Loreroot Guardians

[Firsanthalas]

Guys and gals. Its becoming increasingly obvious that people are telling younglings how to defeat the Loreroot Guardians. This is something that you are supposed to figure out on your own. So in short, you are not doing them any favours. Stop telling people what to do to defeat them.

[Yoshi]

That would be through new players at the Sparring Grounds discussing it and it will slip out. Especially after people state "Their strength is their weakness" People will state the creatures they think, and then the person will agree, and then you get an influx of people that get in.

[Yrthilian]

I agree here with Firs.

The whole point in playing MD and comming up agents thoes challanges is to learn.
you dont learn if you are told how to do get around something. This is just anoying and
on the part of the people telling the new players how to get paset something is just making
MD too easy for now players.

When i played as a noob i had great fun figuring out how to defeat the guards
and learning about the stragity needed to do it and how it worked.
The point was to read the fight logs and understand the system.

Now all that is beeing done is a spoiler and telling people how to get past something
that they should be trying to work out them selfs.

Sorry i am getting anoyed over this. It may seem a simple issue to mast but it is
just unfair in my eyes and in what people gain from understanding things themselfs.


so yeah as firs said stop telling people how to defeat the gusrds is it a SPOILER

[phantasm]

agreed. These days are full of spoilers and training without fighting. It is becoming ever increasingly easy for MP3s to have the power that was once was unatainable until MP5. The other day I saw one walking around bragging about maxing out his 2nd drachorn?!!! There should be progression in this game, but it should be earned progression.

[Burns]

intersting to have that sort of thing coming from someone who uses the Golden Globe Gazebo...

i wholeheartedly agree with anything the posters before me said, but i'll also throw in that a good bunch of people wouldn't figure out how to beat them if it weren't for stupid spoilers and some less stupid lhos, and basically, i'll pick highlighting the way to beat them with red markers and blue candles any time if the other option is having frustrated players leaving before they pick up on how things work round here...

It's not like we told them 'two of those and one of that creature with so much pray power and that much VE do the trick', but if they are uncapable of reading the hints, we'll summarize things in a way they understand and tell them that wisdom comes with age rather than leave them hanging in thin air until they leave after a week of pointless tries with aramors and barrens -.-

[Redd]

Same goes for bursts. People talk about it publicly.

The simplest solution I see is to 'oblige' some people to man the sparring grounds , since it is the main location where this problem occurs.
I suggest LHO's since, not only that SG staff are rare nowadays, but also because the sparring ground is pretty much like the PC, where beginners start learning the game and ask alot of questions.

If you see spoilerific text on the chat, pm the person that he did something wrong. If you see a spoilerific conversation developing, stop it. If someone convinces you to teach him a spoiler, remind him the rules about spoilers. Its as easy as that.Pretty soon, this thing will be solved. Problem is, some people don't have the initiative react at these situations.


About some MP3s being powerful and all that, take it this way.
First, MP3 is exciting. Everyone has the same exp limit, so they all have the shot to being the top. Tactics determines the strongest. Same goes for MP4. As the game develops, more tactics are also learned, therefore more opportunity to make stronger MP3 ALTS. Thats why MP3s get stronger.

Second, as Chewy told me the other day, 'some people tries to own the lower MP levels because they think they won't last in MP5'(Or something like that)
Unlike in MP5, having the right crits in MP3 will basically sum up the whole equation of being strong. (This has some SCARY excemptions, though) So if a person has access to strong crits and thinks he won't survive in MP5 anyway, he settles in the lower MP levels to redeem his and his drach's proud arses.

[phantasm]

[quote name='Burns' date='27 January 2010 - 11:23 AM' timestamp='1264609406' post='53478']
intersting to have that sort of thing coming from someone who uses the Golden Globe Gazebo...

i wholeheartedly agree with anything the posters before me said, but i'll also throw in that a good bunch of people wouldn't figure out how to beat them if it weren't for stupid spoilers and some less stupid lhos, and basically, i'll pick highlighting the way to beat them with red markers and blue candles any time if the other option is having frustrated players leaving before they pick up on how things work round here...

It's not like we told them 'two of those and one of that creature with so much pray power and that much VE do the trick', but if they are uncapable of reading the hints, we'll summarize things in a way they understand and tell them that wisdom comes with age rather than leave them hanging in thin air until they leave after a week of pointless tries with aramors and barrens -.-
[/quote]


....shall we look back to why the MRs were so powerful back in the days? If you aren't 600 or more days old the GGG is about the only chance you have at surviving as an MP5. Plus I, as most of us MP5s didnt use the GGG until quite a ways into being an MP5. Now you will see 10 or 12 MP3 there a day. Lets not compare apples to kiwi.

