The value of Life in MD

[Maebius]

Since it was brought up elsewhere, I figured I'd start the topic here for general discussion or ranting.

How much is a life worth in MagicDuel?
Grido has suggested 20 gold coins to use his revival tool.

As an alternate discussion, what of those "god accounts" with magic to use if needed?

While I believe the player of Spartiatis may return in a different form, is there a line to be crossed between characters not being revived until they learn a lesson or show effort, and the player quitting the game in frustration? That's a bit more of a meta-question, but an important one I think, for the general long-range health of the player community. How strict are the "filters" in MD reality?

I'll add my full thoughts on the matter shortly, but essentially, I agree with a few different viewpoints. Each case is it's own.

[Magistra]

I thought it was common knowledge that the value of a life can not be expressed in money. Therefore I strongly reject asking for it, as I stated before. Twenty gold coins is more something the owner of a revival tool wants to have out of greed. I have to add that the whole idea of murder doesn't appeal to me.

I can imagine a player (Spartiatis) leaves the game in frustration. If you can come back in a different form, do you have to start from scratch? That seems highly unfair to me.

Edited June 21, 2012 by Magistra

[Pipstickz]

This about killing and reviving has gone on long enough. If we as a community are not mature enough to handle this aspect of the game, then please just trade all of these items in for something else. I mean really, do we even know who killed Spartiatis or why? Then we've got Seig killing Chewett because he thinks it'll help somehow, or maybe he's just doing it out of spite and then pretending he had a better reason. I've always claimed patience is important when playing MD, but what good did patience do for Spartiatis? So good job us, we're driving people from our own game.

[Maebius]

Well, my full thoughts on the matter are a bit complicated.

While I see the overall importance of Patience and the need for personal accountability towards Action for our characters, there is a line somewhere between the "game" and the Game of MagicDuel. Death is an interesting experience, if handled properly. The limitations can be either torturous for someone dedicated to creature combats, or wonderful for those into the RP and symbolic side of things. Death, overall, is a good thing to have, as ther is always hope for it's reversal. Nothing ever dies in MD has been said before, in relation to accounts leaving, and such.

In this regard, charging for a revival is [u]also[/u] a good thing. We are free to set our own selves up as anything we want here. Greedy, evil, good, generous. It all can exist in the shared wonderful Realm we inhabit here. There is always potential challenges for our characters, that if soemthnig doesnt' work, try something else. If it's important to you, and you put forth an effort, there's a nice chance Things Happen.

However, the important part of this is the hope and potential for the future. Failure in MD can teach us about our own responses to similar situations in Life. But those lessons need to be constructive, rather than rejections.

I really really hate to use Spartiatis as a martyr, but his situation is a perfect example in my mind where the meta-line of "MD spirit" can potentially get crossed. The player was effected deeply, and by my reading had posted "I'm done".
Some could say the character did not put forth enough effort towards his Goal (revival), and those are valid thoughts, in most cases. Yet not everyone here Roleplays, or is a socialite.
Some could say that it's just another case of the person not "getting" the realm's identity, and not quite fitting in. I can't accept that opinion though, because there is no "not fitting in" here. There 's a place for all types of characters, silent grinders, or pure Roleplayed Beings.
I'm sure there are peopel who come to MD as curious newbies, and leave after a while, finding the game not to their liking. That's fine.

But when someone enjoys the game, has integrated themselves into the community, then loses Hope that they will ever get to play again.. that's bad.
That reflects directly on MagicDuel itself, counter to the Advertiser's efforts. Pushing a [u]player[/u] away, is generally a bad thing, once it becomes clear that the Character's irritation of "being dead" has crossed over to player frustration at being excluded entirely from what keeps him/her here to begin with.

Would the spirit of MD be harmed deeply if in such cases the admins or Council steps in to "cheat" a bit and revive someone in this sort of situation?

Ideally, I'd hope that the player would at least be reminded "[i]sorry its taking so long, try something else[/i]." or "[i]Rest assured that in ## time, you could be revived again, but not at the moment[/i]". A little glimmer of Potential is a Big Deal at times.

So in summary, the value of a Revival in MD is quite variable, depending on the situation.
The value of a [u]Life[/u] in MD is priceless though. If we kill a spirit, that is not worth the cost at all.

