Aeoshattr

Before I say anything, I did like that reply. Genuinely. Also, for clarification. There are currently two ideas circulating: 1. Use the follower system as described in the first post. 2. Change NOTHING other than who is able to invite (I.E leave alliances EXACTLY as they are and only allow the leader to invite people in). 1. NOW you are debating my ideas. Until now, you've been trying to dismiss them and say I have no right to argue about this because I have not effectively led a MD alliance before. That is not debating. THIS is. 2. Which is exactly what I suggested afterwards. Pip came with the idea that alliances do not need to change much, but we could only allow leaders to invite people in and keep everything else unchanged. IF this is going to work, then IF you indeed do not trust the leader, want to invite someone in to change something, then YOU have to work yourself. Not just invite Eon to do the job for you (please don't take this personally, but you are the best example I can think of, Eon). How does upping your loyalty yourself, in order to change the alliance look more lazy than inviting someone from the outside to do the dirty work for you? 3. Yes! I did not read what I said that way, and it would have helped monumentally if you had just said that from the beginning! I agree with you there, I did not consider that. However, the way I see it, (this is option 1 from the beginning of the post) the fewer people in the alliance, the fewer you have to "buy" in order to get in that alliance. I think that may counterbalance it, but I may be wrong.

Um. Do you seriously not think about people inside the alliance growing loyalty to overgrow the current leader and thus enable someone that is active to become a leader? If anyone, I was expecting you to think about that and to support it considering how up and over you're about hard work instead of favours/begging/whatnot. Have it like the MP6 system. If a player is inactive for idk, 10 days they are removed from the follower tree. So then only active players count. This won't make alliances rock solid. I just get the feeling you're too lazy to get over this impediment and end up whining about it. Not as diplomatic as usual, but I ran out of niceness early in the morning.

Despite giving my two cents, I don't want to let this derail completely, as I am interested in reaching some sort of.... finality to it, one way or the other. I think Pip suggested something along the lines of "keep the old system and allow only the leader to invite people in the alliance". What do you all think? Yes or no (instead of the follower system)?

