Shameful MD

[smartalekrj]

[quote]Closing your eyes, or sticking your fingers in your ears will not make it go away [/quote]

not being there makes it go away lol... that is, until someone pm's you telling you to go to the location only to see all the bullying going on for yourself... hmmm sounds familiar... oh yeah that type of bullying and harrassment is why i dropped RPC!!! I wanna say something like this in different context but same thing gets broughten up like every 4-6 months.

Edited October 28, 2011 by smartalekrj

[Kyphis the Bard]

[quote name='Maebius' timestamp='1319829706' post='94793']
Combat is not harassment, as outlined above.
[/quote]
[quote name='Rules and Restrictions']
Repeated harrassment without reason of other players will not be tolerated. If you have a reason for that, that reason should be discussed with a moderator and if that moderator is unable to solve the issue then put up for voting on the forum. By harrasment we understand constant verbal abuse and moking. [b]Repeated attacks or other ways are not considered punishable harrasment but can be brought up for judging if you think they should.[/b]
[/quote]
[quote name='Rules and Restrictions']
Any repeated complain from multiple unique users will get some kind of unwanted action on you, try not to offend people, or to cause a mess in general
[/quote]

As per the rules page, Attacks can be considered as harassment.
Unique complaints about different incidents, even if they are essentially the same, are generally treated as different cases. It takes a long time for them to cross the line of acceptable.
To qualify for the conditions of the second point, this is the process you need to follow:[list]
[*]Everyone with a genuine and serious complaint against the same person needs to write up their own [b]personal[/b] and [b]independent[/b] testimonies of whatever is bothering you all.
[*]Get all the testimonies about [b]the same[/b] problem together into [b]one[/b] letter.
[*]That letter needs to be sent to the Council, not Mur.
[*]Create a topic in the MD Court Forum.
[/list]

The Council is slow, but they do do their job in the end. Be patient, and follow the correct procedure if you want something of this scale to change.
It has been firmly established by Mur that the Skill Damage ability is not going away. Do not expect it to. The council will think of something else.
You can reach the Council here: [council]

If you have any questions please contact the CLC.
CLC - Kyphis

Edited October 28, 2011 by Kyphis the Bard

[Muratus del Mur]

Parts of me incline to answer differently to this...whatever this is...

Head under water:
I HAD ENOUGH OF THIS, i wonder if your own being is not a threat for your own existence. Careful how you place your words, you might end up harassing yourself. Bullying is part of life, is where you learn something from. AND YES my dears, you are all animals, we all are animals, the beauty is that we afford the luxury to parade our characters and ideas and let THOSE die in this fight for survival, otheriwise it would be full of blood around here.



Looking through a black mirror:
I gave you the tools, you never touched them, I gave you the kings and land laws authority, you never used them. I gave you incentives you ignored them, and all you see is to complain i gave you FREEDOM? How fucked is that? I will never lock away freedom of behavior and speech, even if through that some get frustrated and hurt. If you like beautiful lies and a charade of comfort rules, that are made up and in no connection with the cruel cold reality, you are free to do that on your own. Players can punish players, kings can listen to the requests of their citizens. The law system in the outer world is not using any divine intervention to make justice, its using crime against crime, plain and simple...if you didn't realize that by now you are blind. If you don't understand that MD laws are meant [u]to preserve the dynamics of this world and NOT to protect you or your safety[/u] you are naive.


With my back to the pitch black mirror:
Why do i even bother? because i care? ofc I care, more than you think. You are travelers stopping by, i exist in this realm. But mostly because I assigned a council to take decisions I would never bother to do, and that gives me the freedom to speak more freely, without implying that anything I say will remain fixed. Me...as in the old Mur that used to be the only judge around, fair or not fair, I turn my back to the mirror and listen to its whispers. Council has full authority, Rendril has full skill needed to perform any change decided by council. You no longer need my opinion.


Ps. if council is unresponsive or too slow, I will appoint judges. My view on the matter is clear as you figured out.

[Tarquinus]

This thread has zagged where it should've zigged and lost almost all sense of itself. I'd like to try to re-focus, addressing people in order of importance (to me). If I go too far overboard with English idioms or vocabulary, I will put simple definitions in [brackets] for non-native speakers of English.