[Miq]

Honestly i still don't know what are the effects that death has.

If the effect is deletion of the account or similar then the price is everything you have and can borrow in MD
If the effect is that you can't move,train then 0 or what ever you value those abilities

Miq

[Mya Celestia]

[color=#008080][font=lucida sans unicode,lucida grande,sans-serif]Part of what has bothered me about death in MD is the response of others. "You're dead. Figure out how to revive yourself." Now I may be taking a bit of a reality view of it, but isn't that a bit off to tell a dead person to revive themselves? If someone is dead in reality, they can't restore their own lives. I know MD isn't reality, but there should be a greater effort made by the people around instead of snapping at the dead player to fix their own problem. The dead person is limited on what they can do.[/font][/color]

[color=#008080][font=lucida sans unicode,lucida grande,sans-serif]Another part that has bothered me is the lack of "justice" for the one that was killed. There is no justice for them unless they managed to get a screenshot. When I was killed, I had no clue what happened until I ended up in GoC. No hope for a screenshot then. All the player has to do is sit silent and they've gotten away with it. Yes, there are ways for retrieving chat logs if you're know someone with the spell for it. [/font][/color]

[color=#008080][font=lucida sans unicode,lucida grande,sans-serif]Then there's the cost. I don't have 300 silver or 20 gold to revive myself nor do I have the cash in reality to come up with it. Instantly my game would be over due to real world funding issues. At least when the torch was running a body had a glimmer of hope as Maebius mentioned.[/font][/color]

[color=#008080][font=lucida sans unicode,lucida grande,sans-serif]Perhaps what the realm as a whole needs to do is figure out a set of requirements, rituals, etc that [i]may[/i] work to revive a body. I'm not saying to do the work for the dead, but at least offer a [b]possibility[/b] of restoration. Hope goes a long way when it comes to motivation.[/font][/color]

[Grido]

Going back to my original question, and reason this topic started;

Define a reasonable price for revival.

[Magistra]

I think the people here made it clear there isn't any.

[apophys]

In my opinion, revival should not require any silver/gold cost to the dead player. Because he/she didn't choose to die, and could not protect against it.


The cost of revival should be solely a cost of time and effort, and should be guaranteed to work if that time and effort is expended. A community effort to revive someone should be available as a shortcut, but there should be some way to guarantee a revive without anyone's help, for example, a dead person can automatically revive and respawn at the paper cabin after a month, with all creatures drained of vitality. Or it could be done via illusions.

Of course, a person may choose to get a quick fix and buy the use of a revival item, but this should not be a strict requirement to revive.

Edited June 21, 2012 by apophys

[BFH]

[quote name='Maebius' timestamp='1340292244' post='115641']
But when someone enjoys the game, has integrated themselves into the community, then loses Hope that they will ever get to play again.. that's bad.
That reflects directly on MagicDuel itself, counter to the Advertiser's efforts. Pushing a [u]player[/u] away, is generally a bad thing, once it becomes clear that the Character's irritation of "being dead" has crossed over to player frustration at being excluded entirely from what keeps him/her here to begin with.

Would the spirit of MD be harmed deeply if in such cases the admins or Council steps in to "cheat" a bit and revive someone in this sort of situation?
[/quote]

The advertising part is true. it's my eternal fight with Council, but on the other hand they are tied on some aspects. They will implement something... Hopefully.

[Guillak]

[quote name='Grido' timestamp='1340300190' post='115656']
Going back to my original question, and reason this topic started;

Define a reasonable price for revival.
[/quote]

Here's another approach: your compensation for using your tool, for which you worked hard, freely on others, is the ability to revive anyone, gratefulness of players, and why not ability to befriend anyone, including enemies (or you could make them grovel before you ), etc. Isn't that worth more than 20 bloody coins, or any "price"? The most valuable things in MD are not material … I think.

[Grido]

What value of life and death does that give to the player in question? If they know that if they get killed then they just need to suck up to me (which btw, I hate people doing).