Second sermon of Pain: Date&Time: Wednesday, 26th of November, 22:00 ST Location: Path of loneliness Topic: Necessity of Pain, short term and long term implications. As always, all are welcome. Submit your homework if you haven't yet! Also remember to jump in and contribute at any moment during the sermon, if you have something to say. LOGS (cleaned): [spoiler] [26/11/14 22:12] Aeoshattr:Hmm. *looks at the sky* Perhaps it is time to start? [26/11/14 22:15] Aeoshattr:Shall I? [26/11/14 22:15] :*Sunfire* nods [26/11/14 22:15] Lania:You shall, as I know that in an hour or 2 you'll turn in a sleepy head. :P [26/11/14 22:15] Aeoshattr:It shouldn't take more than an hour *smiles* [26/11/14 22:16] Aeoshattr:Anyway, thank you all for coming. [26/11/14 22:16] Lania: *whispers to Lin* Can't attack that one. No alliance. *turns and nods at Aeo* . [26/11/14 22:17] Aeoshattr:Last time, I believe we discussed the ways in which pain can be classified and whether those classifications are accurate or not [26/11/14 22:18] Aeoshattr:I also believe I introduced the concept of necessity of pain - which I would like to discuss today [26/11/14 22:20] Aeoshattr:So... I will begin by stating that I believe pain is necessary. Both physical and emotional, both acute and dull pain. Do you all agree? [26/11/14 22:20] Lania:Yes. [26/11/14 22:20] *Sunfire*:yes [26/11/14 22:21] Aeoshattr: *chuckles* Then let me reiterate a question from last time. What is the purpose of grieving? [26/11/14 22:21] Lania:Learning? [26/11/14 22:21] Aeoshattr:Please, go on Lani *smiles* [26/11/14 22:21] *Sunfire*:to form a counter for happyness [26/11/14 22:22] :Lintara smiles and waves to Azull and continues listening [26/11/14 22:22] Lania:Well. The most painful lessons are the best remembered and, as Sunny says, in order to appreciate the state of being well, you need its counter part. [26/11/14 22:23] Aeoshattr: *bows his head to Azull before continuing* I was on the verge of disagreeing with what Sun said, but yes, you have a point, Lani. [26/11/14 22:23] Aeoshattr:In a way - one could argue that grieving for someone that is -dead- has no purpose at all. It will not bring them back. It will not help you move on. [26/11/14 22:23] Aeoshattr:However, what Lani said is not incorrect either - one cannot appreciate happiness without times of pain. [26/11/14 22:24] Lania:No, but at some point its a natural reaction. [26/11/14 22:24] Aeoshattr: *nods* Of course - and nature rarely does something without a purpose. That is what I was trying to get at. If grieving is natural... what is its purpose? How does it help the individual? [26/11/14 22:25] Lania:Well...there are a few theories. [26/11/14 22:25] *Sunfire*: *nods to Lania* we have an emotional response to a feeling of missing from something that formed our life for a part [26/11/14 22:25] Aeoshattr: *chuckles* Please, go on [26/11/14 22:25] Aeoshattr:Both of you [26/11/14 22:26] Lania:One would be: making the individual stronger, emotionally. Second would be that it helps with relieving the tension. [26/11/14 22:26] *Sunfire*:by having a sort of emotional pain, we can get a closure on this feeling since we have had a sensation of suffering from this lack [26/11/14 22:26] Lania:That's what comes to mind now, anyway. [26/11/14 22:27] :Aeoshattr nods [26/11/14 22:28] Aeoshattr:I quite agree with that - both of you, on this matter. Pain does indeed enforce a closure to the weakened state an individual is left in after losing someone. [26/11/14 22:28] *Sunfire*:when we have learned to harnass this feeling we can learn to reuse the spot where the past person/item used to be [26/11/14 22:29] :Lania agrees [26/11/14 22:29] Aeoshattr: *chuckles* But do you truly wish to recycle that spot? [26/11/14 22:29] blackshade rider:i am here Aeoshattr [26/11/14 22:29] Aeoshattr: *grins* I will leave this particular example for next time - though think about it, if you so wish [26/11/14 22:29] :Lintara smiles and waves to Blackshade [26/11/14 22:30] *Sunfire*:we need to, our "capacity" is limited [26/11/14 22:30] Lania:Sometimes you have no choice. [26/11/14 22:30] :Aeoshattr nods to blackshade [26/11/14 22:31] Aeoshattr:Well then, I actually got very satisfactory answers - That was, I think, the toughest question I had. [26/11/14 22:33] Aeoshattr:Let's see. *rubs his chin* [26/11/14 22:33] Lania:So...time for homework? *chuckes* [26/11/14 22:33] Aeoshattr: *chuckles* Not yet. I still have a few more points. [26/11/14 22:33] Aeoshattr: *rubs his chin* Well then, thinking about this realm. [26/11/14 22:34] Aeoshattr:To the most basic level... despite our perception, we are mostly heat. I dare say little to no matter exists in our composition. [26/11/14 22:34] Aeoshattr:Anyone disagrees? [26/11/14 22:34] *Sunfire*:"our"? [26/11/14 22:35] Lania:I'm not sure what to say about that, really. [26/11/14 22:35] Aeoshattr: *nods, taking out one of his knives, slashing his wrist and watching the blood drip down* What do you see here? [26/11/14 22:35] Lania:A masochist. *chuckles* [26/11/14 22:35] Lintara:You cutting yourself again. And bleeding. Again. [26/11/14 22:36] blackshade rider:you offer to the shades [26/11/14 22:36] Aeoshattr: *chuckles* More specifically. [26/11/14 22:36] Aeoshattr:The wound bleeds, does it not? [26/11/14 22:36] Lania:A bleeding vein and lots of mess. Yes. [26/11/14 22:36] blackshade rider:yes [26/11/14 22:36] Aeoshattr:But can we be sure it's really blood, or that it is just something we perceive as blood? [26/11/14 22:37] *Sunfire*:depends on what you describe as blood [26/11/14 22:37] Lania:We'd need and expert. *looks for Eara* Unfortunatelly we don't have one [26/11/14 22:38] blackshade rider:blood is an energy source [26/11/14 22:38] *Sunfire*:if it is the life liquid of a living form, then yes [26/11/14 22:38] Aeoshattr: *chuckles* Well, my point is... we see it as blood, but can't be sure it's real blood. [26/11/14 22:38] :*Sunfire* nods to blackrider [26/11/14 22:38] Aeoshattr:We can't even be sure it's a liquid *chuckles* What's your blood, Sun? [26/11/14 22:39] *Sunfire*:i call it liquid fire or liquid sunshine, i dont really know what it is [26/11/14 22:39] blackshade rider:it not liquid nor solid it is both [26/11/14 22:39] Lania:Liquid sunshine. *chuckles to herself* That is soo..cute. [26/11/14 22:39] Aeoshattr: *chuckles* Well, going back. If my assumption is correct and there is indeed very little matter to us... Then what exactly -is- pain for us? [26/11/14 22:40] Aeoshattr: (and yes, Sunfire's made of sunshine and unicorn puke) [26/11/14 22:40] *Sunfire*:a mental stymulus [26/11/14 22:40] Lania:Alteration of our original form? [26/11/14 22:40] Lania:Violent alteration, of course. [26/11/14 22:40] :Aeoshattr points to Lani [26/11/14 22:41] Aeoshattr:Physical pain, indeed! [26/11/14 22:41] Aeoshattr:Or... what we perceive as physical pain at least. [26/11/14 22:41] Aeoshattr:Emotional pain should be unaffected by what form we take, am I correct? [26/11/14 22:42] Lania:No. Because the chemical reactions in a living body influence the mental state. [26/11/14 22:42] *Sunfire*:unless the pain is based on our displeasure of our form, but other than that, no [26/11/14 22:42] Lania:Or something like that.... [26/11/14 22:42] blackshade rider:but how can we be sure that we arent already in our original form but instead a spell unpon us to make us blind to the matter [26/11/14 22:42] Aeoshattr: *chuckles* Correct, both of you! [26/11/14 22:43] Aeoshattr:Hm. I would suppose you can test that by looking at the surroundings, Blackshade [26/11/14 22:43] Aeoshattr:And how we seem to interact with the world. Our interaction shouldn't be limited by our perception, in most ways. [26/11/14 22:43] *Sunfire*:because your surroundings are okay, doesnt mean you are rightly formed [26/11/14 22:44] *Sunfire*:both mentally and physically [26/11/14 22:44] Aeoshattr:Let's say Val can't see. If I put a boulder in his way so he trips: he can't see the boulder, but he trips on it. The boulder exists [26/11/14 22:44] blackshade rider:yes but what if the surrondings are always changing then how can you be sure mentally and phsicaly [26/11/14 22:45] *Sunfire*:can he be certain it is a boulder? [26/11/14 22:45] blackshade rider:or was it an illusion [26/11/14 22:45] Aeoshattr:No - however the boulder is independent of his perception. It is there whether he sees it or not [26/11/14 22:45] Aeoshattr:He only knows he tripped on something. [26/11/14 22:46] Aeoshattr:Thus interaction can tell us about this world - at least in broad terms. [26/11/14 22:46] Aeoshattr:Returning. If we are indeed beings of heat, then I am unsure about the exact way in which emotional pain originates and manifests. [26/11/14 22:46] *Sunfire*:very