I just don't get the Council's decision to completely override the majority of those who voted's opinion.

The problem with the Council being so called "anonymous" is that there is no one to check to make sure they are being partial and unbiased.

I know that MD elections are based on more than votes, but I want to see what they scored each vote by, and their own judging values, because, frankly, I don't believe that they even paid attention to it. LS won when he put his name forth because of all the... wait, what has LS done for MD besides been a professional AFKer in MD for the past year?

I don't trust the Council to be unbiased and partial. NOTHING in my entire experience with them has shown them to be just that.
[/quote]
So what exactly could they tell you that would make you believe that their decision was fair? They could lay out all their reasoning and logic on a silver platter and you'd still have no reason to believe that was the reasoning they actually used for the decision. Sure, the Council is stupid, but good luck challenging their decision. It's made, get over it. Lightsage will do a fine job.

Edited December 6, 2012 by Pipstickz

[awiiya]

[quote name='Pipstickz' timestamp='1354774359' post='127574']
So what exactly could they tell you that would make you believe that their decision was fair? They could lay out all their reasoning and logic on a silver platter and you'd still have no reason to believe that was the reasoning they actually used for the decision. Sure, the Council is stupid, but good luck challenging their decision. It's made, get over it. Lightsage will do a fine job.
[/quote]

Yes - actually. If they laid out their reasoning and logic on a silver platter we could then respond to it and give them a notion of how WE THE PEOPLE OF MD would like things to go, and would have a better understanding of how the organism that is the Council decides.

If I could understand them, I would better like them. This goes back to my statements last summer - the Council does not have a personality, and thus, is easy to hate and misunderstand. When we had Mur, we dealt with his highly subjective reasonings because we could relate to him and know him. The Council has no such benefit. It feels sterile, corporate, and distinctly unfriendly.

Awi

Edited December 6, 2012 by awiiya

[Mallos]

As such is why if they had names... We might be able to sympathize. And if we don't, so what people get bad reputations all the time.

Although I would not put councils decisions to be results of bad character on the players part, they are a council, and that needs to be understood.

We should not be being ran by an unknown source. And if you say that them having names will cause trouble then thats something they should have to deal with as part of their jobs. They have full power and we shouldn't be able to affect that.

But they should at least take strong consideration of our opinions if they truly care about MD.

Edited December 6, 2012 by Falronn

[Pipstickz]

[quote name='awiiya' timestamp='1354774632' post='127577']
Yes - actually. If they laid out their reasoning and logic on a silver platter we could then respond to it and give them a notion of how WE THE PEOPLE OF MD would like things to go, and would have a better understanding of how the organism that is the Council decides.

If I could understand them, I would better like them. This goes back to my statements last summer - the Council does not have a personality, and thus, is easy to hate and misunderstand. When we had Mur, we dealt with his highly subjective reasonings because we could relate to him and know him. The Council has no such benefit. It feels sterile, corporate, and distinctly unfriendly.

Awi
[/quote]
Yes, the Council is unfriendly, that is the point. If Mur were still making decisions, and he made a terrible, ridiculous decision, who would oppose him? After all, he made MD, he must know best. Look at all the smart things he's done in the past. But the Council? Anybody can rip into them as often as they like, and they don't even get a slap on the wrist, while someone speaking against Mur, I would draw Curiose's case to your attention, as it is the most obvious of them all, if I remember correctly: [url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/10810-day-of-absurdly-blind-justice-log/"]http://magicduel.inv...nd-justice-log/[/url]

The Council are a scapegoat for the decisions that either need to be made or would have been made by Mur. I would much rather call a faceless group stupid than somebody I (try to) know, somebody I admire, etc.

Edited December 6, 2012 by Pipstickz

[awiiya]

[quote name='Pipstickz' timestamp='1354775783' post='127580']
Yes, the Council is unfriendly, that is the point. If Mur were still making decisions, and he made a terrible, ridiculous decision, who would oppose him? After all, he made MD, he must know best. Look at all the smart things he's done in the past. But the Council? Anybody can rip into them as often as they like, and they don't even get a slap on the wrist, while someone speaking against Mur, I would draw Curiose's case to your attention, as it is the most obvious of them all, if I remember correctly: [url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/10810-day-of-absurdly-blind-justice-log/"]http://magicduel.inv...nd-justice-log/[/url]

The Council are a scapegoat for the decisions that either need to be made or would have been made by Mur. I would much rather call a faceless group stupid than somebody I (try to) know, somebody I admire, etc.
[/quote]

How is the Council being unfriendly "the point"? How is their "scapegoat" status making it easier for them to govern? How is the fact that they're so unlikeable making them want to do their job when they get no praise at all? How is it making us happier and more likely to remain in MD?

I'd argue it's making us unhappy, and more likely to leave. I'd argue it's also making their job not very fun, and since I doubt they get paid, it also makes them more likely to do less and care less.

Awi

[Pipstickz]

[quote name='awiiya' timestamp='1354775984' post='127581']
How is the Council being unfriendly "the point"? How is their "scapegoat" status making it easier for them to govern? How is the fact that they're so unlikeable making them want to do their job when they get no praise at all? How is it making us happier and more likely to remain in MD?

I'd argue it's making us unhappy, and more likely to leave. I'd argue it's also making their job not very fun, and since I doubt they get paid, it also makes them more likely to do less and care less.

Awi
[/quote]
No, their job is not easy and it should not be easy. If it were easy, Mur would still be doing it, no? The Council gets power in exchange for their effort. They get the reins, but they have to hold tight to make sure they don't slip and fall away. If everybody hates the Council so so much, they would all quit the game, leave it all behind, but people keep showing up. We're lucky we have any say at all, really. Do you think a relatively young world of warcraft player could be acknowledged by the greater community? You can forget about whoever it is that makes the decisions in that game, I assume. MD is what we make of it. We're given the surface of the pond, but the fun is exploring the depths, and the Council can't take that from you by making the superficial decisions that just need to be made.

[Kaya]

MD elections aren't all that complicated. You havea person or group of persons (Mur/council) who have the power to make the decisions. That group has an opinion, but keeps that oppinion to themselfes until all votes have been casted. Then they look if there are any arguments strong enough to change their opinion. If not they'll stick to it.

This time public oppinion seemed to slightly favor Zen, but not enough to change their mind. Like I said in my eyes both are able to do the job well (although I was slightly disappointed to see the age limit for new TKs disappear) so the differences were purely circumstantial and therefore not enough to change their oppinion.