[Kaya]

I don't like the idea of an automatic revival or a resurrection without help of others. Why? Because people would find little reason to help someone who would get back after a month anyway. Many great initiatives came from dead, like Chewett's [url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/10210-ceremonial-heat-letting-for-our-dead/"]heat letting for the king[/url]; Maebius, Katt and Guillak's [url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/11666-seigheart/page__hl__heat"]heat gathering for Seigheart[/url] (and later on themselves) together with Passant's [url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/11715-we-want-them-back-declare-war-to-death/page__hl__dead"]War on Death[/url] and even Dst's [url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/11115-results-reporter-quest-who-killed-eon/page__hl__%2Breporter+%2Bquest"]ritual to make Bob bloom[/url] for Eon. Most of these efforts wouldn't be there if the dead would be resurrected after a month anyway.

It seems like everyone agrees that paying 20 Gold to revive someone is outrageous, but why has no one tried to resurrect them using a different way? Why has there been no mas heat gathering? Why has no one tried to reconstruct the ritual Dst used to get Eon back? Have the Lorerootians forgotten their laws now they no longer have a king? "To aid fellow citizens" and "To defend other Lorerootians by word and deed."

Why haven't the bringers of light brought their light to the GoE, brought the life bringing light? Especially now one of Marind Bell's own citizens has died as well.

Same goes for the rest of MD our citizens are dying and we just sit by watching idelly, telling a few to fix what we don't feel worth the trouble to work for.

Heat is the blood of all activity in MD, garthering enough heat therefore will bring back those that died, so why not stop wasting our time complaining about Grido and start bringing back the dead?

[Jubaris]

[quote name='samon' timestamp='1340394019' post='115825']
Why haven't the bringers of light brought their light to the GoE, brought the life bringing light? Especially now one of Marind Bell's own citizens has died as well.
[/quote]

Maybe because they were involved in every single previous resurrection and people have RL duties at the moment? (exams and all sorts of stuff)
If anyone can be spared from lack of activity accusations, it would be the folk of Marind Bell as a group. (represented by, among others, bringers of light)

[Kaya]

[quote name='Rhaegar Targaryen' timestamp='1340394642' post='115826']
Maybe because they were involved in every single previous resurrection and people have RL duties at the moment? (exams and all sorts of stuff)
If anyone can be spared from lack of activity accusations, it would be the folk of Marind Bell as a group. (represented by, among others, bringers of light)
[/quote]
I really don't want to accuse anyone, we're all to blame nothing happened yet and Spartiatis was the first to die. Also if we all clasp our hands together I'm sure we'll be able to bring them back in no time.

[Maebius]

[quote name='samon' timestamp='1340396605' post='115829']
I really don't want to accuse anyone, we're all to blame nothing happened yet and Spartiatis was the first to die. Also if we all clasp our hands together I'm sure we'll be able to bring them back in no time.
[/quote]

You are right. We should have tried a few things, beyond just complaining about 20 gold coins being unfair....
(among other minor ponderings I'd seen in-game chatter over the past month.....)

[url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/12322-a-new-community-project-of-sorts/"]http://magicduel.inv...oject-of-sorts/[/url]

[url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/12327-im-the-ghost-of-sparta-goe-now-is-haunted-by-a-ghost-becareful/"]http://magicduel.inv...host-becareful/[/url]

[url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/12461-help-fyrd-call-back-all-the-spirits/"]http://magicduel.inv...ll-the-spirits/[/url]

[url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/12483-recipe-for-fyrds-bodhran-to-wake-the-dead/"]http://magicduel.inv...-wake-the-dead/[/url]

[url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/12511-revival-fruit/"]http://magicduel.inv...-revival-fruit/[/url]

[url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/12441-a-funeral/"]http://magicduel.inv...2441-a-funeral/[/url]

I think at this point, what happened is Chewett had publically said "don't bother, I'm busy right now too IRL", more than once in game, and Spartiatis seems to have left the realm, or at least not made any noise lately after:

[quote name='Espartano' timestamp='1339334964' post='114264']
Or donate my coins to anyone who is interested in using them in a revive item (not to cast in me as without my crits will not play anymore) ...
So this is a goodbye.
[/quote]

edit: couldn't tell if you were being semi sarcastic, Samon. I posted these links in a light-hearted frame of mind, not to also accuse anyone, but as a reminder of what didn't work this time it seems.

Edited June 23, 2012 by Maebius

[Magistra]

Well, then let's not accuse each other or nag about the 20 gold coins, but do something! I don't like all those people dying (and leaving).