basic information tho [26/11/14 22:46] Valoryn: *shakes his walking stick* Or he can be smart enough to use his stick and avoid tripping on the boulder. [26/11/14 22:46] :Lania chuckles [26/11/14 22:47] :Aeoshattr chuckles at Val [26/11/14 22:47] Aeoshattr:I have two hypotheses, so far: [26/11/14 22:47] Aeoshattr:One: there is no correlation between physical and emotional pain. [26/11/14 22:48] Aeoshattr:If we are beings of heat, the emotional and physical pains are separate. The interconnections between them are severed because there is no body, per se. [26/11/14 22:49] Aeoshattr:Thus physical pain originates from a modification of our form, and the emotional pain has a purely mental origin [26/11/14 22:49] Aeoshattr:However, I have a second hypothesis, which I am currently inclined more to [26/11/14 22:50] :Lania listens [26/11/14 22:50] Aeoshattr:Emotional and physical pain are identical for us. [26/11/14 22:50] Aeoshattr:Our form is our mind - our soul. We are beings of heat. [26/11/14 22:51] Aeoshattr:Thus an alteration of our form which would result in physical pain also corresponds to a "direct" emotional wound [26/11/14 22:51] blackshade rider:yes but what happens if we run out of heat we perish [26/11/14 22:51] Aeoshattr: *nods* If you run -completely- out of heat, you die, by a standard definition of death. [26/11/14 22:51] Lania:Like...like getting gastritis from too much suffering >_> [26/11/14 22:51] Aeoshattr:You are erased. If you lose all stable and unstable heat [26/11/14 22:52] :Aeoshattr nods to Lani and then points to the gaping hole in his chest [26/11/14 22:52] Lania: *gasps a little, eyes wide open* Oh... [26/11/14 22:53] *Sunfire*:our mind can be seperated from our form [26/11/14 22:53] *Sunfire*:for example when we die [26/11/14 22:53] Lania: *whispers to Aeo* If there's anything left of your heart, the little spider will mend it with webs. *smiles* . [26/11/14 22:53] Aeoshattr: *nods* I currently cannot explain ghosts. [26/11/14 22:54] Aeoshattr:However, it takes death to separate our mind from our soul, if that is the only example. I can't think of a different one [26/11/14 22:54] Aeoshattr: (mind from form) [26/11/14 22:54] Justin Case:astral projection? [26/11/14 22:55] *Sunfire*:when we dream we enter a differnt perception, is it out of form? [26/11/14 22:55] Lania:Could be, Justin. [26/11/14 22:55] Aeoshattr:Dreams are... very real here. [26/11/14 22:55] :Aeoshattr chuckles [26/11/14 22:55] Azrafar:Hmm... [26/11/14 22:55] Aeoshattr:Ask Raven, if you get the chance. [26/11/14 22:56] blackshade rider:yes but can we control what happens in it [26/11/14 22:56] Aeoshattr:To an extent, yes. [26/11/14 22:56] *Sunfire*:lucid dreaming [26/11/14 22:57] Aeoshattr: (dreams are an actual thing in MD o.o) [26/11/14 22:57] :Azrafar nods [26/11/14 22:57] Aeoshattr: (Though I don't know anyone else capable of putting you in a dream other than Raven) [26/11/14 22:57] Lintara: ( *coughs* Rhaegar *coughs* ) [26/11/14 22:57] blackshade rider:yes because it is the depth of the dream that makes us see what could be the real world as to what is fake [26/11/14 22:57] *Sunfire*: (Princ Rhaegar, and Phantom used to) [26/11/14 22:58] :Lania nods at Azrafar [26/11/14 22:58] Aeoshattr: *nods* Returning. *rubs his chin* . [26/11/14 22:58] Aeoshattr:Hm. *reads through a scroll* I actually think I went through most points I wanted to go through for today [26/11/14 22:59] Aeoshattr:Are there any aspects of Pain, related to our conversation, that anyone would like to raise? [26/11/14 22:59] :Lania thinks, thinks [26/11/14 23:00] Lania:I wanted to ask what of the ones that enjoy pain, but I am nit sure if its relevant. [26/11/14 23:00] *Sunfire*:is there a thing as permanent pain? [26/11/14 23:01] Aeoshattr: *nods* I believe permanent pain exists, indeed. [26/11/14 23:02] :Lintara smiles and waves to Ailith [26/11/14 23:02] Aeoshattr:As for pain enjoyment... I wanted to ask about that. It's quite peculiar, isn't it? [26/11/14 23:02] :Ailith smiles warmly to all and curtsies [26/11/14 23:02] :*Sunfire* smiles at Ailith and nods [26/11/14 23:02] Lania:It is. Do they actually learn anything if they enjoy it? [26/11/14 23:03] Azrafar:I missed most of it, but yes, pain enjoyment is interesting. [26/11/14 23:03] Aeoshattr: *nods* Indeed! Does Pain serve its purpose for them, then? [26/11/14 23:04] Azrafar:Hmmm... I remember once I enjoyed pain. It made me laugh. [26/11/14 23:04] *Sunfire*:just like permanent happyness, i think it starts losing its meaning then, it becomes "normal" [26/11/14 23:05] Aeoshattr: *nods* The way I see pain enjoyment... I see it with thresholds. [26/11/14 23:05] Lania:Oh! And what of those who cause themselves pain to escape another form of pain. [26/11/14 23:05] Aeoshattr:Pain could be enjoyed to a point, but afterwards, it does become true Pain again. [26/11/14 23:06] Aeoshattr: *nods to Lani* I think I hinted at that last time. A greater pain can numb a lesser one. [26/11/14 23:06] Azrafar:Well, it all depends wich kind of pain. physical pain can cause a pain response. [26/11/14 23:06] Lania:Oh. *smiles* I missed the other one. Sorry. [26/11/14 23:07] Aeoshattr:No need to be sorry, Lani *smiles* [26/11/14 23:07] *Sunfire*:what of those claiming to be immune of pain [26/11/14 23:07] Aeoshattr:As for permanent pain, yes, Sun is right. It becomes "normal". All long-termed stimuli cause adaptation and become "normal" [26/11/14 23:08] Aeoshattr:There are, indeed, some incapable of feeling pain. However, they can't draw pleasure from it if they can't feel it, can they? [26/11/14 23:08] Azrafar:I think those who are "immune" developed a rapid strong response to it. [26/11/14 23:08] *Sunfire*:how is it possible? [26/11/14 23:08] Lania:I think they are either very strong in andurance or their pain receptors don't work well. [26/11/14 23:09] Azrafar:Ignoring pain needs strong will and self control. Embracing it is an entirely differnt matter. [26/11/14 23:09] Aeoshattr: *nods* Those that are truly immune cannot perceive pain. Like eye-less people can't perceive light [26/11/14 23:09] Aeoshattr:Ignoring pain is something different. [26/11/14 23:10] Azrafar:Oh, I see. [26/11/14 23:11] *Sunfire*:are they still a full form if they cannot perceive pain? [26/11/14 23:11] Aeoshattr: (Though there is a very interesting case in which you can "sense" light but not "perceive" it. I.E your eyes function, but you are not aware of light) [26/11/14 23:12] Lania:They could be, just evolved differently. But what way of learning, similar to ours through pain, do they have? [26/11/14 23:12] Aeoshattr: *nods* They can be. But if they cannot perceive pain, then they ought to take good care of their form, as they are unlikely to realise if something goes wrong [26/11/14 23:12] Lania:or would they have. :P [26/11/14 23:12] Azrafar:Yes, not feeling pain is not always beneficial. In fact, it is rarely beneficial. [26/11/14 23:16] Aeoshattr: *to Lani* I'd say that's something for next time [26/11/14 23:16] Lania:Oh...I am not sure if this is relevant, but pain has another function. [26/11/14 23:16] Lania:Oh alright. :P [26/11/14 23:16] :Aeoshattr grins [26/11/14 23:17] Aeoshattr:Hm. Anything else? [26/11/14 23:17] Lania:One more thought. [26/11/14 23:18] Lania:Pain also signals that there is something wrong in the body and...this one is from Asthir: it signifies that you are alive. *smiles* [26/11/14 23:19] :Aeoshattr chuckles and nods [26/11/14 23:19] Lania:That's it. I rest my case. *chuckles* [26/11/14 23:19] Lintara:Hurm, *chuckles* that sounds familiar [26/11/14 23:19] Valoryn:Awfully familiar. *chuckles quietly* [26/11/14 23:22] Aeoshattr: *nods* Well then, thank you all for coming and participating [26/11/14 23:23] :Lania nods [26/11/14 23:23] :*Sunfire* nods [26/11/14 23:23] :Azrafar nods [26/11/14 23:23] Lintara:Thanks for holding it Aeo! *tilts her head* Will your hand be alright or shall we go bandage it again? [26/11/14 23:23] Aeoshattr: *nods* It'll be fine. I think it stopped bleeding [26/11/14 23:24] Lintara:Hmm, okay [26/11/14 23:24] Aeoshattr: (Ailith? :) ) [26/11/14 23:25] Lania:I'll retreat now. *smiles and gets up* [26/11/14 23:25] :[Spell] To my parchment scrollbook [/spoiler] TL;DR (summary) [spoiler] How do we define Pain in MD terms, where as far as I am aware, we are beings of heat/energy or in other words souls. How are physical and emotional pain different for such a being? Alteration of one's form (be it heat or identity - Wiiya) may be an answer, but then so, can one distinguish between physical and emotional pain anymore? For the second part, pain serves the purpose of avoiding danger, in most cases, but does this apply to those that enjoy pain? Is there a clear cut answer? [/spoiler]