[b]Mur:[/b] Reading Firs's original post, it's clear to me that he's addressing the community rather than asking you to intervene [step in]. You might not know it, but I really do what little I can to shield you from players bickering, whining, and asking for special consideration of any kind. I'm not about to tell you that you can't have your say, but I do think you should know that you don't have to let this kind of crap frustrate you. Seriously - I value your time and your sanity, and I don't like it when I see you getting frayed around the edges.

[b]Firs: [/b]Well said, and I must say I'm frustrated to see people missing your point by kilometers. What's at issue here is a negative [i]culture[/i] in MagicDuel, and it's something we must all work to change. That said, such change, if it comes, will be a slow, person-to-person process of creating a more positive culture by example. What can we do? Well, I have my own ideas, but I will say that I don't tolerate harassers or bullies in the ranks of the CoE. It ain't much, but I use the roleplaying example of knightly virtues to set the tone. The best of us - Karak comes to mind - do lead by example and have a very strong positive impact when they are around.

I appreciate your need to vent, but do try to stay on message: bullying sucks. We don't like bullies. If you bully people close to us, expect us to fight back. Harassment is not only uncalled for, it's against the rules. If you harass people, expect to be widely hated and perhaps challenged by every avenue of authority available to us, including the court of popular opinion. There's nothing good about ruining other people's fun: stop it.

[b]Victims: [/b]A couple of points to consider:

[u]Don't play the victim.[/u] I don't want any part of a culture that blames the victims of mistreatment or abuse, but I know firsthand that it is very important not to put yourself in harm's way. If you are annoyed that someone attacks you every time you idle in a public place, stop idling there. If someone stalks you around the map, log out for a while or use spells, friends, and other resources to interfere with the stalker. If you act like a victim, you will become one.

If you feel you're being harassed, take it up with the council and make use of public avenues to send brief, blunt messages ([i]e.g.[/i] "Tarq is harassing me every time I log in"). Don't depend on popular sentiment [opinion] to fix your problem. Say what your problem is, keep your complaint short and simple, and don't just wait around for judgment to come from on high - pursue it aggressively. You can always walk away from the game, but if you don't want to do that, you must be prepared to fight for yourself.

[u]Don't break the rules.[/u] Maybe you're being harassed because you're doing something wrong. If that is the case, realize how shaky your complaint is. If dst caught you cybering, you don't have much ground to complain that she stalked you, pulled the chat log, or whatever. I have cybered in MD as much as, if not more than, anyone else in the game, but it's important to note that I and others stopped when we realized we were putting MD at risk (and it became against the rules!). If you abuse alts, bugs, or exploits, realize that the authorities in MD will take a [i]very[/i] dim view of any complaints you have regarding anyone else's conduct.

[u]Don't miss opportunities.[/u] So, Eon is stalking you, you say? Attacking you at every possible moment, maybe using spells to bump you from sanctuaries? I don't want to dismiss the harassment you feel, but you should realize that you are being given a roleplayer's fondest wish: an antagonist [enemy]. All interesting stories revolve around conflict. Conflicts are only interesting when the underdog fights back. You have an antagonist, so you have a story, and it's up to you to help determine how that story will play out.

[b]Awi:[/b] As noted above, I believe you are right in general (merely complaining is unlikely to effect [cause] any sort of change) but wrong in specific (Firs's complaint is not about dst as much as it is about a culture that fosters [encourages] harassment). That said, your argument only holds true if complaining is the [u]sole[/u] avenue of redress [justice]. Things like the mood panels and the forum can be highly effective parts of campaigns to bring about change.

[b]Windy:[/b] Aren't you the leader of the Sisterhood? Don't back down so easily! If somebody tries to shut you up, don't just sit there and take it. Stick to your guns no matter how many people try to gang up on you. If you see something wrong happening, be obnoxious about it. I know you have the capacity.

[b]Everybody: [/b]xrieg, Pothos, and Granos have put this simply and well - we need to work together for MD's future, and we can't do that if we're always bickering and pointing fingers at each other. Have a grievance? Take a number. There's never going to be a time when everyone is happy. I know, I've done my share of bitching and whining, but I am capable of seeing that as a fault in myself, and as something that needs correcting. If you have a problem, try to work it out instead of automatically appealing to a higher authority to fix it. Use the resources you have. If we don't act like babies, maybe Mur will see that we deserve respect. But respect doesn't come automatically. It's earned.

