Discuss the voting arguments HERE!

[Seigheart]

[color=#0000ff]sp[/color]l[color=#0000cd]it from [/color][url="http://magicduel.invisionzone.com/topic/13289-vote-for-the-new-head-of-treasure-keepers/"][color=#0000cd]the voting thread[/color][/url]
[color=#0000cd]~burn[/color][color=#0000ff]s[/color]

[quote name='Ackshan Bemunah' timestamp='1354080172' post='126696']
ZenTao.

I say this mainly because the people I trust most, who have been around longer than me and think more clearly, say so. Their reasons make a lot of sense to me, especially the fact that ZenTao is organized and [b]responsive[/b] which are both really hard things to be when material is at stake.

The other reason is simply because Zen is already invested in TK and clearly wants things to work well. When someone is present and moving toward doing a job to all specifications, there's no reason to push them away and put someone else in stead.
[/quote]

Ackshan, that, above all else, makes the most sense of everything everyone has said thus far.

Edited November 28, 2012 by Burns
split note

[DARK DEMON]

[quote name='Rhaegar Targaryen' timestamp='1354109150' post='126723']
I know Lightsage is capable, no matter my negative opinion on his general behavior and system of values, but [b]I will vote for ZenTao.[/b]

My reason? ZenTao is nice as far as I know her, bunch of people mentioned interesting things, but my main reason is that I am voting against Lightsage.
Why against Lightsage? From my experience with him and his acts, he is not trustworthy, not loyal (other than to himself), and he is too ambitious. All that could pass on its own, but there's another huge reason - monopoly of power. Who are his best friends? One of them is Dst.
So if you choose Lightsage, you have a person that controls how the major rewards are distributed, and you have a person that has ran most of the log-checks on who cheated the system as one of his best friends. (not that I want to question Dst's professionalism, but I would still prefer not to put her into that conflict of interests. I don't think Dst will try to manipulate this, as I don't think she wants much in game stuff, but I am afraid she will not do her best to stop Lightsage)

Even that could pass for me (barely) if Mur were active and all the TKs had to do was to watch carefully whom he is rewarding, but in the modern days of MD, we've seen that TKs have a large independent part, full of self-initiated ideas.

For administrative functions to succeed you need to have neutral people who don't have 'best' friends, and a load of people who are monitoring those on administrative functions which by all means shouldn't be good friends with those they are observing. Yes, that is pretty hard under these conditions where you only have some 100 active people.

For the sake of balance of MD powers, pick someone other than Lightsage, otherwise, whenever you would like something to get done you would have to go to a certain faction of players. Players should have very limited and balanced grasp on admin seats.



Remember what Mur said about people not liking Seigheart? That it is a positive attribute for his TK reign, because he is not supposed to be liked.

I'm sorry for sounding offensive towards mentioned people, this was not meant as a flame, I just wanted to honestly portray my opinion on a subject I weigh important for MD.
[/quote]

The BEST analysis I've seen so far in this thread, though some others are great too. Way to go, Rhaegar!

[Nimrodel]

[quote name='DARK DEMON' timestamp='1354110811' post='126725']


The BEST analysis I've seen so far in this thread, though some others are great too. Way to go, Rhaegar!
[/quote]

What do you know bout Lightsage? Please PM me. I dont want to spam anymore.

@Rhaegar- your 'analysis' is biased.
Its like, 'Since Lightsage stole a candy when he was in 2nd grade, i don't want to elect him as a treasury member in college. Also, because he's friends with someone I don't like -dst. And because of that i choose to ignore the votes and opinions of other people who are his friends as well. Like burns and chewett.'

Yes. Great analysis. I totaly agree.

Had to say that. Wont spam anymore. Sori mods.

Edited November 28, 2012 by Nimrodel

[Seigheart]

Nim, that is fine.

I "stole" artworks when I first started MD.

No one deserves to be denied helping MD because they made a mistake a long time ago.

But I believe Rhaegar is correct in his comment.

[Nimrodel]

Do you seriously think lighty is dst's puppet? Or that he's stupid and incapable of thinking ratiotionally and would get influenced by other people so easily? He's not who he is today just coz he's played puppet to xyz.

[Fang Archbane]

[quote name='ignnus' timestamp='1354117921' post='126739']
Zen seems great and all BUT I noticed Seig's previous candidate Fang did not work very well.So,no reason to think Fang's candidate will perform better compared to a more experienced player.Person I vote would be [b]lightsage.[/b]
[/quote]

Sorry to correct you Iggy, but ZenTao was Seighearts wanted candidate. He took what he could when he picked me, because ZenTao was not around due to real life issues i will not bring up, and i was around. Please think before you speak.