I was expecting a lot more debate considering how much people were talking about this in the meeting. At any rate, I like Pip's idea (as a compromise idea, so to speak) as it solves a lot of the issues that the new follower system was attempting to address, without requiring too much modification (I.E only allow the leader to invite people, as opposed to anyone in the alliance, currently). Sure, it keeps the loyalty system which feels a bit artificial (to me), but it's a simple solution to implement (the way I see it) rather than overhaul the system completely with the follower system. Thoughts?

Well. So far, if you force someone into the alliance, they can only be forced in as leaders, not as members. The way I read what I wrote in my first post, at least. Members still get invited as usual but the system could assign them to follow the current leader forcibly once they are invited. They can then follow any other ally member and retain the badge, as long as someone along the follower tree is following the current leader. EDIT: ok, say you force a new leader in, the old leader gets kicked, because he follows himself, not another ally member or its current leader. Same happens to the forced leader, if the players decide to follow someone else before he gets to follow another ally member. Does that make sense? EDIT: Recursivity makes my brain hurt.

Following the discussions @ Willow's Shop on the 21st of November, we were instructed to continue the debate of a new system for alliance leadership on the forums. 1. So far, the idea that took up most of the conversation was Rophs' follower system. In other words: to be a member of the alliance you must follow its leader (or another member of the alliance which follows the leader, etc. I am not good with recursivity, someone please proof-read this for me). whomever has most followers (probably better phrased, the largest follower tree) from the alliance is its leader. I.E. - if you are not in the alliance but 50% of its members suddenly follow you, then you are slapped with a badge and become its leader. Similarly, once becoming a leader, the system should automatically force you to follow yourself. I personally support this and I have an idea for it: apply alliance loyalty to it. In other words, the more loyalty a follower has, the more their "vote" counts, similar to citizenship. I think this could enable currently military alliances to function with the proposed system. However, I caveat majorly saying that I have just had this idea and there may be major implications that I haven't grasped yet. Please point them out constructively, as I am likely to genuinely not have considered severe implications. EDIT: Alliance leadership, not land leadership. Cerebral flatulence.

Hm. I'll give this a try. Jest A broken path your eyes must follow Along dull lines that we once traced. Love! Why have you left me hollow? A few more steps, more tears misplaced. Your touch my skin must feel once more, To rake your nails across my chest; Alas! Your love has left me sore. To you, I know 'twas but a jest. May When the eye of May glares down Under the old linden I rest. The way the wind twirls your gown... Your ballet has me obsessed. Prance and jump and swing and sway! Make good use of all your charms. Dance! Dance! Dance your mind away; Come and wither in my arms.

Happy birthday to an awesome artist!

I'm active every day. I am possibly disliked because I tend to disagree with most people - I do not know about that. I can vary from too humble to too self-centred. I let the people judge me. I am more than willing to get involved, should it be deemed that I am needed; I like writing, RP-ing and similar activities. I was and am still aiming for the role of Avatar of Pain, detailed in another topic on the forums: http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/15837-avatar-of-pain/ I hope this is compatible with some of the roles that are currently needed.

I did say "perhaps it's best jail is not applied" and tried to come with some alternative solutions. As I said in my post, that really was what I could think of at the moment. I'm trying to give alternatives to jail, killing, etc. I hope someone can come up with ideas better than mine. I don't care for jail. I don't mind it being applied or not, but I am aware it would be controversial and since I am neutral towards it, I thought alternative solutions could be in applied. And IMO jail IS a social solution to crime. That's why we don't execute people anymore and instead jail them and/or try to rehabilitate them. Applies IRL and could apply to an extent in MD. But see above: I'm neutral towards it.

I think Jail could be an option, though I have a feeling it will be awfully controversial and perhaps it's for the best this is not applied. Other than that, there could be a prolonged attack restriction (24h attacklock let's say). Prolonged movelock. Prolonged slow (if the idea suggested a few weeks ago on the forums caught on). Putting the player in an illusion that restricts them in a way or another. Also, I think it would be interesting to be able to "knock" a player to a different mindpower for a limited time, restricting the players they can fight with and (I think?) the creatures they can use. That's what I can give off the top of my head.