Treat each other with courtesy. Don't do something to somebody else that you don't want done to you. If lots of people are complaining about things you do, go ahead and laugh evilly - but remember that most complaints contain at least a grain of truth. If you see someone is unhappy with something you've done, you might avoid all controversy by taking a minute to explain why you did what you did.

[smartalekrj]

at tarq: while the posts dont really have anything to do with mur interveneing(it's too early to know how to spell big words) I think the Topic Title is the big provoker. Also your last statement is oh so perfect!!! If you cant take heat don't dish it out!!!

[Nimrodel]

[quote name='dst' timestamp='1319823853' post='94782']
And of course you seek someone to blame it on: me, Mur, Eon, lately Greedo. I wonder who'll be next
[/quote]

Me!! Me!! I wanna be next!!! But I'm not important enough

Anyway... Forum is getting boring now a days...

[Fyrd Argentus]

[Edit - sorry, I wrote this below before realizing there was a second page of posts. Hence, it is not as original as I thought it was. still.....]

So, to whom should victims turn to for support? In this realm, the choices are:

Mur
The Council
The Kings
Fellow citizens
Alliance Leaders
Fellow alliance members
Mentors/Protectors
Fellow adepts of the same mentor
Friends
LHO system
Recognized power figures in the game
General community outrage via the forum

So the question in my mind is, why are none of these social structures sufficiently strong as to stop the victimization we're all hearing about? Yes, such needs to be stopped. Why are none of these things stopping it?

I could even understand if the community polarized into camps along philisophical lines -- chauvanists vs. feminists or whatever. But I'm constantly astounded that we continue to act as a bunch of individuals, and thus seem able to act without responsibility or reprisal -- if we lack a conscience in the first place.

Edited October 29, 2011 by Fyrd Argentus

[Muratus del Mur]

[b]THE NEEEEDDLLLEE[/b]
and if needles cant adress certain situations, i will always find it entertaining to develop slightly modified tools similar to NEEDLES that will hinder or limit any other ability that might make you unconfortable ..such as speaking. Yeah, why not have items to allow muting.

Its simple, you are crushed by someone, offended, just get close together and build a group, that person will end up running from you.

I feel like i totally wasted my time making the legislator items, you , all of you complaining here, are totally incompetent to understand how they work or what they do, or i am a total imbecile and cant figure out why you dont use them.

[Firsanthalas]

[quote]The law system in the outer world is not using any divine intervention to make justice, its using crime against crime, plain and simple...if you didn't realize that by now you are blind. If you don't understand that MD laws are meant [u]to preserve the dynamics of this world and NOT to protect you or your safety[/u] you are naive.[/quote]

Quite the contrary. When people see something they believe is wrong, even if it is not against the rules, or indeed part of the rules of society sometimes they take a stand. Often they organise a march and wave banners around and shout about it. This is an equivalent method within the constrains of MD. I have used it and you have noticed it.
Maybe instead of having a blowout you should consider that?
As for the needle? Naive is a word I would perhaps use concerning that. That is only my opinion on it though and maybe I am underestimating it.
And yes, this topic was never about any one person, be it you, dst or Eon. But it is nice to see how people completely missed that point entirely.

Ohh and by the way. It seems that apart from getting a good old argument going and at least getting some people to see what I was talking about, there is now one person actually starting to form a group on the basis of this thread. (I will be in touch with you Sephirah to enlist in a few days).
Therefore I would call this a success. Not a resounding success with bells and whistles and a ticker tape parade perhaps, but a success nonetheless.
Yup, just goes to show that whiners like me can do nothing but whine
Now if you will excuse me I am off to smoke a ridiculously big cigar.

[Kamisha]

Bizarrely I have to agree with mur on this topic. I actually dedicated three months of complete observation of the community. I am unsure of what happens past 9pm CST but allot of these problems do have ways to be addressed although I don't see many people muted people often take a side in minor fights and the bullying eventually stops.
I also have to agree that muting people is muting freedom of speech so that's another fact of the matter.