[ignnus]

[quote]Please think before you speak[/quote]
I don't have to know TK's inner workings in order make my opinion.I believe you if you say so yet not only it's not my problem why he chose you but also he could call a vote like this if there was not somebody he would really choose.I recommend you start to respect people's opinion.

[Fang Archbane]

i do respect the peoples opinions. always have, always will. Seig picked me as the runner up, because he thought he saw potential. Turns out im not too good under pressure so, i chose to step down to a regular Treasure Keeper.

I respect your opinion, what i dont respect, is that your opinion is based off assumptions and half truths.

[Liberty4life]

i agree with nim, thats just wrong to say that voting for lightsage would allow power monopoly, and then you pick out dsts name directly, and say nothin of chew, burns, bfh, grido, well grido didnt yet cast his vote but, they are all key "admin" figures of game, and they all get along among each other, as much as i know lightsage doesnt get along more with dst than with any other of above mentioned, and why you think he would or actually why you think lightsage always did say yes to dst? he told her no more than once fyi

[ignnus]

[quote]i do respect the peoples opinions. always have, always will. Seig picked me as the runner up, because he thought he saw potential. Turns out im not too good under pressure so, i chose to step down to a regular Treasure Keeper.

I respect your opinion, what i dont respect, is that your opinion is based off assumptions and half truths.[/quote]
I didn't say you never respect people opinions or you are bad person.In this case though it's not my responsibility to know why you resigned just that you resigned and there was problems obviously which effects my vote negatively on your band of merry prankster's next choice of person.Upon further discussion one can't help but get disgusted from being accused of not knowing full truths and making baseless assumptions where other party did not stated these truths clearly beforehand nor it's like everyone should know about everything.I try and follow the news and try and make an honest opinion as I tried to make it clear before there is a problem with your judgement criteria to what is true or false.Perhaps you are used people listening when you shout a lil.too bad this is not sparta or anything but real life.

[Fang Archbane]

I dont shout yo. not in anger or annoyance at least. when i speak, others listen. i dont so much as need to raise my voice.

And thats fine. say what you will. surprised as others may be, arguing over mundane and unimportant things with others is not one of my favorite past times, so on that note, im out~

a couple of things to note.

1) i respect and love you Iggy. it was just your words that i felt needed a tad of clarification
2) i still expect you to love me. or so help me i WILL find a pointy stick, so i can poke you and make your life difficult.
2) im a merry prankster!??! shweet <3

[Seigheart]

Fang, just shut up, and stop pressing people's buttons. If anything, you are ruining Zen's chance of leading the TKs by opening your mouth.

[Ackshan Bemunah]

[quote name='Seigheart' timestamp='1354134908' post='126765']
Fang, just shut up, and stop pressing people's buttons. If anything, you are ruining Zen's chance of leading the TKs by opening your mouth.
[/quote]

I think Council knows how to ignore someone who's confused, considering how MD works. I think they know that they shouldn't try to reward/punish individuals via the degree to which they listen.

Edited November 28, 2012 by Ackshan Bemunah

[Miq]

[quote name='Seigheart' timestamp='1354134908' post='126765']
Fang, just shut up, and stop pressing people's buttons. If anything, you are ruining Zen's chance of leading the TKs by opening your mouth.
[/quote]

Lol, Seig you are still a diplomat i see.

[ignnus]

[quote]And thats fine. say what you will. surprised as others may be, arguing over mundane and unimportant things with others is not one of my favorite past times, so on that note, im out~[/quote]
Voice of the reason is on the job again.Didn't mean to shout but I can't stop once I go at it.Me not only impatient also not have time for this kind of discussion.
[quote]1) i respect and love you Iggy. it was just your words that i felt needed a tad of clarification
2) i still expect you to love me. or so help me i WILL find a pointy stick, so i can poke you and make your life difficult.
2) im a merry prankster!??! shweet <3[/quote]
I have a minor case of being creeped out by the sudden change.Otherwise of course I adore anyone and everyone until I can't transfer the radiance and share the kindness anymore.Ignus is never gonna hurt you nor he will make you cry: :-P
I won't change my vote but I recommend people not to disregard Zen as a candidate due to this discussion.

[No one]

Edit: sorry for being this long.

[quote name='Pipstickz' timestamp='1354097712' post='126710']
A month old player could run the TKs with a little guidance and would probably do a better job of it than anybody has in the past.
...
I vote Zentao because the reasons for voting Lightsage don't make sense to me unless I ignore my brain, while the possibility of a leader who won't say "I'm not changing my mind unless Mur/Council tells me to", and one who already knows how TKs works, is too good to pass up.
[/quote]
You are really confusing me with your reason for chosing Zentao but someone can read this kind of complicated stuff. Sorry.