Okay, I'll give you that. I agree with you here. I wouldn't like the existence of thieves among us. I wouldn't like the existence of vengeful players with lots of spells (though I doubt there are none already in the game). But following what you just said above, why should there be murderers among us? Isn't killing more severe than stealing? I am saying that killing is NOT ok in general (IRL for instance) - therefore how could I possibly suggest that stealing would be ok? That is why I am saying it would seem natural for there to be some sort of "implications" for killing another player, or at least the possibility for there to be repercussions. At any rate, my point was nowhere near this. I won't reiterate it as it will go off-topic. I'm only replying because I feel this is a gross misinterpretation of what I said. I find this similar to when the spell cooldown was suggested you argued that nobody has the authority to restrict what someone does with the spells they have. I.E. "I will use them because I can and I want to, nananana". 1. I believe the purpose of this whole "let's have a detective" thing is to get players moving when someone dies. Rather than go "oh that's a shame, let them fend for themselves while they're dead" it might encourage them to -do- something. Not just speculate "I think it's X who did it" - they would need to interact with others, get under suspects' skins, etc in order to obtain proof that X is the killer. This isn't about players agreeing that nobody should be dead. This is about inciting some activity when someone dies, giving people a direction, somewhere to go and something to do. I'm suggesting that perhaps friends of the deceased might want to contribute to the warrant officer's investigation; or that the warrant officer might actually demand their contribution. The role seems rather flexible. 2. Or it might tell something about the resources at their disposal, relationships, etc, not about them directly. I don't find that argument valid. 3. I will try not to be too aggressive about this, but this really isn't about punishing killers; if anything, the "plotter" will be condemned, not the killer. And even so, it isn't about punishing. Nobody's trying to say that killing is against game rules and thus it should be punishable. I believe the argument is "killing is morally wrong" and thus someone who decides to have someone killed should face the possibility of repercussions for their actions. The punishment doesn't even have to be jail - and sometimes, the "warrant officer" may not even be notified of the kill or called to help in the first place. However suggesting that killers are being punished just sounds like victimisation. (vaguely related, most kill items I've seen have a cooldown, whereas most resurrect items I have seen are single use - thus it's a lot harder for people with resurrection items to do their jobs, IMO and that forces them to be a lot more selective) I myself have asked for a kill not only once, so this would put me in a position where I could be condemned and yet I argue for it. If anything, this new role should make killing more interesting and exciting. TL;DR - Think about the context being roleplay rather than game rules (i.e. stuff you can get banned for). I think this role could make killing and resurrection a lot more exciting than they are now. I won't be posting any further here.

Also, this. How about we let the "ghost" walk and roam around, as usual, but have it re-summoned to the graveyard say every 10 minutes? EDIT: that was meant to be in the post above, didn't realise that it would make a new post if I use "quote" when editing my old post.

Derailed topic. To get back to it, I think Grido's idea is great. Why? I believe a few weeks ago we had an argument about countering social issues with social means and this gives people the power to do so. I see NoOne's point about otherarmy - however, the way I think of the whole role (to relate it to "social issues") is something like this: in MD, the use of spells is liberally permitted. Use them as you see fit. However, I can't think of a single example of a society where killing (let's say murder, not execution) isn't condemned by society. Thus the act of murdering someone would be condemnable and I like the idea of someone having the responsibility of bringing murderers (or rather those that asked/planned murders, in the context of MD) to justice. I think it adds a nice element of complexity to killing, which so far really is "I'll give you 1 gold to knife someone" (put in rather non-diplomatic terms). I think it's perfectly reasonable to make killing people more difficult and add repercussions for it. Revival on its own isn't easy - you can't just say "I'll pay you one gold to revive me". I can give Mya's revival as an example (yes, I am well aware that LR has a revival item and as a former citizen I voted that we use it): we were asked to gather resources on her behalf, we tried to get some activity going with the heat jar swapping, etc. It was nowhere near as quick and easy as killing her. To the killers: there are a myriad of ways in which you can avoid being caught, and I am convinced you can manage it. It just needs a bit of creativity and a tad more effort than before. I am unsure how to implement the feature, and I agree on one thing: I don't think the role should just be slapped on someone. I suggest we either have nominations and a vote, for someone that the community believes is suitable for the role (with solid arguments, not just "I nominate X because it's convenient for me". Or we could have a trial period: someone sets cases that candidates have to solve. Or both. There are ways in which we can make this work and I believe it would be a great social addition to MD. I would ask that we don't bicker over things that are off topic. Sure, some spells have permanent effects. Some rituals have permanent effects too (I'm pretty sure you can cause stat damage with regular rituals too, not just otherarmy). Why wouldn't we punish people leaving players with negative VP of the order of millions? My point is, we can discuss this in another topic. This is about adding complexity and stirring social interaction throughout MD. I'd like to see people work towards this, or even against it, but argument it and stay on topic. Hope that isn't considered backseat modding or whatnot and I hope I managed to get my point across.

Credits/Stats/VE/VP etc. Stuff that can't be transferred. Furthermore, as far as I know, creatures and items can't be transferred between alts in the first place.

Rophs, what have you done. Nicely done, Kyphis.