As for people who are using the rule:
[Quote]
Repeated harrassment without reason of other players will not be tolerated. If you have a reason for that, that reason should be discussed with a moderator and if that moderator is unable to solve the issue then put up for voting on the forum. By harrasment we understand constant verbal abuse and moking. Repeated attacks or other ways are not considered punishable harrasment but can be brought up for judging if you think they should.[/quote]
as a shield. Its sort of interesting how this rule is structured. First of all you have to bring it to moderator which most people don't do. Until you do it is technically not harassment by its wording. If it isn't solve its left to a vote which is fair. Finally constant attacks as least in my opinion is not abuse. You do have sanctuary's you can go to if you want to be able to just talk and not worry about attacks. There are allot of protections in game you just have to look past what you usually do. Just repeating your self over and over again as simple logic should tell you. Doing the same thing again will usually result in the same outcome it did the first time. You just have to think of life as one huge equation if that makes things easier.

However I do have to say bringing out of game things into game is a serious matter. Life in MD and out of MD should be separate.

[Kyphis the Bard]

[quote name='Muratus del Mur' timestamp='1319926329' post='94858']
... hinder or limit any other ability that might make you unconfortable ..such as speaking. Yeah, why not have items to allow muting.
[/quote]
Like the Silence Spell and mouth sewing kit?

I mean, obviously that's not what they are for, just pointing out that, y'know, you already did
And then of course there is the PM ignoreing feature you have access to, to keep them from PMing you.
Forum PM's made a great record for when the council wants evidence, and if they are harassing you in YIM or other such sights you can delete/block them there.

(although, stopping people from sexually harassing someone WOULD fall within the outline of each cases intent >.> So again, another tool they have to prevent such harassment)

Edited October 30, 2011 by Kyphis the Bard

[Muratus del Mur]

this topic is not about any specific person, i get that, but i also get that you could whine about nothing in particular but just cry plain and simple.

My answer still stands, at a more conceptual level, in case you missed that:

Legislator items like the needle are items that allow more people to fight for the same cause and obtain results they can't otherwise. In case you argue about this being unfair, i remind you that the jury system is exactly that, more people deciding the fate of one person. Here with these items consider it "voting" if more people decide Eon, or any other one, should not do that or that, they can take action. A gang, if you prefer that word. Police is also a gang in a similar way. Instead of keeping things 'official' and formal, these tools allow those affected to take action on their own. IF you would take a look on what they do, you would see that it is the number of involved people that can change something about the effect of legislator items. That means also "voting"...

but what do i talk here, you don;t even know what these items do, you just enjoy crying..its probably trendy in LR now days.

[Firsanthalas]

Yes Mur, whining is indeed trendy in Loreroot. As equally trendy as it is for you and others to whine about whiny Loreroot it seems.
If I were dst what would I say? Ahh yes, you expect us to whine so we whine and when we whine you get annoyed that we whine and whine all the more about our whining.

[Nimrodel]

[quote name='Muratus del Mur' timestamp='1319949627' post='94872']
but what do i talk here, you don;t even know what these items do, you just enjoy crying..its probably trendy in LR now days.
[/quote]

NOWADAYS? WHOA!! I thought lorerootians have been whiners since the time the first alliance of Loreroot was Built. Or thats what almost every tom-ed, Dick-y, and Harry - ed vet has ever told me. Enlightning Mur... Thank you for expressing the share of prejudice you've been entitled to... At least it's public now.

[Muratus del Mur]

In my eyes, all lands have their good and bad parts. Each land has its own ways and whining is not 'embeded' into loreroot. But sometimes i need to vent or i will explode

[ignnus]

So we should all be down to bone self-righteous people like you and that's the only thing matters in this world.Why do you need to spam this forum with your CRAP if you are so content with your ways.No wonder you are king of the tree huggers.

[Nimrodel]

Dude... Control your tongue... Especially when you are a nothing...

[Chewett]

[quote name='Nimrodel' timestamp='1320070395' post='95015']
Dude... Control your tongue... [b]Especially when you are a nothing...[/b]
[/quote]

This sums up my sadness of MD.