Fist of all, due to all these "noobs" that "know better" there was quite a flood of WP and rare creatures. And this is another reason I choose not to choose a noob (A month old player).

Also: we don't need a puppet of the old leaders, we need someone who don't need "a little guidance" but obey the limits & rules.

[quote name='Rhaegar Targaryen' timestamp='1354109150' post='126723']
(1) My reason?
Why against Lightsage? From my experience ... his best friends ... is Dst.

(2) ... Dst's professionalism ... don't thing Dst will try to manipulate ... she will not do her best to stop Lightsage

(3) Even that could pass for me (barely) if Mur were active and all the TKs had to do was to watch carefully whom he is rewarding, but in the modern days of MD, we've seen that TKs have a large independent part, full of self-initiated ideas.

(4) For the sake of balance of MD powers, ... Players should have very limited and balanced grasp on admin seats.
...
(5) Remember what Mur said about people not liking Seigheart? That it is a positive attribute for his TK reign, because he is not supposed to be liked.

I'm sorry ..., I just wanted to honestly portray my opinion ....
[/quote]
I am sorry Rhaegar, was that what you meant to say ? Please let me respond to that:
1. Nice reason: don't vote Lightsage he knows (is best friend with) Dst. Anything else ?
2. Dst didn't do her best to stop Seighart of Fang ? Didn't they still did it ? how many abuses have they done ? do you know all of them ?
3. Because Mur is no longer active, who is checking TK's activity ? They don't obey Council as Seighart so blatantly and honestly said. And the idea
4. Yes, please vote council out of game.
5. From what I understood at that time Mur had a choice: jail/ban Seighart (as of Fenrir alt) or give a similar punishment. Seigh's TK position nearly granted him the jail he barely avoided in the first place but definatly gave him the bad reputation (due to his own character)

[quote name='Seigheart' timestamp='1354118306' post='126740']
No one deserves to be denied helping MD because they made a mistake a long time ago.

But I believe Rhaegar is correct in his comment.
[/quote]

Please stop using my alias on topic not related to me. You don't know me.
Well, Seigheart, TK is where it is because of you and your attitude about rules. Fang just fell into your steps.
I think that if Zentao whould have not have been a former TK she would have had better odds.
Also, Rhaegar was not putting you in a good light you know. But I guess that if he is ranting about Dst he must be right, no ?

Edited November 28, 2012 by No one

[Peace]

[font=comic sans ms,cursive]I won't ever bother reading what you are all saying here.[/font]

[font=comic sans ms,cursive]You people seriously go against each other because of what one voted and why?[/font]

[font=comic sans ms,cursive]Learn to respect whatever opinion each other have, for each of you are speaking your mind based on your own personal experiences and whatever you may have seen. And most of you are veterans, you have been around much to have reached to a decision and nobody, NOBODY will ever change that opinion that your own selves.[/font]

[font=comic sans ms,cursive]We are not the same, we will never be, so we can not always agree on everything. But do respect that for one another. Don't [i]force[/i] your opinion over another one's views.[/font]

[font=comic sans ms,cursive]...because in the end this is what stops us from being an actual community. And this is what ruins the whole game, not just for us, but for the new players as well.[/font]

[ZenTao]

I would like to explain a few things here, seeing as people don't know the situation about the role I play in the TK while under both Seigheart and while under Fang and why I was not around during the summer when Seigheart resigned.

First off," My Real Life Issues" composed of me taking care of my Mom in her last few months of life, I don't know how many of you have had the heartbreaking experience of taking care of and watching your parent waste away because of Cancer but I will hope with all my heart and soul you don't have to go through that sort of pain. It's quite possible that some are just so committed to MD that even if someone you love needs you MD would still come first- well I am NOT one of those people, my family comes first.

While under Seighearts Rule, I rewarded quests and sponsored quests I logged everything I did- That's what I did, forgive me if it was such a terrible thing.

Under Fangs rule I rewarded quests, sponsored quests and logged everything I did- again, what does the opinions on past TK leaders have to do with me?

I got out your rewards as fast as I could I did the role I was supposed to do and because I worked under people whom some of you did not like- all of a sudden it's me who is to blame when all I did was a service to the community. I question if this is something anyone would want to do and be treated and thought of in such a way. I don't appreciate being called a Puppet- and it's pretty obvious to me that half of you haven't a clue as to what the TK does or what I do.

[Pipstickz]

[quote name='No one' timestamp='1354142858' post='126779']
You are really confusing me with your reason for chosing Zentao but someone can read this kind of complicated stuff. Sorry.