First sermon of Pain: Date&Time: Sunday, 16th of November, 22:00 ST Location: Path of Loneliness Topic: Definition, Introduction, Short debates on ways to define and see pain. All are welcome - my only request is that if you decide to attend, please also actively participate. I will try and make this as interactive as possible, I don't want to hold a lecture. LOGS (cleaned): [spoiler] [16/11/14 22:00] :Aeoshattr holds his right arm out to the side, making the five obsidian orbs roll out from his sleeve and float around him [16/11/14 22:02] Aeoshattr:I will wait a few more minutes, in case anyone is running late. [16/11/14 22:02] Lintara:Ohhh... *watches the orbs with an expression of a playful kitten* . [16/11/14 22:02] Aeoshattr: *chuckles* Careful. You don't want to touch those. [16/11/14 22:03] :Assira the Black leans against the wall [16/11/14 22:03] Lintara: *jumps slightly at the sound, blinking, then shakes her head and chuckles* Right! [16/11/14 22:03] Aeoshattr: *nods* Assira. [16/11/14 22:03] Lintara: *smiles and waves* Hi Assira! [16/11/14 22:04] Assira the Black:Hello. [16/11/14 22:04] :Ailith smiles and nods to Assira [16/11/14 22:04] Azkhael:As always, if anyone would require me to stop attacking, you need only ask. [16/11/14 22:04] Assira the Black:How are things going? [16/11/14 22:05] Azkhael:Hello, Azull, Assira. [16/11/14 22:05] Lintara:Well so far, thanks. How about you? Hi Azull! [16/11/14 22:05] Aeoshattr: *chuckles, holding one orb in his right hand, stroking his thumb over it, seemingly breaking a shard off* I would say things are going well. [16/11/14 22:05] Aeoshattr: *bows his head* King Azull. [16/11/14 22:05] Azull: *nods* Greetings [16/11/14 22:06] :Assira the Black nods to Azull [16/11/14 22:07] :Aeoshattr chuckles, letting the orb float away, holding a sharp black sliver in his fingers [16/11/14 22:08] Aeoshattr:Well then, I will get started; to begin, I would like to thank you all for taking some of your time to be here. [16/11/14 22:09] Aeoshattr: *holds the sliver in his palm, closing his fist around it* I believe I am correct in saying that pain is a part of each and everyone's life - an aspect that is unavoidable and, in a way, necessary [16/11/14 22:10] :Aeoshattr chuckles, pacing around slowly [16/11/14 22:11] Aeoshattr:Pain is easy to understand, isn't it? [16/11/14 22:11] Lintara:Hurm, it's not exactly a very fun thing.... *shrugs and smiles* But it happens. [16/11/14 22:11] Aeoshattr:Even the most primitive creature reacts to it; it may react to nothing else, but it will certainly react to pain. [16/11/14 22:12] Aeoshattr:However, in the case of creatures like us... pain can sometimes mean more. If I were to ask how could one classify pain, what would you suggest? [16/11/14 22:14] Assira the Black:mental, physical, spritual, duration, and intensity. [16/11/14 22:14] Aeoshattr: *nods* Spot on, Assira. *grins* . [16/11/14 22:15] Aeoshattr:Indeed, we usually split pain largely into emotional and physical and then further into acute or dull. [16/11/14 22:16] Aeoshattr:Yet I dare ask - is this not artificial? *opens his palm, holding the black sliver between his index and middle fingers* [16/11/14 22:16] Aeoshattr:To an extent... Physical and emotional pain are truly different; both in what caused them and in what can alleviate them. [16/11/14 22:17] :Aeoshattr slowly pushes the sharp shard through his left palm [16/11/14 22:18] :Ailith watches Aeo thoughtfully [16/11/14 22:19] Aeoshattr:However, the division between the two is artificial, I believe. Why so? Sometimes, physical pain and emotional pain are indistinguishable. [16/11/14 22:19] Aeoshattr:Especially to the one experiencing them. [16/11/14 22:20] Aeoshattr:However, what I believe is truly worth looking into is the difference between sharp, acute pain and the dull, throbbing pain. [16/11/14 22:21] Aeoshattr:Could someone think of an example of each? [16/11/14 22:21] Aeoshattr:Say... I thrust this shard through my palm. [16/11/14 22:21] Aeoshattr:At first, the physical pain is acute. Sharp, like the shard [16/11/14 22:22] Aeoshattr:However, if I wait, that pain will vanish and within minutes, it will be replaced by a different sensation. [16/11/14 22:22] Aeoshattr: *slowly pulls the shard out, some blood trickling down his fingers* Now can anyone give me an example of emotional pain behaving that way? [16/11/14 22:24] Azkhael:First, I must ask you, in what way are they indistinguishable? [16/11/14 22:24] Assira the Black:Heartbreak then loneliness. *shrugs* [16/11/14 22:25] Aeoshattr: *grins* Well, I am glad someone asked. I had hoped to get away with that. [16/11/14 22:25] Aeoshattr: *also nods at Assira* Again, spot on. [16/11/14 22:26] Aeoshattr:The way in which our minds and bodies react to pain, both emotional and physical, is very similar, especially after exceeding a certain threshold. [16/11/14 22:28] Aeoshattr:Furthermore, physical pain is often numbed by emotional pain. [16/11/14 22:28] Aeoshattr:Now I am uncertain if this also goes the other way around - it could be an aspect worth exploring. [16/11/14 22:29] Aeoshattr:Now why do you think there is this distinction between immediate pain and the one that comes after a while? [16/11/14 22:32] Azkhael:Physical pain and psychological suffering share have some common elements, including in those areas they are processed; physical pain is psychologically influenceable (...) [16/11/14 22:32] Azkhael:to a given extent, and so the other way around. [16/11/14 22:33] AmberRune:Brain in disbelief. More shocked immediately, wakes up and collects sensory information after a while [16/11/14 22:33] Aeoshattr: *nods* That is correct, indeed. Often psychological pain can be felt directly as physical pain (psychosomatic) [16/11/14 22:33] Aeoshattr: *nods at Amber* That is what I was getting at. Realisation. [16/11/14 22:34] Aeoshattr: (not 100% correct irl, but close enough; no point in going into minute details about types of neurons) [16/11/14 22:34] Aeoshattr:Most of the time, Realisation - understanding of the implications that whatever caused the acute pain hurt more. [16/11/14 22:34] Aeoshattr: (hurts*) [16/11/14 22:35] Azkhael:But those differences and similarities are most likely the result of the still dominantly phenomenological understanding of pain. [16/11/14 22:37] Aeoshattr:In a way, yes. You could say they are "laymen's" classifications. [16/11/14 22:37] Azkhael:In all likelihood (...) there are systems exclusive to either of the two, and some mutual. [16/11/14 22:37] Aeoshattr:Indeed, there is likely overlap between the two - it is arguable whether the two are separable or not, however. [16/11/14 22:39] :Aeoshattr prods the skin below his wrist with the shard, between pushing it through [16/11/14 22:39] Aeoshattr:Hm, between the bones. *chuckles* [16/11/14 22:40] :Lintara jumps at the sight [16/11/14 22:41] Aeoshattr: *rubs his chin* I would like to argue if pain is necessary. [16/11/14 22:42] Aeoshattr:Either kind - despite the slight artificiality and inaccuracy of the classification. Do we truly need pain? After all, there are few that draw enjoyment from it. [16/11/14 22:43] Lintara: *sighs, settles back down* Well, pain's usually a warning that something's wrong, isn't it? [16/11/14 22:45] Aeoshattr: *nods* You could argue it's meant to keep you away from danger. [16/11/14 22:45] Aeoshattr: *pulls the shard out of his wrist, holding it in his palm* To make a comparison, one could make the argument that fear is also meant to keep us away from danger. [16/11/14 22:47] Aeoshattr:Would you agree they are similar in that way? [16/11/14 22:49] :Assira the Black nods [16/11/14 22:49] Lintara:Hurm, not exactly. Fear usually keeps from danger that might happen while pain warns that you are in danger right now. [16/11/14 22:49] :Aeoshattr nods at Lin [16/11/14 22:50] Aeoshattr:Yet that applies to the acute pain, and most of the time to physical pain only. [16/11/14 22:50] Azkhael:I would concur, on the matter of biological desirability, at least. [16/11/14 22:51] Azkhael:Though one could also claim that fear may fulfill a biologically advantageous function in social structures. [16/11/14 22:51] Azkhael:And that, itself, may have been an advantage. [16/11/14 22:52] Rophs:If I'm scared of something that'll end up eating me and avoid being eaten then that means the fear is working. [16/11/14 22:52] Rophs: *nods* And I haven't been eaten yet, so I think it's going a good job. [16/11/14 22:52] :Aeoshattr nods [16/11/14 22:53] Aeoshattr:In a biological sense, fear and pain are similar. However, there are also instances where fear does us a disservice. And similarly, so does pain. [16/11/14 22:54] Aeoshattr:To bring the analogy back around: fear of crowds. Fear of speaking out. Fear of rejection. [16/11/14 22:55] Aeoshattr:They surely aren't trying to keep you out of harm's way. If anything... their purpose is to avoid pain, not to prevent danger. *chuckles* [16/11/14 22:55] Aeoshattr:And that may restrict rather than protect sometimes. [16/11/14 22:55] Aeoshattr:Similarly... pain. What is the purpose of grieving? [16/11/14 22:56] Azkhael:Fear of rejection is more an advantage than a disadvantage, perceived within social cohesion. [16/11/14 22:56] Azkhael:And let us say that social cohesion was, itself, advantageous to our survival. [16/11/14 22:57] Aeoshattr:It may be beneficial to society - but not to the individual, not directly. *chuckles* [16/11/14 22:58] AmberRune:if they're not removed or shunned by the group, they get to have safety in numbers. What's not individual about that? [16/11/14 22:59] Aeoshattr:However, they must live with the pain, the constant fear of rejection. [16/11/14 22:59] AmberRune:fear in that case isn't pain [16/11/14 23:00] Aeoshattr:They are not the same, indeed. I used it as an analogy to bring up a point I believed to be relevant. [16/11/14 23:01] Aeoshattr:What is the purpose of emotional pain? [16/11/14 23:03] Azkhael:In nature, a social animal's survival is directly attached to that of their society. [16/11/14 23:04] Azkhael:Not exclusively so, but proportionally so. [16/11/14 23:07] Aeoshattr:Hm. *nods* Perhaps. But then again, that would be of use to the society rather than the individual. [16/11/14 23:08] Rophs:Societies with this trait would prevail over societies lacking it, perhaps explaining why it is now so widespread. [16/11/14 23:08] :Aeoshattr nods [16/11/14 23:10] Aeoshattr:That may be. At any rate, I do not wish to encroach too much on Rophs' seedwalk. [16/11/14 23:10] Aeoshattr:Furthermore, I do not wish to talk too much about what I have planned for the next sermon *chuckles* [16/11/14 23:10] Rophs:Take as much time as you need, I insist. [16/11/14 23:11] Aeoshattr: (I only planned taking one hour for this and it seems I've already covered just about everything I wanted to. For today) [16/11/14 23:12] Aeoshattr:I would like, however, hearing more about what you think - if interested, I will set a question that I would like you to answer in a few lines. [16/11/14 23:12] Rophs:Homework? [16/11/14 23:12] Aeoshattr: (i.e. if you commit to this, let me know and I'll send you the question) [16/11/14 23:12] Aeoshattr: *nods* You can call it that. [16/11/14 23:13] Ailith: *hands up* I would like to receive the question [16/11/14 23:14] Azkhael:Rophs, while it is not as easy to apply that thought to biology, what you speak of is comprehensively regarded by axiology. [16/11/14 23:14] Assira the Black: *nods* I too would like the questions. [16/11/14 23:14] Azkhael: (...) that societal forms and sets of values that lent to a greater social cohesion would often prevail over others that did not, as it favored those societies in competition. [16/11/14 23:18] Aeoshattr: (Will type question and send it out; anyone else other than Ailith and Assira?) [16/11/14 23:18] Rophs: [Forum link] [16/11/14 23:20] Azkhael:Thank you for the notification, Rophs. [16/11/14 23:20] Azkhael: (I'd be interested in your question, Aeoshattr) [16/11/14 23:21] :Ailith nods to Rophs and smiles [16/11/14 23:21] :[Spell] To my parchment scrollbook [/spoiler] TL;DR (summary) [spoiler] Pain can be categorised based on source (physical vs emotional) and based on characteristics (acute vs dull). Pain can exist in a multitude of combinations of those 4 arbitrarily defined types - but can also be different from either (as it was mentioned, trying to fit pain into "boxes" may be artificial, as there are overlaps between types). [/spoiler]