[Yoshi]

... don't start arguing about the GGG in here. I think it's just that people are too helpful and almost take pity on those that don't know. And it's mostly the people that just find out how to, that they either let it slip out or don't fully know it's a spoiler and therefore tell it to everyone willingly. Redd has some good ideas, but those would be mainly for older players to initiate, and this situation will NEVER be fully 100% solved. Although we can decrease it considerably if we ALL take Redd's suggestions.

[LadyDawn]

I have spend a lot of time trying to figure out Lorerooth Languards, it was frustrating but not to the point of quitting a game but rather to the point of being "obsessed" with trying to defeat them.
Hint around "Their Strenght is their Weakness" is something that everybody learns about since it is on a billboard so I think that if you say that to somebody who is trying to get in, you are just stressing on them the importance of that sentence since he/she already knows it.
I got gazilion of tips around with time but to be honest some of them just confused me even further.
In any case, I tryed to beat them noumerous times with diferent crits and so on and so on and so on and what now maters is that I did learn a lot out of it etc. Sometimes you even can know a perfect solution but you just dont know that you know, if you get my drift.

Anyhow, the importance of beating those guards, at least as I find it, is to learn and I honestly dont see anything wrong if someone gives some good suggestion to a player who is eager to learn and who for example already learned a lot. If somebody has no motivation to learn about them and just wants to beat them in mp3 for example just for felling "alfa" without even giving it a decent try, then yes, I am agains giving them the easy way in.

What also should be taken into consideration is, that, altrough that I wasnt around earlier before "I dont know what changes" but I did heard that beating those guards was a bit diferent story back then and is harder now (aimed hit thingy). Now, I can not say if that is true considering the fact, that as I said, I was not here back then.

As far GGG thing goes... I am training in there, naturaly. If I wouldnet then my future would be... bleak. I will not moralize on if it ggg training is fair or not, since at this point I do find it fair considering the fact that noumerouss people already had a chance to work on their stats there. If the thing would be now "desolved" then, I am sorry, but I would find it unfair simply because many already benefide from it.
On other hand I also understand players from the times when ggg wasnt around and why the are disgruntled about it but at same time, dissolving it would make never players disgrunted also, since as I said, noumerous people already benefited from it.

I do have one good word about GGG training tho... and that is, that even if some of you find it as "easy gaining stats" I still beg you to differ. You need to dedicate yourself to be at that same spot for countless hours, to do countless battles and to have patience to do it considering that it is extra boring. So fine, it is easy to gain stats but at same time it is not. You still need to work hard, maybe even harder, considering the fact that some already benefited from it. So in order to stay at least slightly competive you need to work your ass off (sorry for the word).

As the "bursts" go... I have no idea what of that would be a spoiler... Is it knowing what burst is and how can be used or is there something more to it? (mind, that I am not asking what) But if it is just about what it is then... ok, I dont get it.

Anyhow... just my thoughts on the matter...

Edited January 27, 2010 by LadyDawn

[Indyra]

This think is a little strange...you all keep saying ..."they need to learn"...well ... you can;t learn unless somebody points in the right direction...now tell me who can learn without a teacher?all great discoveries were made "by mistake" then passed on by learning ...i;m sure all of you veterans had your share of help when beating those guards ...and i must agree with Burns frustration may lead new players to quitting so why not "point" them the right way?

[Firsanthalas]

Indrya,

It sone thing to help someone and teach them. Its another to hand them the answer on a plate.
There is also the land consideration here too. Every land except Marinds Bell has some form of restriction to access it. Necrovion with its gates and Golemus now with its maze and subsequently the inability to leave freely if you enter it.
So telling someone how to defeat the guardians has two consequences. It diminishes the test factor (which can be a worthwile experience) and its also tantamount to handing over the keys to Loreroot. While Loreroot is an open land and we do allow people access without having to defeat the guardians (via the backdoor for instance) we never outright tell people how to defeat the guardians.

[Handy Pockets]

With my main character, Handy Pockets, I did not defeat the Loreroot guards in mp3.
I had wonderful advice, from the likes of Awiiya and Guybrush.
Neither gave me the answer, it was one I had to learn on my own.
I appreciate that they did not tell me the answer.
Sure, I can not put on my papers that I defeated the Lorerootian Guards at mp3,
but I am still here enjoying the game.

[Burns]

Redd, there are by far not enough of us to shut up all the spoilers, specially because people don't apply any common sense when talking about quests.

Let alone considering the players 'helping' for money, as some tend to do... you can hardly charge a silver off a newbie and then give him vague hints he could get on every corner for free...

Also, people are more generous with spoilers in PM than they are in chat, should we start reading your messages to make sure you don't spoil? Next logical step is putting permanent mod-preview on everything people say? -.-

I'd hope that people had the little common sense that is required to not spoil, but as yoshi already said, people pity the _actual_ newbies, and i honestly pity them too these days, when tons of grinders lurk on mp3... but let's not go into that again...