[SageWoman]

[quote name='samon' timestamp='1340394019' post='115825']
I don't like the idea of an automatic revival or a resurrection without help of others. Why? Because people would find little reason to help someone who would get back after a month anyway. Many great initiatives came from dead, like Chewett's [url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/10210-ceremonial-heat-letting-for-our-dead/"]heat letting for the king[/url]; Maebius, Katt and Guillak's [url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/11666-seigheart/page__hl__heat"]heat gathering for Seigheart[/url] (and later on themselves) together with Passant's [url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/11715-we-want-them-back-declare-war-to-death/page__hl__dead"]War on Death[/url] and even Dst's [url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/11115-results-reporter-quest-who-killed-eon/page__hl__%2Breporter+%2Bquest"]ritual to make Bob bloom[/url] for Eon. Most of these efforts wouldn't be there if the dead would be resurrected after a month anyway.

It seems like everyone agrees that paying 20 Gold to revive someone is outrageous, but why has no one tried to resurrect them using a different way? Why has there been no mas heat gathering? Why has no one tried to reconstruct the ritual Dst used to get Eon back? Have the Lorerootians forgotten their laws now they no longer have a king? "To aid fellow citizens" and "To defend other Lorerootians by word and deed."

Why haven't the bringers of light brought their light to the GoE, brought the life bringing light? Especially now one of Marind Bell's own citizens has died as well.

Same goes for the rest of MD our citizens are dying and we just sit by watching idelly, telling a few to fix what we don't feel worth the trouble to work for.

Heat is the blood of all activity in MD, garthering enough heat therefore will bring back those that died, so why not stop wasting our time complaining about Grido and start bringing back the dead?
[/quote]
[quote name='samon' timestamp='1340394019' post='115825']
I don't like the idea of an automatic revival or a resurrection without help of others. Why? Because people would find little reason to help someone who would get back after a month anyway. Many great initiatives came from dead, like Chewett's [url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/10210-ceremonial-heat-letting-for-our-dead/"]heat letting for the king[/url]; Maebius, Katt and Guillak's [url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/11666-seigheart/page__hl__heat"]heat gathering for Seigheart[/url] (and later on themselves) together with Passant's [url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/11715-we-want-them-back-declare-war-to-death/page__hl__dead"]War on Death[/url] and even Dst's [url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/11115-results-reporter-quest-who-killed-eon/page__hl__%2Breporter+%2Bquest"]ritual to make Bob bloom[/url] for Eon. Most of these efforts wouldn't be there if the dead would be resurrected after a month anyway.

It seems like everyone agrees that paying 20 Gold to revive someone is outrageous, but why has no one tried to resurrect them using a different way? Why has there been no mas heat gathering? Why has no one tried to reconstruct the ritual Dst used to get Eon back? Have the Lorerootians forgotten their laws now they no longer have a king? "To aid fellow citizens" and "To defend other Lorerootians by word and deed."

Why haven't the bringers of light brought their light to the GoE, brought the life bringing light? Especially now one of Marind Bell's own citizens has died as well.

Same goes for the rest of MD our citizens are dying and we just sit by watching idelly, telling a few to fix what we don't feel worth the trouble to work for.

Heat is the blood of all activity in MD, garthering enough heat therefore will bring back those that died, so why not stop wasting our time complaining about Grido and start bringing back the dead?
[/quote]
Heat gathering you say? Well, currently, heat is being gathered to "ressurect" the Children of the Eclipse with the Defense Quarters in Loreroot. If that becomes successful, and it sways the heart of Mur, and the Council, then too, it can be done to ressurrect the Dead. Go to Loreroot and open the chest therein. Open an orb and then click on the "pray" button. Let us see how successful can be. Heat only works if the people are WILLING to give it up.

Edited June 23, 2012 by SageWoman

[Rannel]

It would seem from both heat votings that the "life" of an alliance has more value then the life of a player or two. But heat voting is just a plea to higher powers, one they can ignore like they did with Spartan. So if you don't have friends with revive items or your not popular enough, you got only one "life". I guess this raises the market value of life considerably. Same goes for the items that can change your "life state".

So remember to be nice to other people, especially those with an assassins blade...