As the title says, as of today my path no longer is the same as Loreroot's. I may retain the citizenship for a short while, as the leadership of the land has allowed me to. I have posted my detailed reasons in the private LR forums, and I will try to keep them brief here. Why am I making this announcement public? To be brutally honest, dst spoke to me in-game and I told her. I did not want it to look as if I was trying to hide this (because I was not), thus I am posting this now even if I wanted to think about it for a little while longer (so my post may not be too coherent or well phrased). If anyone replies: do not try and put any blame on dst for pulling my tongue on the issue. I told her and then realised I must make the announcement public (the gathering in DQ attracted a lot of outsiders as well). That is all and I leave it at that. I will try and be as honest about things and try to phrase them nicely. Please keep in mind, I am not trying to put the blame on anyone. The decision is mine. I am merely giving my reasons. I will begin by saying that this has been the toughest decision I have had to make in MD so far, in 6 (?) years. This decision has been at the "tip of my fingers" for a long time now (months). I have tried to find the strength to keep going, I have tried to shrug off all that LR had to go through. Ever since Sunfire's departure (sort of) from the game, LR changed; it felt like people were around less and less often and I ended up hardly talking to anyone for days or weeks at a time. Incompatible schedules, RL and timezone differences took their toll. Negative events that we could hardly get over piled on top of each other; I could deal with some, but soon the pile was too big. Once more, if you reply, please do not try and blame Lorerootians for being inactive. The two phrases above this one should explain why I think so. I hate to admit it, but what Sunfire did in LR took a vastly bigger toll on me (I cannot find bigger words) than I had ever expected it to (yes, I was genuinely shocked when my anger settled down and I realised just how much this event ate at me). I cannot look at LR the same way anymore, I cannot trust LR and I cannot put my faith in it anymore. I've seen quite a few ups and downs that LR had, but I fear this one was too much for me. I truly hope that I was the weak link that broke in LR, and that it will be stronger without me. I am glad that GotR is back, but I feel that it was something half-arsed and it didn't show any strength or unity between Lorerootians. Nobody is to be blamed, IMO. I couldn't make it to the event myself due to RL circumstances. It just felt like we gave in to what was asked of us and didn't show individuality. I admit, I am still very bitter about what happened and I may bear a grudge; consider it as the drop that spilled the glass (hopefully the correct idiom). Which is why I will say no more on this issue. TL;DR - I may hold onto LR citizenship for a little while. I may seek other citizenships or not. I left mainly due to lack of interaction with fellow Lorerootians over the last few months and due to the recent actions of Sunfire in LR.