I just mean to say, when i played mp3, there were probably 2 people with lore crits, and it wasn't just uncommon to get in, it was a goddamn national secret, these days half the active mp3 have lore crits, on high levels even, and clearly poor newbie would do anything to get a crit three times stronger than aramors, so blame them for having a huge blackmarket with spoilers of that kind...

We as Grido's minions do our best to stop them whenever we see them, and try to keep them out of the cabin, but that's pretty much all we can manange without getting slightly sleep-deprived

Edited January 27, 2010 by Burns

[Amoran Kalamanira Kol]

All I have to say is this... I see absolutely no problem with helping a newbie out who has been trying at beating the Guards for a month or more, in fact I believe that's something that is referred to as giving people who know less a bit of a break.

In concern with simply giving every newbie you see the answers? I do not agree. Give them creative hints, give them little pushes in the right direction but don't directly spill how to beat the Guardians. The Guardians are there for a reason, and that reason specifically is to teach others a bit about battle.

[Pipstickz]

[quote name='phantasm' date='27 January 2010 - 11:53 AM' timestamp='1264614816' post='53481']
....shall we look back to why the MRs were so powerful back in the days? If you aren't 600 or more days old the GGG is about the only chance you have at surviving as an MP5. Plus I, as most of us MP5s didnt use the GGG until quite a ways into being an MP5. Now you will see 10 or 12 MP3 there a day. Lets not compare apples to kiwi.
[/quote]
Just have to say something on this. First off, I rarely go to GGG, and when I do, I rarely train, but I think I do alright with fighting. The reason there is dependence on GGG is because everybody THINKS there is dependence. If everyone left GGG and started to congregate at GoE, then everyone actually fights and finds challenges and sets goals. When everybody sits in GGG, everyone sits and gains stats for no real reason except, perhaps, to win heads contest. After that, what's the point of having high stats if all you do is sit in GGG?

And on topic: I highly doubt that someone would quit the game because they can't beat the guards at MP3, especially if they know that they'll probably be able to do it later.

[Jubaris]

the reason why so many mp3s have Loreroot creatures are the CTCs

so, isn't transfering creatures contradicting to "creatures are in your mind"?

[Sir_Kamil]

[quote]And on topic: I highly doubt that someone would quit the game because they can't beat the guards at MP3, especially if they know that they'll probably be able to do it later.[/quote] <----- Whoa! Wrong!


Heaps of lpayers left the game on MP3, remember when mur made the account cleanup? If i remember correct, you have to have... 6 months of not logging in, and Unconfirmed mail, whith this, he deleted a five (i think, if i rmbr correct, it mb was 6) digit number of accounts.


Im not going to be smart, i dont consider myself a "Bright Sort", even when i tried to pass the LR guards... i did Frgn everything, and it drove me nuts.... i PM LHO, and one day MasterB said, that i should try to find an [here was a spoiler], and see what happends. and lol i finished LR guards.... nasty they are. i was given a "wannabe" spoiler, and im kinda happy about it, i was an m4 whith loced LR (LOL huh?)


so, the BEST solution is:


Dont count on the ppl's kindess/patience <--- there is nothing such thing

how to beat the newb spoiler spam?

When they attack na NPC, and they are deffeated, a POPUP whinndow jumps in whith basic oldshool LHO answers like

try to read the log, see what happened

wach the fight carrefully, what made you lose? How you can counter it?

did you explore all available land?

etc. this should make dumb ppl (like me) find the answer about the.... certain rit that needs LR
and they will no longer give spoilers.


for those who do, if screen shoooted, a person should be silenced for a Week whith a tak "SPOILER" on him

make a few public egzamples, and the ppl will be more warry about spoiling. WACH the LOGS, Store the logs, there should be a group responsible for logging & searching spoilers, i would love to torpedo a spoiler seller.

Edited February 12, 2010 by dst
Removing the spoilers

[Chewett]

[quote][quote]And on topic: I highly doubt that someone would quit the game because they can't beat the guards at MP3, especially if they know that they'll probably be able to do it later.[/quote] <----- Whoa! Wrong!


Heaps of lpayers left the game on MP3, remember when mur made the account cleanup? If i remember correct, you have to have... 6 months of not logging in, and Unconfirmed mail, whith this, he deleted a five (i think, if i rmbr correct, it mb was 6) digit number of accounts.[/quote] <----- Whoa! Wrong!

Firstly, you have quoted and mentioned two entirely different issues.

The issue you quoted was that most people who cannot access Loreroot would not likely leave. From my experiance what he said is entirely true. It is relatively hard to get into Loreroot if you dont pay attention, But since there is so much help i dont see why people would leave for that one thing.