Fist of all, due to all these "noobs" that "know better" there was quite a flood of WP and rare creatures. And this is another reason I choose not to choose a noob (A month old player).

Also: we don't need a puppet of the old leaders, we need someone who don't need "a little guidance" but obey the limits & rules.
[/quote]
The TKs are supposed to sponsor quests higher than what has already been sponsored, and based on what is in stock. If there are lots of Tainted Angiens in TK stock, lots of Tainted Angiens will be sponsored. If there are lots of morphs in stock, morphs will be sponsored. If there are lots of pimps in stock, pimps will be sponsored, it's just a matter of finding a quest that needs pimps to be sponsored, or auctioning them off. This is how I understand it to work, from some time in the TKs myself, and reading what has been said by different people since then.
About WP, Mur caused a flood of WP too, with active days achievements. Yes, WP used to be more rare, but the WPShop also used to only have four items. Things change. TK sponsorships are supposed to be special and better than what anyone else could do alone, that's the whole point.
As for being a puppet, I highly doubt Seig will care to put in the effort to run the TKs again, and I assume it would be easy to tell if Fang were doing it. Both of them quit of their own accord, meaning they chose to be done with it. It would make no sense for them to do it again.

Edited November 29, 2012 by Pipstickz

[Ackshan Bemunah]

[quote name=Grido][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]The thing it comes down to, or back to, is public interaction en masse - from what I've seen, Zen seems rather lacking in this aspect, whereas Lightsage, I wouldn't say excels, but he's certainly better, and it's certainly something the leader of TKs has to be good at. [/font][/color][/quote]


[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]In extreme seriousness (possibly confusion), I don't see how this "qualification" applies at all to the role. From what I've seen, most of what TK leader can accomplish to improve or to degrade the Realm is not related to their public interactions at all, but mostly the private ones and the private sphere, a lot like your role or really any role...MD doesn't have politicians except those much closer to the source code than TK. [/font][/color][color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Care to defend?[/font][/color]

Edited November 29, 2012 by Ackshan Bemunah

[Grido]

You are quite correct, as far as I'm aware most of the role does not involve public interactions at all. As many pointed out, and indeed myself in my post, the two are both suitable candidates, fairly equal in most aspects, I could see very little to hold one higher than the other, what I saw was that of public interaction.

Everything is political, I wouldn't be able to effectively manage the LHOs (and the other tidbits I do) without a bit of politics, likewise the TK leader has to be a bit political as well. Any leader, regardless what it's of, has to be able to communicate effectively to the wider public, there will be times when it is necessary.

[Jubaris]

Ah, so they can manage to keep their positions when the time comes for them to start ignoring their work? Yes, it requires a bit of political wit and strings, Grido.
That's why it's better for the candidate not to have them so we can replace them as soon as work efforts and results go down. We've had experiences with such cases all over MD history.

To answer some people that quoted my words in these two voting topics:

- I pointed out Dst since she is the one that mainly deals with reporting abuses of known players. Grido doesn't have such a role, neither does Chewett, nor Burns...
No where did I mention that Dst is evil, that I supposedly dislike her, or whatever bad except that she might go easy on her friend, which was interpreted very offensively by some people, some that even voted "loyalty" as the most important quality in people (here I guess) in some other discussions, yet regard it as an insult in this subject. Hypocritical, it might seem to some.

- I wasn't putting Seigheart in bad light either, No One, if someone isn't liked it doesn't mean that he is wrong in any way. Please do not pull my words out of context... Which goes to the general public as well. I distanced myself from some points in the original post, I would prefer if people would not put words in my mouth and twist the existing ones, I made some disclaimers here which in combination with the ones in the original post, I hope are enough for normal readers not to misinterpret me radically. A horde of people treating a presumption as truth doesn't make the presumption true.

- I am not aware of their numerous so called abuses, No One, nor I am quite sure how does it relate with my post, unless you wish indirectly to state that ZenTao will make abuses too as her predecessors? Why don't you present some proofs of your claims in another topic, so they can be processed, or we all have to hold you to your word for these serious accusations? (Granted, there were several incidents where TK leaders wanted to initiate some events, which all were on public forums and received a quick "no" or "yes" from the Council. I reckon the term 'abuses' refers usually to illegal operations done in hidden)

Edited November 29, 2012 by Rhaegar Targaryen

[Seigheart]

There have been 0 illegal actions peformed by any TK member in the role of a TK. Ever.

[Miq]

As a comment do Grido, I did not forfeight my canditacy, i just did not want do vote for myself and in a proper democracy everyone should vote. So i voted for the next best after me.

[Neno Veliki]

why would one have to exclude the other? tag them both Treasure Keepers and let them work together. in this case alliance would be unnecessary burden anyway.