Though the moment may be inopportune, I would like to affirm Aeo's role and perhaps popularise it enough so that it is validated by the community as well. In order to do that, I must first present the role, or so I believe. The story behind this is inside Aeo's "Comments on Self" page; I will avoid posting a text-wall here, so to those interested, it's one click away when you run into him around. To put it in a nutshell, due to events in his past (call them pre-MD) and due to his life in the realm of MD so far, Aeo considers himself the incarnation of Pain, Anguish or Misery; he refers to it (and so do I) usually as merely "Pain" - experiences that have accumulated, condensed and coalesced into nothing more than Pain, which he keeps locked within. I do not believe this short description does the role justice, however for those that do not wish to read Aeo's Comms on Self, I felt the need to present it briefly. Why do this? Mostly because I have not had the chance to RP anything related to Aeo's role recently and I hope that this way, I will get something going. After all, RP is what I enjoy about MD (for the most part). Ulterior motives? As I have nothing to hide, I might as well spit it out. I personally believe it is something very innocent and reasonable: I aspire to a title and perhaps a description, though those may be far away. Why "pain"? There are many kinds of pain, and many ways in which pain can be seen. This will be discussed in a sermon. How will I do this? 1. A series of three Sermons on Pain, each held at a location to be announced before the event. I will post dates and times here, along with a short description of what each Sermon will approach. 2. A short gathering with storytelling on the themes brought up by the Sermons (consider this "homework"). 3. A quest of Pain; while I have it planned out, I must sort out various technical details, thus I will not post it until it is ready. I kindly invite anyone interested to participate. I will post the details here, as soon as possible. By all means, if anyone feels there is something that I need to clarify regarding other aspects of this other than scheduling, please point it out and I will do my best. EDIT: Realised I missed out a whole chunk of the post. Oopsy.

100% correct and I agree with you wholeheartedly. If we were to speak generally and about "what should have been done" then yes. You are right. However, there was no jump to labby link, so therefore in this specific case, it can be said that silvertongue could be ignored (such as in Iash's event) whereas in DD's case, the teleport spell was considerably more difficult to surmount. No, I'm not saying that not having a jump link up was good - there should have been one. But there wasn't, neither before the event started, nor after the interruption. That's why I agree with Ailith. Referring specifically to how things were/happened, she is right. We could all hypothesize about what should have been done, but it's already done. We can't change it. That is how I read her post and why I support it. EDIT: I do think we're deviating from the purpose of this topic, so I won't delve on this. Felt the need to explain, for some reason.

This. Ailith says it clearly and in nice words, IMO. Yes, it is now likely that DD will get a lot more negative attention than he actually deserves. As for this point, which was made in this thread by multiple people (thus I won't quote) - "why did you go to Mur?": I don't see anything wrong with him reporting this to Mur. If the option is available, why shouldn't he use it? TL;DR - I think the cooldown option is a good, decent one for both sides.

Happy happy birthday! Have fun!

On the one hand, I am glad to see people debating and indeed, valid points are raised by both sides. Nevertheless, I'll try to summarise my opinion so far in (hopefully) something that people will agree with so that we can reach a consensus about this. 1. DD running the quest for his own interest: I cannot objectively judge this, and I don't think anyone can. Besides, -everyone- will have some kind of interest when running a quest; I don't think anyone will do something like this without motivation, regardless what that is. I don't see something inherently wrong with it. 2. DD not planning to "defend" his quest better: I personally think this is icky - on the one hand I believe that some measures should be taken, but IMO when faced with Eon, Dst (and perhaps SoS as a whole) it is rather overwhelming to think about what you can do to defend yourself. I don't wish to take sides on this one, but my opinion would be: plan some sort of defense mechanism, but I don't think it's ok for you to need Mur-scaled artillery to protect your quest. So... evil guys, please don't overdo your part (as lame as that sounds, I can't find better words for it at the moment.) 3. Eon's actions: I don't see them as inherently wrong, even though perhaps it came across as such from my previous posts. I don't want it to look like I'm trying to say that what Eon (&company) is doing is wrong. Annoying? Yes. But not inherently wrong. I don't think it's in anyone's jurisdiction to dictate how a player uses an item/spell, as long as it's not abusive and/or used for harassment. Who should judge abuse/harassment? I believe the Council. Again, do not get me wrong. I don't think what Eon did was abuse or harassment. It was a bit of a nuisance (I think more for the quest participants rather than for DD, but again, I cannot judge that). 4. Council (and my main point from the beginning): I still believe the council's motivation was weak. I will try and quote fragments from the announcement to be more specific: (referring to quest disruption): "we are loathed to make any form of rules to punish people doing this". The way I read this is "we don't want to be disliked by the community for stepping up for something". I think this makes the Council look really weak, as if they're afraid of the public opinion. Sometimes, they might have to take decisions that are disliked. It's not always going to be pretty - how can we be sure the Council does the right thing and doesn't just choose the easiest path? "At this time, we merely ask you try not disrupting quests" + "A social problem can only be solved socially." So in one line they say "at this time", implying there could be more drastic decision if the problem persists, but in the end they say the problem can only be solved socially. Which one is it? I am not inclined towards either, but please make up your mind and be clear. You're the Council, your words shouldn't be interpretable, the way I see it. If you're going to act, be firm about it, if you're not going to, say that this is out of the Council's hands and that it's on the community's shoulders. I believe that sums it up. To reiterate, I opened this topic mostly to complain about the Council. Not about DD's quest, not about Eon's interference. Again, my issue here is with the way the Council seems to deal with things; it seems to be weak, and IMO in Mur's absence, the Council really should be strong or at least uphold such an image.

I can confirm DD did ask around for people that can teleport to GoE.