You are talking about how lots of MP3's Generally leave. This is another entirely different issue. I would say most MP3's leave because they dont understand the game, dont like the battle system or just cant work out what you are meant to do.

So Please dont confuse two entirely different issues and pretending to be the "smart one" like you said you wouldnt.

[Blackwoodforest]

I think the point is, and what Firs tries to tell us in, at least in my eyes - try to be an example.
Back in the days I was mp3 I never have been able to enter LR because I didn´t know how to beat the guards. I asked around and really know one told me how to, all former roleplay characters pushed me in a direction and they tried to let me figure it out.
I thank all the players to not telling me because it forced me to learn how to do it and how to understand the game/fighting system in a way.

YOu can´t forbid somebody to say things but to tell them to be aware and to remember what the essence of the game, besides RP, is about.

Don´t wanna talk about GGG; wrong topic.

Just my two cents.

[apophys]

[quote name='Pipstickz' date='28 January 2010 - 06:11 PM' timestamp='1264723884' post='53550']
Just have to say something on this. First off, I rarely go to GGG, and when I do, I rarely train, but I think I do alright with fighting. The reason there is dependence on GGG is because everybody THINKS there is dependence. If everyone left GGG and started to congregate at GoE, then everyone actually fights and finds challenges and sets goals. When everybody sits in GGG, everyone sits and gains stats for no real reason except, perhaps, to win heads contest. After that, what's the point of having high stats if all you do is sit in GGG?

And on topic: I highly doubt that someone would quit the game because they can't beat the guards at MP3, especially if they know that they'll probably be able to do it later.
[/quote]

The GGG is not just there for stat gain, but for helping spread out XP among creatures, allowing you to get more and stronger creatures. Maybe this doesn't matter at mp5, but below, it's incredible.

The GGG will never be dissolved. The location may change, but it's a community thing and will always exist now that the tactics are common knowledge. I remember back when I first discovered it at the Cellar Door under MDA (I was invited by Awiiya). It was a godsend. I didn't even think about stat gain at the time, and stats are still a minor reason why I'm there (mainly I train angiens).


Back ontopic, Loreroot's back door is opened on every Halloween and rarely at other times of the year (I've seen it around 4-5 times total). Some newbies may be patient enough to wait until they see the trigger, or just are lucky enough to join around September.

You could have 2 approaches here:
1. Try to level the playing field. Those who got in by the back have an advantage, so you might be more loose with spoilers to the rest.
2. Try to teach patience. If someone is truly stuck, he can have fun roleplaying or GGG training and wait until the backdoor opens.

Personally, I'd go for #2.

Edited February 13, 2010 by apophys

[Udgard]

Actually, LR back door is open twice a month if you pick a torch..

[Assira the Black]

Pretty much all that I would have put down has already been said, like teaching the importance of learning things on your own. I offer help to some newbies through pm and when they ask me about the LR guards I give them the public hint and may tell them to read the detailed fight log. Away to start this all over and to try to stop future spoilers would possibly be to change the LR guards a bit more and make a new hint. This would in a sense wipe the playing field clean and give everyone a fresh start. Then rules on spoilers could be restated, perhaps changed, and made public. I remember when I played as Legna that I tried for a while to beat the LR guards. I didn't beat them until late in my Mp4 stage but that was because I found RPing to be more important than fighting the guards. I was really excited when I did beat them because I did it on my own and with my own knowledge.

[Firsanthalas]

Alrighty, it is still going on. Was told point blank today by an MP3 that they were told what was required.
Seriously, whoever is doing it stop!! New players can get into Loreroot by using torches or asking. There is no reason to be telling them, you are really only robbing them of a valuable lesson in the long run.
I want to be clear. There is no issue with people gaining access to Loreroot. We will let people in if they really want to see Loreroot. Defeating the guardians though is a part of the learning experience in MD, simply telling someone is not really a good thing for them.

[Miq]

Honestly i doubt that any vets or older players in general are spreading the way. But you see the new players keep together and if one knows all know. I had the pleasure of being antisocial enough not to speak much in my time (and also ignoring everything).
In general if there is nobody to tell or show them wrong then that is the obvious course the young will take. You can't keep the information, just teach others to respect rules of spoilers.

Miq

[Fyrd Argentus]

This morning's chat in the Park...

amlamea: Sunfire how is you quest on defeating the LR guards
Sunfire: need to upgrade [color="purple"]spoiler1[/color]
Sunfire: once i was 72-79
amlamea: wow.. almost
amlamea: first guard?
Sunfire: yes but now its dropping :s tried different tactics
Sunfire: yes
february: try to maxed some creatures like [color="purple"]spoiler2[/color]
amlamea: ow yah.. and some [color=purple]spoiler3[/color] are nice..

Edited September 12, 2010 by Grido(polis)
new players dont read the forum so it's fine to state what to use when pasting a chat log? oh...wait...