[(Zl-eye-f)-nea]

The list of forum threads is exactly that.[list]
[*]From what I know the heat vote wasnt conclusive one way or the other among other things.
[*]A funeral is a funeral, its to do with leaving the dead to be dead, not reviving them.
[*]The MB thread is in a hidden forum so most people dont know what that is.
[*]The revive fruit stuff is all on forum other than Fyrd... and how many of you guys are actually supporting Fyrd? Cuz when I go to the garden there is usually nobody there and I didnt see anyone helping him with his drumming or his walk or....well anything for that matter.
[/list]

Get off the forum and get into the game and do something. Do it because its fun to do stuff, do it because you get to be creative, you might actually enjoy it and with the 'hope' as Mya puts it, that it might actually work, really try and dont give up. Fyrd is desperately trying to lead you all and you'd rather sit in game drinking tea and sit here typing out how aggravated you are - which is fun in itself I suppose but if you really mean what you are saying here then go physically support Fyrd.

Z

[Maebius]

My main argument in the recent cases is that when one character gives up and leaves, and the other specifically says "ahh, just wait a bit, I'm busy".... the community will act as they would for other plans, because they are fun. If that's getting Tea, then so be it. I think that's why a lot more discussion on the meta-topic of handling these latest deaths moved to the theoretical forum-realm now.

Here's where I must fall back on the main reason I started this. What value does life have here?
In this case, there was a funeral in-game, since the player seems to have left, or not returned messages, after posting "I'm done".
The Heat vote never showed much beyond an attempt to draw the attention of those who Could help.
Coin collection did take place in-game, but also on the forums as a more global reminder of it.

To my knowledge, [u]every[/u] post I linked has had echoes if them in scene chatter. Every single one.
Some were outside of my normal activity time, I'm sure soem were outside of others. The forum is nice for a more "global" archive of thoughts.

But it still doesn't answer the main question.

What price should be put on a life in MD?
For grido, it is 20 Gold. I think it's fair, particularly since I've seen other publically offer to pay the price with pooled coins.
For some, it seems we require Great Acts of Event and interaction. That's also fair if folks prefer that.

The main question is, is that fair?
The revival fruit idea came about as a reaction to "no one did anything" the way I see it and is still playing out a bit,( with less public support as you also mentioned.)

But that's not the main reason I asked the question in this topic.
Is all this Effort and Creativity worth it? [b]Are others accountable for their lives, or are We in charge of them?[/b] I don't mean that against your comments Z. That actually supports them in my mind.
What is the value of a Life in MD?

There's two answers.
One is the price of Revival of a dead character" that can be debated ad infinitum here on a case by case basis.
The second is the price it costs MD when death drives someone away from hopelessness.

Edited June 23, 2012 by Maebius

[Magistra]

All this talk about what the prize should be of revival and what is the value of a life in MD will not help the dead. They should be revived as soon as possible. So maybe it is time for concrete plans. (maybe a new topic too: How to revive the dead?) Although I love to be philosophical, I now feel the urge to do something. I hope the community feels the same.

[Grido]

considering there's idk how many various threads already about the dead and various ways to revive them, how about you all decide on a single idea, and all back that? If you have 20 ideas and support is spread it'll be weaker than if you all back the same idea.

[Kaya]

For now one thing we can do is at least prevent the heat from the hidden orb to die out. Other than that I think it would be good to hold an in game meeting about this soon to decide what we think is the best solution.

An other thing we might start thinking about is what we think of killers. Is it right that someone who took someone else's life away can just walk away freely without having to worry about anything?

[J-D]

Is it right for a killer to walk away freely? Of course not. But of course, there is the matter of: what can we do to punish the killer? The system is obviously quite unbalanced. The people with the killing and reviving items are the most powerful people around. With a few exceptions, these people tend to be greedy. If a person wants to kill another person, they merely follow them around and wait for them to stay still long enough for the item to be used. There's no way to stop them, except making sure never to go idle or to stay in the same scene as the person who's trying to kill you for more than a few seconds. Which is, of course, extremely difficult to do. The only person with a revival item that is willing to use it charges an outrageous fee. There shouldn't be any fee, but those of us who share that view aren't the ones with the revival items. The necessary balance simply does not exist, because of this, which is why the revival fruit is a good idea. We need a way to make it possible for [i]anybody[/i] who is killed to get revived.